View Full Version : Case 580ck Not Wanting To Start
12-27-2012, 12:52 AM
ok for all you case 580 gurus out there , i have recently bought a 1974 Case 580 c-ck not sure which because its marked with both but anyways it has the case 188 diesel engine, when i got it the head was off and had been completely re done , so i put it all back together also the injection pump has been completely rebuilt, i took the pump off and checked everything out because the guy said it wasnt pumping , i got it back in and the injection pump drive shaft is in correct time as is the pump drive gear being lined up perfect dot to pointer, its getting fuel to the injectors and ive tried with the intake heater and engine block heater on, im stumped, it just cranks and cranks and cranks and nothing it doesnt even seem to want to fire off im not a diesel mechanic so i dont know what to do next , im going to buy new fuel filters for it in the morning, any ideas ?, any help would be greatly appreciated Thanks in advance
12-27-2012, 02:40 AM
Have you checked compression? Did you think to pour some diesel fuel in the cylinders while the head was off to check for stuck/broke rings?
You also might pull the injectors, turn the lines around so the injectors are out away from the engine and look at the spray pattern of your injectors. Be careful not to touch the injectors while the engine is spinning, fuel injected into the body leads to amputation.
12-27-2012, 04:08 AM
If the lines were all empty it takes a lot of crankeing to get all the air out. The Pump is only delivering a tiny little drop of fuel to each line per revolution. I am assumeing you cracked open the return line fitting where it comes from the pump. If you see good fuel flowing throught that you know fuel is going through the filters and through the pump. A full tank of fuel always helps too when priming.
12-27-2012, 08:22 AM
Are you sure the injection pump timing is correct ? It could be off 180°. One of the beat ways to determine if #1 cylinder is on TDC is to remove the engine valve cover. Then turn the crankshaft until the timing marks line up. Both the intake and exhaust valves must be closed on #1 and you should be able to wiggle them up and down if the backlash is set correctly.
12-27-2012, 08:52 PM
i took the pump off and one of the pump drive shaft seals was installed wrong so i put new seals on correctly and DOUBLE and Triple checked that the dots were lined up, i put all new fuel and hydraulic filters on today and i am getting Plenty of fuel to the pump but with the injector lines off and cranking it over im barely getting a dribble of fuel out of them so it seems to be a problem with the pump but im not sure what it is , the guy i got it from had it rebuilt right before i purchased it and it looks like new inside and out and everything seems to be lined up correctly so im stumped
12-27-2012, 11:29 PM
oh and i did pour some fuel into the cylinders when the head was off and all the rings held the fluid, im also kind of curious how much fuel does it for a lack of better words spit out each time the pump hits each injector? a little bit or a big squirt , so would cranking for a good three or four mins not get the pump primed up ?
12-28-2012, 08:28 AM
if you are absolutely positive that it is not pumping fuel it may be time do download or buy a pump rebuild manual and take the pump apart and make sure they put it together right.or take it back to them and ask them to put it on a pump test stand and check it out. there are a coupe parts inside the pump that say CC on one side and CCW on the other. you have to have them faceing the right way for the direction of rotation on your application. the pump shop should have caught that they were right when they put it on a test statnd after they rebuilt it.
12-28-2012, 08:38 AM
Let the starter cool some between tries, to be sure you do not burn it up.:stirthepot
Mine is a real pain to get primed. I think my fuel line from the tank may be partially clogged because it will quit if the tank is down to 1/4 tank.
I have to start at the line from the tank loosening fitting(s) and work fluid up filling each filter etc. Mine has that little manual pump that works only half fast.
After 20 minutes and blisters on my fingers I get the filters full then have to loosen other fittings working towards the injector pump.
Lastly I loosen that injector bleed valve and turn the engine over to squirt fuel all over myself.
Once my belly is covered with diesel fuel twice, I tighten the bleed fitting and it cranks.
Does yours have the 12V solenoid on the pump? If so make sure this is getting 12V.
I think mine clicks quietly when the key is turned on.
From reading your notes, you might have to get an injector mechanic out to look at your problem. (Preferrably whoever rebuilt the pump)
If I get actual fuel/pressure to the pump and still no luck I would need some help.
Others on this forum work on their own, but cleanliness and special tools make this hard for a "barn mechanic" like myself.
12-28-2012, 11:08 AM
Mike you need to keep one just thread open on your problem. It looks like you were getting help from a professional pump man in your other thread. His last post says it all . Maybe one of the moderators will merge your threads.
12-29-2012, 12:13 AM
yea, i figured out a few things and Thepumpguysc Is awesome very smart and knows his stuff to the T im impressed and very Grateful , How do you delete threads on here so i can delete my other one ?
12-29-2012, 11:42 AM
I actually Got The Ole Case Running , i did some more trouble shooting and im not sure if the system has to have that return flow to work or what but my return line from the last injector up to the tank was plugged , some how the po had rubbed a hole in that steel line and they had actually tried to Weld a hole in a piece of 1/4 inch steel line , the stuffs cheap buy new i would think but anyhow i replaced that line and started cranking it over , a little shot of ether and it fired right up, now on to fixing hydraulic leaks and hoses, a few cylinders need rebuilt to , Thanks to Everyone that helped with my questions im sure ill have more
12-29-2012, 04:47 PM
way to go trevor b
12-29-2012, 05:53 PM
THATS WHY I told you to remove the topcover or the return fitting and try to start the engine.[clogged return line]
IF you cant get fuel OUT, you cant get fuel IN..
Glad you got her fixed..
12-29-2012, 11:36 PM
i dont mean to sound dumb, but my memory isnt the greatest i mean once i do something i never forget it , but i have all the information on my computer at home and thats where i read everything on the forum here, and then i go to my shop where the backhoe is at and work on it so some of the information gets lost in my head between if that makes sense , i Thank you so much for the help i wouldnt have been able to do it without you Thepumpguysc i owe you, and i think you had mentioned it before , hypothetically speaking if i sent my pump to you to have it completely over hauled what would you charge, i did stop in the turbo shop thats local here and they said it is 600-700 dollars to do a rebuild that sounds kinda high to me
12-29-2012, 11:42 PM
i forgot , like i said i have a bad memory some times , i got all the cooling system hooked up and radiator put in new hoses and new antifreeze , when i put the head on there is the gasket that goes on the front of the head between the head and front engine cover which houses all the gears and the water pump bolts up to, i was assembling the top end of the engine and the front cover was already installed well i racked my brain for half a day probably trying to get that gasket in because it didnt just slide right in, i finally loosened all the bolts and was able to pry it back very gently to slide the gasket in , i felt good about the way it went in and i tightened up everything good and tight again and now i have fluid in the cooling system right at the front at where the top of the head and the cover come together there is a little water leak, i tried tightening the bolts up a little more but its still leaking , any ideas on how to remedy this problem without taking everything all back apart ?
12-30-2012, 09:56 AM
Obviously you have hurt the gasket in your attempts to install it. Assuming there are no nicks in the head or on the timing cover surface I would get a new gasket and retry it.
I have done literally hundreds of those head jobs and never loosened the timing cover. I use a big screwdriver and drive it in between the head lip at the valve cover gasket area and the timing cover and flex the timing cover just enough to slide the gasket in place. You can get something thin and use it to scrape the area clean. Good luck, If the hollow bolt is not in the water pump opening it's not a hard job at all.
I never reinstall that hollow bolt and have never had a problem related to its absence.
12-30-2012, 07:47 PM
i actually did use a big screw driver to pry it out and i slid the gasket in , ive put tons of regular gas engines together and know about damaging gaskets, and the front of the head looked pretty good , im tempted to take the entire front cover off and put a little permatex on the gasket also in case there is a knick somewhere in it , that stuff that looks like molasses , and as for the hollow bolt i never did see one so im assuming it was removed before i got the machine , i just put in regular new 3/8 bolts
12-30-2012, 07:52 PM
im not sure what thread it was in but Ron had sent me a cd parts and service manual which i just received yesterday , THANKS Ron , but im going to look in there to see if it says anything but i was just thinking , its leaking right in the middle so im wondering if its that top bolt cause i do remember trying to figure out if i should put in a short bolt or if the long bolt went through the water pump , engine cover and then into the head but ill tear out the water pump first i think and look at it maybe i can seal that hole up good with some good thread compound i mean at least its worth a try i would bet money thats where its leaking from , ill update tomorrow after i get it torn apart, its supposed to snow here this week so im really hoping to get this fixed its the only thing holding me up and i know i can make some money on snow removal around my small town which it would always be nice to recoup some cash from the project
12-31-2012, 09:33 AM
your welcome good luck
12-31-2012, 07:01 PM
... its leaking right in the middle so im wondering if its that top bolt cause i do remember trying to figure out if i should put in a short bolt or if the long bolt went through the water pump
If you look closely at the parts diagram, hopefully you should be able to see which bolt went where.
Do you know how to look at the Case parts online, or does the CD you have show a good diagram?
12-31-2012, 09:19 PM
ive been looking at the cd but it has almost 750 pages and im tryin to skip through and not miss it so its taking me a little time lol
12-31-2012, 09:40 PM
in the diagram it shows a bolt with a big i would guess 1.5 inch diameter 1/4 inch thick washer and it goes directly behind the water pump , im missing that bolt and washer , would that allow it to leak ?
12-31-2012, 10:47 PM
I am having trouble finding the correct parts diagram. I am looking at the 580C because I see no 580CK
Then all is see is the 207 engine and you listed yours as a 188?
Someone else here will know if they are not full of champagne tonight.
Happy New Year:drinkup
12-31-2012, 10:56 PM
my machine in the parts diagrams is a 580 c, but on the machine its marked ck so lets say its a C, and yes its a 188, the parts diagram i have is in pdf format and im not sure how to copy and paste photos but i can see the picture on my diagram , if i knew how to copy it over i would put it on here
01-01-2013, 12:02 AM
A 580ck is the first 580, (ck for Construction King), it has a 188.
The 580c came out about 1975, and it has a 207 engine.
The 580b also had the 188.
01-01-2013, 11:45 AM
My Machine is a 1974 580, Ck im pretty sure, its marked Ck on the loader arms
01-01-2013, 04:56 PM
according to my books the 580ck was made from 1966-'71, the 580b from 1971-'76, the 580C from 1975-1980.
All the 580s at least into the '90s are ck, (Construction King).
The 580 and 580B have the 188, the C and D have the 207.
On the 580, you sat like on a small farm tractor, with your feet on either side of the transmission, the 580b and up, had a flat floor.
If you post your serial number, we can look it up and see exactly what you have.
01-02-2013, 01:53 AM
where is the Serial number located on the machine, i know there are some numbers on the transmission and on the motor i believe , i can think of numbers a couple different places ill just write them all down when im there at the shop tomorrow , i decided to just pull the front end apart that way i can put in a new better grade gasket and make sure everything else looks good also, and having more of the machine apart i get a better sense of the anatomy of the machine , where things are and how they go together , i pulled the hydraulic pump and all the main lines in the front so i have a straight shot to the front of the engine now making it a lot easier , my next question would be , What is the best way to get the crank shaft pulley off , it looks like it has a square hole in the middle like for a half inch drive rachet or impact drive im going to try that and see where it gets me then i can get the cover off
01-02-2013, 07:08 PM
well i made a little break through today, i only had a couple hours to work on the Hoe but i got the old gasket off and i realised what happened , i made a new gasket out of some real high grade gasket material , and my question is , on the 580 c with the 188 in taking the front cover off the engine i started at the top and worked down got everything off then came time to get the crankshaft pulley off and the nut is 1/2 inch square drive, i had to make a bracket that bolted into two of the four holes in the pulley to hold the engine from turning over and i put a half inch rachet with a two foot cheater pipe on it and i Still had to heat the nut with the ole torch before it would come loose it was TIGHT ... but i got it off and made a custom made puller to take the pulley off and i got it loose but it would Not come out because of the actual frame and pump mount it hit and there was not enough room. has anyone encountered this before how did you get past it like if you need to change the front crank seal how do you get the pulley out ??? thanks
01-04-2013, 01:08 AM
i got everything apart and finally back together only have to tie up a few loose ends tomorrow and fire it back up Hopefully, i do have a question though, its about engine Timing, so for timing the engine i need to have the number one cylinder on tdc on the compression stroke, i know theres a inspection hole on the bellhousing and you can see the timing marks on the flywheel, it goes tdc-40 which seems like a lot to me so as long as i have that lined up on tdc with the pointer and then line up the front dots it should be good right ? i would hate to try and fire it up out of time and break something so any input would be great Thanks
01-04-2013, 05:13 AM
You need to know for sure whitch it is a 580ck or a 580c, the 580cks were 188 CID and all timed 8 BTDC and the 207 CID Cs were either 8 or 0 deg depending on serial number.
At one point Case sent out 0 deg timing kits to change Cs from 8 to 0 for easier starting. There is a vast difference between a ck and a c as the c was modular with engine and reverser sitting on rubber mounts in a frame and having an open driveshaft to the transaxle versus the solid cast iron bellhousing and torque tube combination used by the CK. You are correct as to having the engine on compression TDC and lining up the dots in the pump and shaft, but if all is correctly timed the TDC thing is not important till you do your final timing,, it doesnt care where the engine is as long as the dots are lined up, once the pump is properly installed to the block final timing can be done.
01-04-2013, 11:08 PM
i spent a couple hours getting it Just right today, i had the flywheel on dc 0 and the dots all lined up put it all together and it wouldnt start so i had to take Everything back out the radiator and fan and the front timing cover and i realized i had it on the wrong cylinder so i got it timed on number one tdc and lined up everything on 0 and got it running but it took some time, now the trouble i have is the fan is such a Tight fit with the radiator in there it is almost impossible to get it in with the radiator in there , i think im going to put on an electric fan but havent decided yet at least its all running and functioning as it should i believe, one problem i had is when i got it running and put it in gear it didnt wanna move it took a while then it just took off and went im not sure if there was air in the lines or if it wasnt warm enough or what, is there an adjustment on the power shutle , oh and on my machine the engine is solid mounted and no open driveshaft
01-05-2013, 07:34 PM
it sounds like a B to me LOL My 73 580b it takes a bit to warm it up before it will move. seems like the shuttle needs to warm up maybe? I thought when I first got it that it was the clutch going bad or something like that. glad to hear you got her running.
01-05-2013, 09:11 PM
i got the fan in , i know its not protocol but i got creative on the fan issue, there is just no room , the front of the radiator already rests against the return oil fittings in the frame and that gives about an inch between the water pump pulley and the radiator , so i ground the rivets on the two piece fan and made it into two pieces instead of one and put it in one piece at a time and it was a tight fit but it worked and once it was installed it works perfect without rubbing , about a quarter inch gap , so i got it running again and was going to back it out of the lean to and it would not move i sat there with it revved up for a bit trying back and forth and cycling the clutch petal and it would not move so i just played with the hoe for a bit moving some heavy chunks of concrete around and then it finally moved , but once i drove it around a bit when i put it in gear it Moved right away, WHY do they take so long to warm up , i even put a new breather on top of the trans, the next step now that ive dug with it a little bit is i have a few cylinders that need rebuilt they are leaking and a few hoses that are leaking so once i repair that i should be in great shape, does anyone know the cheapest place to buy a whole machine cylinder re pack kit ?
01-07-2013, 08:38 PM
now the biggest issue seems to be Hydraulic leaks, i need to re pack about 4 cylinders and replace about ten hoses and then ill be in good shape, and for some reason the radiator started leaking when i was digging up an old stump so i will have to take it out and have my buddy at the radiator shop here rebuild it ,