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FastZcars
11-28-2010, 01:45 PM
I have purchased a 1992 Cat VC60D with the Peugeot 4 cylinder engine. It is running on LPG.

The forklift just has no drive power. The hour meter shows 11900 .. maybe that = wore out most likely.

What I want to get is recommendations on what is wore out based on these symptoms.

The forklift will move somewhat ok on concrete flat surface. It will lift 2000lbs fine. I have not tried anything heavier than this. The hydro pump whines once it warms up. It is quiet as a mouse when you are on a cold start. Then after about 10 minutes it starts to whine. As to the real issue, it is moving the thing on soft dirt. With the tires slowly sinking in the ground, it creates enough drag that the forklift will hardly move. It is not stuck or anything, just cannot move based on the dirt pushing up in front of the tires. The engine bogs down bad. The engine is smoking from the PCV alot when it is straining under this heavy load.

I cannot figure out if the hydro pump is dragging the engine down, or the engine is just flat wore out and not making any power under a heavy load factor.

Was the Peugeot engine a piece of junk? I dont see how Cat put this in a VC40 and then put it in a VC60 weighting 10,100 lbs. The engine seems way under powered. I think I saw a HP rating of 42HP.

I can get an engine with 3770 hours. Does this sound like something usable to fix my issue?

Thanks for any suggestions.

BillG
11-28-2010, 03:09 PM
The first things that I would look at are, transmission fluid level and condition. Is the level where it should be and clean and are there any leaks, has the filter been changed? As far as the hydraulic pump whine, again the level in the hydraulic reservoir and the fluid condition. The pickup screen in the tank ( I can't remember if the VC60 uses one) clean? The Peugeot wasn't an exceptional engine but it wasn't terrible either, any idea how many hours on an overhaul as i doubt it went that many without? You could have a weak torque converter or maybe the trans is just at the point of needing overhaul. The only real way to tell is with some pressure checks and a good eye at troubleshooting. Some things to take into account are the inching valve, is it completely returning as you release the inching pedal? Just some things to check. The smoking from the pcv is indicative of excessive blow by and could be worn out but a compression test will verify it. Also although this is a pneumatic tired machine it is not really designed to operate well off a hard surface. The weight of the truck and the size of the tires show that the ground pressure will be more than most sod surfaces will support unless it is very dry.

FastZcars
11-28-2010, 03:56 PM
Thank you so much for the insight. I worked on the railroad for 10 years as a dirt operator, but that was 30 years ago.. I cannot remember much about the feel on the trans or engine issues we had. We had union mechs that had to do the service work, but I jumped in there when I could on cartridge rebuilds and engine replacements.

So, you know that inching petal you call it.. well, that I know is not working correct. I had a Mitsubishi forklift and it completely disengaged when you pressed the left petal. This Cat does not feel like it completely disengages, and the brakes are really bad on this thing.

The tank does have a screen way down inside it. The filter, well, I plan to change it Tuesday. Looks like its been on there for at least one paint spray session.

I will have the service manual tuesday also. I can get some diagnostic pressure check information from that I hope.

that engine just bogs down so bad when I try to go across the dirt yard we have. My incline to the shop is dirt/pea gravel and it just almost did not make it back in the shop. If the engine rev'ed up I would think the torque converter like it does in a car when it breaks a few vanes off. However, on a converter that locks up, the engine would bog, but also at idle and not just under a heavy load situation. If it is like a car per say. The engine idles 100% fine, and in neutral, I can Rev the engine for the lift to operate up and down just fine.

BillG
11-28-2010, 04:05 PM
Is this running on propane or gasoline? Also is the air filter clean? If the blow by is as bad as you say I would do a compression check first before I put any money into it.

willie59
11-28-2010, 04:30 PM
You're describing so many related symptoms it's hard for us to determine your problem without hearing it ourselves. But I'd venture to guess if the motor loads up real bad when you hit the dirt (and yes, that machine won't do well in soft ground) then that would indicate your torque convertor isn't shot. If your issue is mostly related to the engine just not having the power to do the work, just bogs out under load, has difficulty throttling up, I'd wage the problem is your propane system. I've worked on so many LPG systems that has clogged regulator, in-line filters clogged, and LPG carbs that are just goo inside. What LP system does it use, Impco, Bean?

FastZcars
11-28-2010, 06:36 PM
My thoughts are the engine. I just wanted to make sure those that have worked with hydro transmissions did not think maybe it was a pump issue.

It engages to forward and reverse fine on flat concrete floor. I can hard left and right the steering to swing the tail end around no problem.

It is a LPG system. The LPG system is Impco. I better go study the parts of a LPG system. I have no clue what a filter looks like. There are 2 disc looking things, and one is labeled primary pressure point. the other does not have much wrote on it. Ok.. my edit > I found this website http://www.propanecarbs.com/examples.html ... I understand what is the filter now. I will go see what VFF I have.

The Air filter is brand new.

Ok, just did the compression test. Not looking good here.
150
125
135
115

Since I dont have the service manual yet, I do not know the specs for this. I am sure 150 would have been nice across the board. :(

BillG
11-28-2010, 06:49 PM
If your readings were more equal even down to 135 wouldn't be to bad but with that wide variation I believe you are looking at some engine work here. With the blow by you are looking at more than just a valve job, unfortunately that would have been an easier task. This engine has free standing cylinders so the repairs are a little easier than a solid block engine.

willie59
11-28-2010, 07:15 PM
I agree, those numbers indicate the engine is showing some wear, gonna need a rebuild at some point, but I'm thinking it should still run at those compression readings, just don't expect it to be a jack rabbit. The most common problem with an LPG engine not running properly is the propane control system. I've taken apart vaporizer/regulators that are completely full of an oily goo inside them. Not sure, but I think it's an oil residue they put in propane to lubricate the pumps that move the fuel in production, transport, and storage. If your system hasn't been serviced in a very long time, more than likely in need of it. Impco is a very common LPG system, and if it's a 4 cyl engine, most likely has either a model J or a Cobra model vaporizer/regulator. If you have a model 100 carb, very easy to rebuild, but you should take it off the intake manifold and clean it with a spray carb cleaner, rebuild kit is simply a new diaphram. The regulator, you can get a rebuild kit for them, I've just never had good success doing so, so I always simply replace the regulator with a new one. If you have a vacuum lockoff (VFF), you can get the rebuild kit for it, again, you may need to clean it up with carb cleaner. Hope you get it sorted out. :)

FastZcars
11-28-2010, 07:16 PM
I have a Model J and VFF30 ...

The fuel seemed like an issue too. The engine will not make RPM's when it starts on the big load factor. I was thinking that if I could just get 500 more RPM out of the engine, it might pull itself better.

So, do I take this VFF30 apart and clean it? Well, the answer is here on that > http://www.pngtechnologies.com/PDF_Files/Model_VFF30_Repair_Kit.pdf

I can get one brand new on ebay however for $50.. sounds cheap to me.

Edit > Humm.. I see on the new model J and VFF that there are some nice shiny orange stickers. those stickers are looking really bad on my units. I suspect they been there way to long in life with no service.

Anyone have a guess at what color spring I have based on this being a 4 cyl Peugeot engine?

willie59
11-28-2010, 07:40 PM
Anyone have a guess at what color spring I have based on this being a 4 cyl Peugeot engine?


Well, don't know that myself. But, if your engine has a model J, and you simply order a replacement J, you could always remove the springs from your old unit and install them in the new regulator unit. That is, given someone in the past hasn't installed a new J and it had the wrong springs. Just a roll of the dice in that respect.

ke6gwf
11-29-2010, 01:03 AM
I second what Atco said.
Don't waste time rebuilding the regulator, they are pretty cheap new, and nobody seems to have good luck rebuilding them!
I have gone through quite a few Mil surplus lifts with the Impco systems, and usually replacing the reg and cleaning anything that looks like it needs cleaning gets them running pretty sweet. Check for vacuum leaks/bad hoses too.

I am going to guess that the reg is bad or about to go bad, so replace it first. If it doesn't make a major change, check your other LPG components to make sure they are clean and not gunked or sticky.
If the unit shifts decent and will spin hard, I wouldn't be too worried about the drivetrain. The whiny pump worries me. Take an oil sample and have it tested by CAT or http://www.analystsinc.com/
I am wondering if the pump is worn, or the oil is too low viscosity when it warms up, losing the boundary layer. (wrong oil put in at some time in the past?) An oil test will tell you a lot about your wear conditions and oil life anyway.
Also replace the filters, although that shouldn't affect the pump whine much... (unless the intake screen is clogged - see below)

Is the complaining pump the tranny pump or the hydraulic pump? (or are they both run off one pump?)
When the pump is whining, does it change in sound with F-N-R changes? How about lifting/lowering the forks with no-load, how about with a heavy load?
I am thinking it could be a relief/regulator valve that isn't working right when the oil warms up, and that is causing the whine.

Check all the levels, filters, etc. Take the intake screen out of the tank if it is dirty and throw it far away! When they actually start screening crud/algae out of the oil they clog up, starve the pump and cause cavitation which destroys the pump and sends metal chunks into the rest of the $ystem.

When you have the manual, take digital pictures of any interesting pages, much easier than scanning/photocopying!
Check your pressures per the book and see if anything is high or low.
Make sure to save the hydraulic and electrical schematics!

By the time you have done all that, if you haven't figured it out, fill us in on the results and we can go another round.

The Impco parts are universal so you should be able to find them local at any forklift/industrial engine shop, or online.
If you have the ability, you could take a video of it trying to run and post it on youtube and imbed it here.

Before sending this I reread the thread and got to wondering if the Inch pedal not working is related to the whine? Try to figure out why the Inch isn't working. Is it electrical? Master/slave hydraulic? I just remembered a little Clark that had a sticky slave cylinder that whined from the leakage in the inch valve. Something else to look at anyway!

Ben~

FastZcars
11-29-2010, 03:47 AM
thank you for all the insight. I have already tonight purchased a new regulator and VFF..

When I cold start the forklift, the thing is quite as a mouse in the hydraulics. The engine is the only thing you can hear running. After about 5 minutes of run time, and a few up and downs on the lift, the pump starts to slowly make noise. then at about 10 minutes, it is really whining. Whines all the time after that. Not moving, not lifting.. just whining. The same whine in FWD or REV.

I will attack the oil and filters today. I will run a magnet in the bottom of the tank and see if it pick up and metal shavings.

That inch petal bugs me really bad. I know it is not working correctly. I told the guy I purchased it from it does not work like my Mitsubishi and he just indicated that is the way Cat is. I have to put it in neutral to rev the engine and high speed up the lift.

Plan B
11-29-2010, 01:55 PM
Take some pics of the machine and what your working on. That usually helps people alot more when diagnosing things...and if your in east texas call me ill fix it for a small fee!!! :)

FastZcars
11-29-2010, 06:41 PM
Ok, I wanted to get an opinion about this air horn.

it is a CA125 carb or mixer.. whatever you call it.

the air horn as a strange spray pattern across it. It originates from the propane injection hole straight across the air horn as you can see. the color is what is strange to me. I know aluminum oxides really bad with water and especially alcohol. Anyone else seems this color and pattern before?

willie59
11-29-2010, 09:02 PM
I've seen the oxidation before, not sure what causes the coloring on yours.

I AM IRONMAN
11-29-2010, 11:28 PM
Fastzcars
I have had quite a bit of experience with the Cat Lift Trucks. The VC60D was a good machine for level areas, but even brand new it couldn't climb a ramp of any kind! I sold those machines along with all of the Cat Lift Trucks. The only way I could get one with close to enough power to climb ramps or go over some soft areas, was to go to the diesel engine Cat offered for them. Even the V50D was short on power, nearly every time, I had trouble with the low HP. One of these with over 11,000 hours can barely move under it's own power.
Sorry I can't offer any more positive news!

FastZcars
11-30-2010, 12:14 AM
Fastzcars
I have had quite a bit of experience with the Cat Lift Trucks. The VC60D was a good machine for level areas, but even brand new it couldn't climb a ramp of any kind! I sold those machines along with all of the Cat Lift Trucks. The only way I could get one with close to enough power to climb ramps or go over some soft areas, was to go to the diesel engine Cat offered for them. Even the V50D was short on power, nearly every time, I had trouble with the low HP. One of these with over 11,000 hours can barely move under it's own power.
Sorry I can't offer any more positive news!

Wow.. that is not great news. However, it helps in my expectations of what is normal vs what is wore out.

I wonder how much HP and torque the transmission can take on this lift truck. I have the service manual today now. However, there are no indications of HP and torque ratings on the 4 engines listed in the book. The XN1P, XD3P, 1404, and 4.2032

which engine are you referring to between the 2.5 and 3.3 diesels? Does the block bolt pattern stay the same on the engines for mating to the trans axles? If the bolt patterns are the same, I have the knowledge to convert the engine from one type to another. I have a machine shop and build custom parts. I can even design an adapter plate for mating of the different bolt patterns if needed, but in having to do this comes several other challenges.

I was going to buy a low hour XN1P, and just swap the engines, but if the engine is too under powered for movement on soft dirt, this is out of the question to even mess with this engine. I dont need a 8k / 10k with the bigger HP, also I have to get inside my small shop to move engines and transmissions around. This 6k is almost too big, but the 4k and 5k lift trucks have such narrow tires, those did not seem like they would work for me in moving the cars around in the yard that need lifting. The cars only weigh 3300lbs.

FastZcars
11-30-2010, 03:19 AM
I have a curious question. What is the SA stand for on the VC60D SA ?

FastZcars
11-30-2010, 07:19 PM
I have just changed the 3 oil filters I have found on this machine. Problem is, I cannot figure out were the oil reservoir is for one of the filters.

The attached picture is the filter in question. What is it filtering? Diff oil? The oil that came out of that filter is very black and seems like it has been there way too long.

The long filter off the hydraulic tank is full of cherry red oil. So, there is no way that the oil in that tank is supplying both filters. Speaking of that cherry red oil. It looks like Dextron transmission fluid GM and others use. However, I called Darr Equipment today and they indicate that the tank should have 10W Universal Hydraulic oil in the tank, not some cherry red oil.

The 3rd filter was the engine oil.

The other picture is a strainer that was in the tank fill point. Is this the strainer that someone recommended do not install back in the tank? It does look like it is coming apart. I hope the pieces stay in the tank and dont make it to the filter and then the pump if the bypass kicks in for some reason.

willie59
11-30-2010, 10:11 PM
The filter in the pic is your transmission filter. The black looking oil might be an indication of friction material in the oil. I think I would change the tranny oil and filter. Keep in mind you can't drain it all, some will remain in the torque converter. Long screen in hyd tank filler neck should remain there to prevent debris from entering system. The strainer that was previously mentioned would be a stainer on the pump suction line from the tank, it's a stainer located inside the tank and would most likely require draining the tank to remove it if it has one. Most OEM tank line strainers have a bypass valve to protect from cavitation of pump from clogged strainer. The red oil in the hyd tank could be Dexron, it's an acceptable hyd fluid, although I don't particularly like it over, say, AW32 hyd oil, but many OEM's use Dexron for hyd so it will work. But it could also be a fireproof hyd oil which is water based, has a red color to it. Not sure how you would identify which it is though, but my experience with the two, Dexron and fireproof, Dexron leaves an oily feeling on your hands when you rub them, the fireproof stuff leaves a wierd feeling film, almost like antifreeze feels on your hands. ;)

FastZcars
11-30-2010, 11:32 PM
Your are going to think this is a dumb question, but .... I see where to drain the transmission at the bottom is a nice big drain plug. However, what I cannot find is where to put the oil back in the transmission. When I was talking to Darr today, they indicated there is a dip stick for the transmission.. but guy, I have been working on cars for 30 years, and I cannot find a dipstick on that transmission. I have looked on the high side, and I have looked on the low side. I figure there might be a check plug in the side of the transmission, but I cannot even find one of those. I have looked in the service manual for this dipstick, and while I do see mention of one, there is no reference to this location. I removed that torque converter plate thinking it might be under there, but I also want to check the timing once I fire it back up.

Since the oil in that 'transmission' filter was blackish, and not the nice cherry red, that leads me to think the oil in the tank does not circulate in any way with the transmission section. However, there are hoses upon hoses that seem to cross each other and kind of lead back to the tank over all.

That oil in that tank filter is dextron in my opinion. I have smelled that stuff for many years, and if the fire proof water based one does not smell like dextron, this definitely does.

FastZcars
12-02-2010, 09:14 PM
Ok, I can now answer most of my own questions so there is at least a reference place for someone else in the future.

The most important question was " Where is the transmission dipstick on a VC60D with the serial number 2MC0.. Not 2MC1. 2MC0 transmissions do not have a dipstick on the transmission itself. There is a dipstick on the differential right behind the fork lift mast main cylinder. The differential shares its oil with the transmission, and the filter in the above picture is that filter for the transmission and differential. Now, the oil recommended for replacement is Cat T04. The unit was released however with T02, and now T04 is the replacement. From what I understand, T02 was 10w, and T04 is 30w... I might have mis-understood that part however during my discussion with the Caterpillar tech. The replacement amount of oil is about 4 gallons. Mine actually only needed 3.75.

The hydraulic oil in my tank is Dextron based on my smell test. So, I put dextron in it and all seems fine with that. Caterpillar tech indicated that T02 was the preferred oil in the tank, but I did not want to drain this tank right now.

SA stands for 'special application' as in it gets the good more powerful diesel 3.3L engine. That would have been nice to have.

The inching petal was discussed a little with the Cat tech, but I did not want to get into that just yet since I have not read the manual enough to understand how that system works. I know mine is not working correctly, and the Cat tech was not surprised. He is even the one that asked me if it was working properly.

willie59
12-02-2010, 09:54 PM
It sounds like you're getting most of your issues sorted out. I can't say for certain about your particular Cat truck, but most inching pedals work by shifting a valve spool that dumps oil pressure to the forward (or reverse) clutch packs causing them to release and give you a sort of "neutral". For example, using the inching pedal allows you to depress the pedal, disconnect drive, and throttle the engine to quickly raise mast, all without selecting N on fwd/rev lever. ;)

FastZcars
12-14-2010, 07:08 PM
Well, I want to update this and see if I can get some help in the tuning the propane carb.

I have now changed the VFF and regulator. I also changed the diaphragm in the carb.

It has gotten a little better on the power. It will now at least pull itself up the very small incline I have going into my shop. No load however. This is still the problem. When I pick up a load it lifts the load just fine. Today I lifted 3000lbs, and it came right up. However, I could not move an inch. So, I picked up about 500lbs and once I got to moving, it was at least moving. I put the load down however, and bog bog bog, no load, cannot back up. I go forward what little I can, and put it in reverse again, and finally slowly and surely, it moves to the backward direction.

The engine just does not make RPM's . It acts just like it is staving for fuel.

Ok, so i get out the service manual and look at carb adjustments. There is one problem with this however. my service manual is for a VC60 2MC1 and my VC60 is a 2MC0 serial number. The pictures in the book look completely different on the carb itself, and the adjustments do not make sense.

So, I have attached the pictures of what my carb looks like. Its reads CA125 on the very top. then on the plate that is riveted to the carb it reads..

Hoof Governor
The Pierce Company
2800FL-3000NL
S126B

that is all I can read on it for sure. Any help in tuning is appreciated.

willie59
12-14-2010, 07:52 PM
That gizmo with the riveted plate is an overspeed governor, it has a butterfly plate similar to the one in the bottom of the carb. When engine speed reaches a certain high RPM, it closes the butterfly plate inside the venturi. With engine not running or running within acceptable RPM's, the butterfly plate inside the governor should be fully open. First remove your carb, make certain that butterfly plate is open. If it is, re-install carb. Then remove the riveted plate. Start engine at idle and make sure the internal linkage is not closing plate at idle. Same thing with engine revved slightly up to full RPM. If the plate never closes, doubtful it's the cause of your problem. But if that plate is closed, either repair the governor, or disable it, your choice. :)