PDA

View Full Version : Vote for D11R or a Komatsu 475



9420pullpan
11-17-2006, 10:57 PM
im not sure how to set up a voting table but i would like to who likes what and if they have ran both etc

CascadeScaper
11-17-2006, 11:27 PM
I'd pretty much run either of them :bouncegri

Mass-X
11-18-2006, 09:22 PM
I've spent around 3,000 hours in three different D11's (two R's and and N). And just shy of 1,000 hours in a 475. Altogether I have thousands of hours in Komatsu as well as Cat dozers and have formed a few opinions.

From a standpoint of simply performance of the machine. I think the Cat wins, but not by a large margin. The D11 feels more powerful to me than the 475. For ripping, I like the way the Komatsu ripper feels to me, it seems to curl a little further which I feel works better, but the D11 makes up for it with the additional power.

I also prefer the D11's blade for hogging large amounts of material. With the taller, narrower blade of the D11, in a slot a few feet deep, more material is rolled directly over itself and back in front of the machine. Whereas in the Komatsu, more material is lost out the sides of your slot. It may not seem like much. But when the two are next to each other (with equally experienced operators) the Cat will slowly stock more material than the Komatsu.

When roughing in roads to within a few tenths I prefer the Komatsu. Overall, Komatsu's seem (to me) to be easier to grade in. And the wider blade allows for one or two less passes to get your sub grade finished.

The Komatsu dozers definitely ride smoother due to the K-Bogie Undercarriage system. It's not something you notice too much while pushing, but when backing up long cuts or tracking from one place to another, the Komatsu feels better. This may also be why they seem easier to grade in.

It seems to me that the little things are what really separate the two machines. Dowtime on Komatsu dozers always seems to be higher than Cat's. For example, the outfit I work for has a Komatsu 375 with just over 8500 frame hours, and it's on it's third engine. The machine will routinely break. Since May we've moved more than 3 million yards of material, and the 375 sat out July thru early September when we really needed it (hydraulic pumps, steering, numerous engine and track problems, etc). With 8,500 hours, the machine is beat to death.

While that may be the extreme, overall Cat's spend more time working than Komatsu's. I personally feel that a Cat dozer should be traded in after 8,000 hours in the rock they work in here in Utah. While most of Komatsu's I've been in are in sorry shape around 5,000 hours.

Numerous mechanics have expressed a preference for working on Cat dozers in contrast to Komatsu. For example, a simple wiring fix on a Cat may take 30-45 minutes. While the exact same fix on a Komatsu requires removing the floor of the cab, unscrewing a few things to get them out of the way, and then you can access the wires. It translates into a lot more time spent repairing the Komatsu than the Cat.

Ground clearance is a problem for Komatsu's as well. All of the bigger (275+) dozers we're currently running have completely caved in belly pans. They just don't sit very high off the ground and if any operator is careless and tries to straddle a windrow (again, lots of rock around here) it's a sure way to beat the belly pans right up into the machine which spells to lots of downtime and expensive fixes.

One of the Komatsu 275's we're running has an electrical problem that prevents the blade from tilting side/side (the wires to the thumb toggle switch are broken). Because of this, the blade only tilts to the right. To get it to tilt left, the blade has to be pitched completely forward, but it will then not pitch right. To fix this, the belly pans have to be pulled and about 5-6 hours of re-wiring are needed. Therein lies the problem; the belly pans are so caved in that they need to be removed with a cutting torch and then (ideally) replaced: a couple days of repairs. We can't afford the downtime so the operator gets to wear his right hand out toying with his blade all day.

I like the operator station of the Cat's a little more, better visibility, especially of the ripper. The air conditioners work better in Cat's. The door handles hold up better and overall the controls stay tighter longer. I've found that Komatsu controls start to feel sloppy 1,500-2,000 hours earlier than Cat's.

While you may save money with the Komatsu's upfront, the Cat's win in the long run. And for big, mass production work, the D11 beats out the Komatsu 475, especially in the long run.

9420pullpan
11-18-2006, 09:39 PM
wow that was what i was looking for. i dont understand why companies that want to save up front but dont look further down the road

Steve Frazier
11-19-2006, 04:38 PM
How does Komatsu's parts delivery compare to Cat's overnight guarantee?

Mass-X
11-19-2006, 07:51 PM
I had to take a few deep breaths to reply to that question in a calm, collected matter.

When dealing with the most common Komatsu machines, excavators up to PC 600, dozers up to 155, etc., Komatsu is pretty good about having parts delivered quickly. On the bigger machines, I've seen waits as long as 5 weeks.

I like Komatsu equipment, I like their parts and service department; but Caterpillar still wins.

Countryboy
11-19-2006, 10:38 PM
Same feelings here. Yancy Cat does a great job keeping our equipment going. Komatsu leaves much to be desired:rolleyes: :sleeping .

Dozer575
03-02-2007, 01:00 PM
Mas-x
What state or country are those 275 large dozers in?
Do you think maybe the reason the Komatsu's break more is because the mechanics just don't like them and haphazzardly repair them?

Deas Plant
03-03-2007, 08:55 PM
Hi, Dozer575.
You've just read the 'voice' of experience speaking in print. They are telling you excatly the same things that I have been telling for the last 2 days. Kummagutsas just don't stack up in the long run. I acknowledge that they are nice machines to run - - when new. Trouble is they lose their 'new' a little quicker than the equivalent Cat machines.

You've landed here with one HUGE Kummagutsa bias and put up a lot of posts in a very short time trying to convince people of the veracity of YOUR 'religion'. Now you're having a little trouble accepting the message from the people who really do know that Kummagutsa IS second best in the long run. Your bias is NOT my problem or the problem of anybody else on this or any other board. It is something you have to deal with or live with. And we also don't HAVE to answer your biased posts. The last few I have answered out of a desire to see the facts aired. That is finished. I will still answer any of your sensible requests for information that I can but from here on I'll just ignore any biased posts that you put up.

May I suggest that you take your blinders off - - - or just wander off into the sunset and live in your own little fairytale. It's great to see passion but even greater to see passion about something worth being passionate about. I'm sorry but Kummagutsas just don't stack up that high in my book. And their service even less so.

Best of luck, whichever way you choose to go

Steve Frazier
03-03-2007, 11:52 PM
Dozer575, everyone is entitled to an opinion, and all we ask here at HEF is that you back up any claims you make with hard facts. If you review our rules here we don't allow flaming in any form. If you feel as strongly as you do about Komatsu, you must have a reason or two and we'd like to hear them.

I must note however, that we'll never ask a member to leave due to an opposing opinion.

Dozer575
03-04-2007, 01:32 AM
http://www.komatsuamerica.com/MiningJobStory1.asp

Lots of mines pefer Komatsu Dozers. Personally I feel it is a stability issue.
I have seen alot of photos of those Cat triads rolled over. I remember them being quite tipsy on there sides.

Its not a dozer but just proves the big K can handle it.
http://www.miningreview.com/archive/031/08_1.htm

http://www.komatsu.com/CompanyInfo/press/2007011613072322452.html
In the address above it doesn't mention those D11's, or D10's but does mention D375's. You asked for proof. I worked with a D375 for some years and considering how beat up they where and how they kept going it was very impressive.


More hard proof, Komatsu wins over that over rated american dozer.
http://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/story.asp?story=8221&headline=Komatsu%20Equipment%20Ignites%20New%20Nev ada%20Gold%20Rush

Now why would they buy an inferior dozer?
http://www.minefinders.com/News/january18,2007.html
Maybe they know something you don't?

The hard proof is in the purchases of Komatsu dozers, by large mines that don't want junk that has to be constantly worked on.

Deas Plant
03-04-2007, 02:29 AM
Hi, Dozer575.
Steve said 'hard' evidence. You have given five, that is a whole F-I-V-E, links to news articles about mines/companies that have bought Kummagutsa gear and you want to claim that as 'HARD' proof of your 'religion'.

I wonder how many artciles there might be out there about companies/mines that bought a whole slew of Cat gear? My bet is a LOT more than there is about Kummagutsa gear sales but I have better things to do than waste my time looking for them when I KNOW the answer.

I'll believe you when you post the TOTAL SALES FIGURES, world-wide for BOTH Cat and Kummagutsa for all new plant sold to the mining and oil industries for the 2005/2006 financial year, IF they show that Kummagutsa is the CLEAR winner - - - which they won't.

Wanna take it on?????????? C-mon, PROVE your point.

Over to you.

Squizzy246B
03-04-2007, 03:18 AM
I primarily come to this forum to "gauge" practices and equipment in this industry. (aside from clowning around) I'm a very small operation but we are looking to expand. To that end I probably give a little more salt to those owner operators on this forum...small guys like me...or have been like me and have now got bigger...Nac, I think is a classic example(no offense to heaps of others thats just who come to mind first:o ).

Anyways, I'm always on the look out for those beating a drum. I guess I need to know where they are coming from in order to add some worth to their comments. Kaiser (KSSS) is a good example...he likes his CASE machinery, lets us know about it...but most importantly...he puts his machinery money where his mouth is. I can't ask more than that and I respect his opinion.

Being an Owner Operator ain't everything...lets face it, when it comes to multi-million dollar machinery most of us can't even dream of owning these machines. Its then worth listening to unbiased, experienced operators who can pass on their knowledge.

Case in point, despite having been in and out of one of limestone quarries numerous times I finally requested a tour and made the time to attend. I got to talk to their oldest and most experienced dozer operator. He drives a D10 that has had two in-frames and has 28,000 hrs on the clock. About the sum of his answers to my questions was "it ain't pretty but it gets the job done, when the others are aving a rest" as he points his thumb in the general direction of the repair workshop. I wont tell you what is in the workshop and the subject of a 4 year legal battle but I took that operator's comments as well qualified comment.

At a recent industry conference a financier gave a speech about how you are married to your wife/husband and not your machine.....I know...its hard to accept...:rolleyes: ... but blind brand loyalty has no part in effective business decisions. I'm far from being a "Cat Man"...but I know what I'm getting with Cat...and thats the best parts support in the world. Dealers of all makes need a good Kick in the rear from time to time but manufacturer's like Cat don't "rest on their laurels" (although the dealer might). I have recently purchased a Yanmar mini....the machine is excellent...but the dealer is letting the show down.... I'm not unhappy but maybe I should have gone with the Hitachi:confused:

So when you blow in here beating your drum....go for it......but some of the comments I have read lately make me wonder if there is not some vested interest or ulterior motive at heart.

More Dozer talk please:cool2

You can bet your bottom dollar there is lots of people (who do have some vested interest) following this thread....they are called "Guests":my2c :thumbsup

Wulf
03-04-2007, 03:38 AM
Regarding the large mining dozer market... how I see it currently is that the larger worldwide mining groups will look at their mining operations and determine that they need x # of dozers for x # of years/operating hours and how much can Cattagusta or Kummagusta guarantee their machine availability and how much they can guarantee their operating cost per hour.

Once locked in to those type of contracts those manufacturers and/or their dealers will have to meet their contractual obligation irrespective of whether the sprocket is elevated or conventional and whether the operators enjoy running the machine or not.

Kind of takes the fun out of things but the bean-counters will win eventually when they base it on initial cost, machine availability, parts pricing and eventually calculate operating cost per hour.

Dozer575
03-04-2007, 05:53 AM
Squizzy, well said.
On some machinery I have no brand loyalty. It is only when pure stupidity enters the engineering and design departments that I take sides.
There are so many times that I have seen american manufactures regress when it comes to designing a product. And when cat fooled with a decent design like they are now slowly moving back to on mid size dozers, specifically the standard oval track layout. I had to move on. If you go back to the days of the D9H and the D355 and study the construction of both those machines, it should become apparent which one is built stronger and better, even the simple things like the seat. The story about the D10 is a good one, I would take it that machine was pretty old, like maybe before the electronics age? That explains it all. Nowdays all it takes is a bad wire a crapped out transister or connector and a multi thousand dollar tractor is down for the count. I would like to know what was in the shop and why?
And 4 year legal battle? Gosh what keeps going wrong?

Tigerotor77W
03-04-2007, 11:24 AM
http://www.komatsuamerica.com/MiningJobStory1.asp

Lots of mines pefer Komatsu Dozers. Personally I feel it is a stability issue.
I have seen alot of photos of those Cat triads rolled over. I remember them being quite tipsy on there sides.

Its not a dozer but just proves the big K can handle it.
http://www.miningreview.com/archive/031/08_1.htm

http://www.komatsu.com/CompanyInfo/press/2007011613072322452.html
In the address above it doesn't mention those D11's, or D10's but does mention D375's. You asked for proof. I worked with a D375 for some years and considering how beat up they where and how they kept going it was very impressive.


More hard proof, Komatsu wins over that over rated american dozer.
http://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/story.asp?story=8221&headline=Komatsu%20Equipment%20Ignites%20New%20Nev ada%20Gold%20Rush

Now why would they buy an inferior dozer?
http://www.minefinders.com/News/january18,2007.html
Maybe they know something you don't?

The hard proof is in the purchases of Komatsu dozers, by large mines that don't want junk that has to be constantly worked on.

Just a reference: in here, http://www.minefinders.com/News/january18,2007.html, the author notes that the D61 is a Cat D8 equivalent and the D155 a D6 equivalent... other way around.

I'm also not surprised that any of this is transpiring -- Cat's dozer production is booked out a ways...

biggixxerjim
03-04-2007, 01:25 PM
Squizzy, well said.
On some machinery I have no brand loyalty. It is only when pure stupidity enters the engineering and design departments that I take sides.
There are so many times that I have seen american manufactures regress when it comes to designing a product. And when cat fooled with a decent design like they are now slowly moving back to on mid size dozers, specifically the standard oval track layout. I had to move on. If you go back to the days of the D9H and the D355 and study the construction of both those machines, it should become apparent which one is built stronger and better, even the simple things like the seat. The story about the D10 is a good one, I would take it that machine was pretty old, like maybe before the electronics age? That explains it all. Nowdays all it takes is a bad wire a crapped out transister or connector and a multi thousand dollar tractor is down for the count. I would like to know what was in the shop and why?
And 4 year legal battle? Gosh what keeps going wrong?

What keeps going wrong is they never sell the damn thing.

I am somewhat of a Cat loyalist, but there are other good machines made as well for some markets, for one, I think I would rather have a new Deere RTH than a cat. I think that deere makes a better machine in that field. Dozers, T-Hoes, pans, ADT's....... Cat wins hands down. No one else even coes close.

And second the reason that Cat went with the Oval track (I believe, from an operators standpoint,) is to have a slightly larger dozer than the D5 with a PAT blade that is better at transversing slopes than a high track, making grade slopes and such less nerve ratttling. They still offer a High track D4 and up, so you know they havent "faced the facts" and ditched a proven system. They have just offered more choices for application.

I recently ran a Deere 850J LGP, and man did that thing kick ass!!!! Nice 36" wide pads, PAT blade, tons of weight and power. When it comes to grading out thousands of yards of topsoil like I was, I think I'll take the Deere. Making large cuts? Ill take a high track.:my2c

Steve Frazier
03-04-2007, 01:47 PM
Here's the thing Dozer575, in all the posts you've made touting Komatsu, you've made only 2 short references to actual seat time in the machine and no reference to ever running a Cat. So just what are your qualifications to making the statements that you have? Do you have enough time in both machines to make a fair comparison?

As has been stated, anyone here can do a search of any brand machine and find both positive and negative articles on them. We'd prefer to hear about personal experiences and so far you've only touched on that fleetingly. Posting a link to a Komatsu web site to support your statements is actually pretty comical.

I'm somewhat loyal to Cat, I've had excellent service from both the machine and the dealer who is only 10 minutes away. I've never run a Komatsu so I can't say anything about it positive or negative, but I compared Case, J/D and N/H when buying and found Cat best suited my needs. I am not close minded however, and if another company has come out with a machine that will do a better job than my Cat, I'd like to hear about it. So far you've offered nothing to support your claims.

What I did find interesting is in the last link you provided about the operation in Mexico. In that article they found the need to inform the public which Cat machine the Komatsu listed would compare to. That in itself says a lot about the mark that is to be compared to.

Lashlander
03-04-2007, 05:58 PM
:IMO there's a troll loose. He's just tryin to :stirthepot then when :shf he will be gone. If not he can believe what he wants, I don't think anyone here is going to change his mind.:deadhorse

Dozer575
03-04-2007, 06:51 PM
:IMO there's a troll loose. He's just tryin to :stirthepot then when :shf he will be gone. If not he can believe what he wants, I don't think anyone here is going to change his mind.:deadhorse

I thought that there was not suppost to be people name calling etc?
When ever someone posts facts that goof up a belief in a certain brand of machine, then he or she is named a this or a that? And if that person jokes a bit, they are also named a this or that? I don't understand.

PSDF350
03-04-2007, 07:12 PM
I thought that there was not suppost to be people name calling etc?
When ever someone posts facts that goof up a belief in a certain brand of machine, then he or she is named a this or a that? And if that person jokes a bit, they are also named a this or that? I don't understand.

:Pointhead What facts:beatsme

Dozer575
03-04-2007, 07:16 PM
:Pointhead What facts:beatsme

Other posts on this site.

digger242j
03-04-2007, 07:26 PM
Dozer575,


I thought that there was not suppost to be people name calling etc?

From the rules:


Personal attacks of any kind on other members will not be tolerated. While disagreements will arise, they must be handled in a mature manner


So, you're right. Although, I'm not sure how somebody might express the opinion that somebody else is a troll without using the word, so I'm not sure it's actually "name calling".

Also from the rules:



This site is designed for the exchange of information. It is not however, intended to provide members with a forum to trash one manufacturer over another...



Terms you have used:

"Cat crap", "Catacrapa", "Catacrudies", "catsypatsy's" .

So, you see, citing the rules is a two-edged sword.

From the reaction you're getting, it seems to me, watching from the sidelines, that others are finding your posts inflammatory. Perhaps you should take that into account, and reconsider the manner in which you express your opinions, lest you begin to seem to be the instigator of the immature behavior...

Dozer575
03-04-2007, 10:34 PM
Dozer575,



From the rules:




So, you're right. Although, I'm not sure how somebody might express the opinion that somebody else is a troll without using the word, so I'm not sure it's actually "name calling".

Also from the rules:






Terms you have used:

"Cat crap", "Catacrapa", "Catacrudies", "catsypatsy's" .

So, you see, citing the rules is a two-edged sword.

From the reaction you're getting, it seems to me, watching from the sidelines, that others are finding your posts inflammatory. Perhaps you should take that into account, and reconsider the manner in which you express your opinions, lest you begin to seem to be the instigator of the immature behavior...

I was just doing what the other guy was too, I thought it was just to be funny. He was using Komagutsu or what ever. So agreed we all should stop that. Thank you for pointing that out.

Lashlander
03-05-2007, 12:53 AM
I thought that there was not suppost to be people name calling etc?
When ever someone posts facts that goof up a belief in a certain brand of machine, then he or she is named a this or a that? And if that person jokes a bit, they are also named a this or that? I don't understand.

I'm sorry.

Deas Plant
03-06-2007, 09:04 AM
Hi, Folks.
Re name-calling and product trashing: Throughout my posts here and at other sites, I have called Komatsu machines 'Kummagutsa'. I am not about to stop using this term just because it gets up the nose of ONE poster on ONE BB who seems to want to put up arguments that many others disagree with and then ignore any and all suggestions that he put up some indisputable proof of his arguments - - - like comparative sales figures.

I began using the name 'Kummagutsa' back in 1973 when all 3 'Kummagutsa' machines on the job that I was then working on got bogged in the same bog hole AT the same time. A D55S loader went down first, a D60A dozer sunk trying to rescue it and another D60A did the submarine thing trying to rescue those two. It took a Terex 82-30 dozer to get them all out. There wasn't a Cat machine on that job.

I do not believe that Kummagutsa products are trash or junk, at least until they wear out which, unfortunately, they seem to do quicker than similar machines produced by their main competitor. I have actually enjoyed operating several Kummagutsa machines, notably a GD825 grader. However, I do see that some Kummagutsa machines have some design faults and I will not back down from listing and describing those faults. I also don't believe that they have the length of service life engineered into them that their main competitor seems to have.

That is not to say that other manufacturer's machines don't have design faults. They do but that Kummagutsa loader linkage one is the longest-running design flaw that I think I have ever seen in any machine if, as I suspect, it is a hangover from the old Hough loaders. I do have to admit that I have not yet operated a Kummagutsa loader built since about 2004 so they may have changed it without seeking my permission and/or without telling me. How dare they???????????

As for pen friends in Australia who send photos and details of the mostly Kummagutsa dozers chaining down here, I don't know what 10 square mile part of Australia that might have been in but I stand by what I said earlier about only ever having seen 2 Kummagutsa dozers engaged in chaining work. And I either did chaining or saw it done in 3 states over 30 years before it was mostly stopped.

Now I am not saying that the gentleman who claims to have the pen friend DownUnder is a liar - far from it. I just dispute the claim that Kummagutsa was the preferred machine for chaining and I have the evidence of my own eyes, which were actually there on the front of my face looking at it, to tell me that this was NOT the case anywhere that I did or saw it.

As stated elsewhere, my main aim on this site and others where I post is to share my 40+ years of knowledge and experience with those who have less of either or both as I see no point in spending 40+ years gathering the knowledge and experience and then taking it all to the grave with me.

I try at all times to present the truth of the matter, to the best of my knowledge. If this should happen to upset some people, I don't see that as being my problem since I don't deliberately set out to upset people, only bring out the truth to the best of my knowledge and understanding. And I am always open to correction. You see, I reckon if I ever stop learning, I'll be dead from the neck up.

Mass-X
03-07-2007, 10:36 PM
Sorry I haven't responded sooner. Been swamped at work.

575: " What state or country are those 275 large dozers in?"

I'm in Salt Lake City, Utah. The project I'm working on is just outside Park City.

"Do you think maybe the reason the Komatsu's break more is because the mechanics just don't like them and haphazzardly repair them?"

I don't believe that to be the case. We have four mechanics on-site full time. One of them is the company's master mechanic. He's the one who pushes hard with the owner to buy Komatsu dozers and not CAT's.

He thinks he can prove to the operators that Komatsu's are better. Because of this he's hell-bent on the machines running better than our CAT's.

That doesn't happen and has kind of become a joke on the job.

One of the other mechanics we hired from our local Komatsu dealer where he'd worked as a mechanic for them for 8 years.

He knows Komatsu's like the back of his hand and in his opinion, when it comes to dozers, Komatsu's can't stand alongside a CAT. I agree with him on that.

I've had the opportunity to operate D61's all the way up to 575's. I've run every size CAT dozer. The Komatsu's have their place.

The D65, D85 and D155 are finishing machines if there ever was one. A D5 or D6 will struggle to keep up when doing light, accurate finishing work.

In long pushes in soft material, a 575 will out push a D11. But when you weigh all the other pros and cons of both machines. I'll take the D11 any day.

I've been on a few jobs with extremely tight deadlines and was glad I had CAT equipment to back me up.

I was the grading foreman on an international airport runway widening project. I had fourteen 631's, two D10's pushing and a D9 ripping, that had to move 15,500 yards of material in 10 hours during an extremely tight schedule while jets were diverted to another runway. Haul distances were 1750-1900 feet.

Those machines were pushed extremely hard in very tough conditions and I had my fingers crossed the whole time nothing broke down. Had just one dozer gone down, the window to get the work done would have been lost.

I work with Komatsu dozers daily and they break down, daily.

One phase of the project I'm on is 5 1/2 weeks behind schedule because the two dozers that have been working it have broken down so many times. One machine has 8500 hours, the other 2100. There's no excuse for their performance.

The amount of money they've cost the company in down time would have paid to buy equivalent sized CAT machines up front.

Simply put; when it comes to dozers, I prefer CAT.

Dozer575
03-23-2007, 11:33 AM
The Cat break down daily as well.
Ask Mr Ozdozer about D375 Komatsu's.
And about Cats breaking down.

Deas Plant
03-23-2007, 08:21 PM
Hi, Komatsu D575.
Several weeks ago I suggested to you that you present proof of your arguments that Kummagutsa was outdoing Cat in sales figures, or at least in the their percentage increase over the last 12 months - or 2 years - or 10 years. You have so far failed to do so. This leads me to suspect that you can not do so and that all your arguments are based on sentiment and NOT fact.

In fact, I'd BET on the sentiment-based argument bit. You see, all the word that I'm hearing is that Kummagutsa is indeed coming a gutsa in the sales race, at least here in DownUnder. Their service record is not the least of their worries either. They don't seem to have enough field mechanics to handle the demand and they are continally having to FLY parts in from distant places to meet customer's needs.

F'rinstance, a Kummagutsa dump truck, and not even a BIG one, blew a steering pump several weeks ago on a job that I was on. This failure happened about 11.00 am on a Thursday. The truck was NOT up and running again until mid-morning the FOLLOWING Wednesday - - - - 'cos the parts had to come from some distant place.

On top of that I have heard that at least one major quarry chain DownUnder has cancelled its purchase contract with Kummagutsa and gone back to Cat and other customers are considering similar moves. Another major quarry chain bought a WA 500 loader for use as a sales loader about 15 months ago. I'm told it will be the ONE and ONLY.

Does all of that look to you like a manufacturer in ascendancy. If it does, please tell me where you buy your rose-coloured glasses so that I don't make the mistake of going there.

Mass-X
03-23-2007, 08:27 PM
Dozer575: "The Cat break down daily as well."

That may be true elsewhere, but it doesn't mirror my experience. I've worked for three companies that require hourly equipment/crew reports. This has given me a huge pool of information to draw from in regards to equipment performance. The CAT's spend a lot more time operating than the Komatsu's according to this data.

Dozer575: "Ask Mr Ozdozer about D375 Komatsu's. And about Cats breaking down."

I don't need to. I work on a job with a dozen of both brands daily. I currently have to account [hourly] for the performance of a D8RII, a D-155AX-5, a D10T and a Komatsu D375A.

I know what I see firsthand. And like I mentioned earlier, I've worked for two previous companies that require hourly equipment reports from the operators and foreman's.

I've had the privelege of reviewing my own monthly/yearly spec's from my own crews as well as those throughout the company.

I've based my opinions of machine performance on that, as well as my firsthand experience, not supposition or conjecture.

16H
03-26-2007, 09:27 PM
to put my 2 cents worth in I personally prefer the big cats the komatsus are ok in a certain application. Now a common theme seems to be that every body wants proof of which is better, so here is my opion and proof,
I work in one of the largest coal mines in Australia and of the 35 odd bulldozers onsite(including contractors) there is not a single komatsu dozer on site, that is not to say we have not tried komatsus we had 3x 475s only 2 were in service as the other died at about 17000hrs completly buggered not worth the rebuild so it was used for parts to keep the others going, this is not to say they are junk, a 475 WILL out push a D11 in good dirt but try using a 475 in the pit and you are asking for trouble they are not as nimble on there feet as a D11 and at the end of the day you can still walk off a cat but after a long night on a 475 I found that I was worn out and sore all over. We had a new 475XT on trial for a 1000hrs and were given the option to buy at a very very good price but knocked it back as all the operators gave it the thumbs down.
So there is good and bad for both brands but operator acceptance initial cost and dealer support are the big issues and I know that cat wins hands down in two of these catagories, If I had to choose I would pick the D11 for versatility reliabilty and operator comfort thats just my opion
So D575 I ask how many large scale open cut mine sites are exclusivly Komatsu?????
Just a footnote how good are the D10Ts, I got to spend a full shift on one the other night and I was impressed to no end! I reckon they are bloody awsome!!!:notworthy
I hope my experience has answered some questions and not thrown fuel on the fire!!

Wulf
03-26-2007, 11:33 PM
... died at about 17000hrs completly buggered not worth the rebuild

More fuel to the debate 16H... good on yer mate...

So what's your outfits normal process for large dozer mid-life rebuild 16H?

Generally in Canada we would expect a D375/D10 or D475/D11 to run to around 12,000 hrs before overhaul which is the most cost-effective way of ensuring major components can be overhauled at minimal expense and operating cost-per-hour can be controlled. It can be pushed out further based on actual experience when components are analysed and a better understanding of component condition can be made.
No matter how well a part is made, its very hard to determine turbocharger, or injector life and a defective injector can wipe out an engine in hours, just as a steering clutch plate can take out a transmission in a similar period.

By the way 475XT... what is that as we don't have them over here to my knowledge.

16H
03-27-2007, 03:37 AM
I think they try to do a mid life at around 15000 but if the machine is still going well they will try to get every last hr out of it! we have 2 D11s that have nearly 30000 on them they have had a full change out of componets and they just keep going!! one of the old girls I regard as the best pushing dozer on site this particular machine works a prestrip dump with a heap of 797s running at it.
The 475XT was a field trial machine the under carrige was a new design that was being tried, this machine was trialed at a few diffrent coal mines in QLD but never really took hold, It wasnt a bad machine I didnt spend much time in it but I wasnt impressed for a brand new machine:( It did seem a bit plasticy in side the cab and I think it would be lucky to last 10000hrs, it certainly looked the part but I dont think it would last in our harsh mining environment, or the rough treatment by some of our so called operators!
Like I said earlier Im not trying to fuel the fire, just my opion from what I have seen and done, for straight forward bulk pushing komatsus are great just not in the pits or around excavators. that being said we have recieved our 3rd carry dozer which I am told are worth $600000 more than a normal D11 (not sure just what I have been told!):beatsme

Deas Plant
03-27-2007, 04:32 AM
Hi, 16H.
Welcome to the 'Great Debate. Who cares if your comments throw fuel on some people's fires so long as they are the truth?

What you have said is what I keep hearing from up your way (I'm down in the South-East.) and bears out what I see all around me down here. The general consensus seems to be that Kummagutsa has only about 2/3 the working life of the equivalent Cat to first re-build.

There HAS to be a reason or reasons why there are SO MANY Cat machines on so many jobs and so few Kummagutsas. And most of the Kummagutsas that I do see seem to be excavators.

There are a lot of people around who like theKummagutsa excavators and I have to agree that they are not bad. However, back in 1990, I was running a Kato 1880 Mk 2 which had spent most of its working life with a set of demolition shears doing demolition and processing scrap steel. At the time of this little story, it had around 6,500 hours on it. The same company also had a PC400 excavtor with about 3,000 hours.

Everybody ('cept me) reckoned the PC400 was far and away the better machine - - - - - until we had them working opposite sides of the same drainage ditch. Then it soon became obvious that the only thing the Kummagutsa PC400 could do better than the Kato 1880 was walk. I was digging 5 buckets to his 4 ALL the time and 4 buckets to his 3 a lot of the time and I wasn't skating all over the place while doing it. The Kummagutsa operator had to continually reposition his machine 'cos it kep skating toward his digging area. And I can tell you that it was the machine, not the operator, that was responsible for the skating 'cos we swapped machines for a while and I couldn't get back on the Kato quick enough. It performed every function except walking faster and with more power than the PC400.

This doesn't have a lot to with D11s or Kummagutsa D475s but it does show that people's perceptions are not always right.

Komat04
03-29-2007, 10:00 AM
I have some extensive dealings with D11R, D11RCD, Komatsu 475 and the 575
I was a service manage for a Komatsu dealer in the US then became the Training Manager/Technical Coordinator. I have spent the last 8 1/2 years working as the Maintenance Coordinator for a surface mining company where we have a 4 D11R's and a D11RCD. When I was at the Komatsu dealer I was in charge of the first D575CD to be built. We also had more D575's than any other dealer in the world. We had more D475's than all the other dealers combined at one time.
I think which one is better is truly determined by what YOU want to make of it. We had 475's out on jobs that ran 97% availablity and above day in and day out. And I am talking about tractors that were running with 20,000 hours and above. We had tractors on jobs where the mechanics or operators felt like "this is Japanese Junk" and they are taking our jobs. On those jobs, they did not perform as well. They would run the machine till it wouldn't move before telling anyone about a problem. But, given an equal opportunity, the differences between the D11R and the D475-5 will be in your personal perception.
I have read where people expect to rebuild engines at 12,000 hours. Either Tractor has the ability to make that number. I am running 5 D11's now. I have one that has 43,000 hours on it. The engine has been rebuild once, at 27,940 hours. The transmission was built at 20,000 hours. I normally see more than 20,000 hours out of our D11 engines, WITHOUT losing the core.
I have 777's running with 43,000 plus on the engines and still having great oil samples and running great.
My point is, with proper maintenance and care CAT will perform. But, with the same attention Komatsu is their equal.
Also something to think about, Komatsu is offering some impressive warranties on new mining equipment right now. And equally impressive exchange components. When you look at the cost per hour, and Komatsu will put it in writing, they will guarantee it to be less than Cat. Not something that can be done if their product doesn't perform.

Countryboy
03-29-2007, 07:51 PM
Welcome to HEF Komat04! :drinkup

Steve Frazier
03-29-2007, 08:54 PM
Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums Komat04!!:drinkup

Thanks for the fine post! We've been waiting for a reply like yours for quite some time now and I appreciate your honest input.:thumbsup

Wulf
03-29-2007, 11:35 PM
Thanks for the fine post! We've been waiting for a reply like yours for quite some time now and I appreciate your honest input.:thumbsup
I would echo that Steve, you don't get much better exposure to both sides of the large dozer business than that :notworthy

surfer-joe
03-30-2007, 01:26 AM
Interesting post from komat04. I probably know him from my time in Kentucky and West Virginia in the coal mines.

I ran my first Komatsu in 1971 outside Denver, Colorado. It was a 155A with the Jap Cummins engine. It was a powerful machine, much better than a D8 at both ripping and dozing. It was also slightly larger than the 8, made that way on purpose. But that tractor couldn't be run at full power more than a couple of minutes as it would seriously overheat. Knowing what I know now, I suspect that a simple adjustment to the fuel system would have taken care of the problem albeit maybe at slightly lower power.

I ran that thing for about a month, then a deputy sheriff showed up one day and wanted to know if it was mine. I hastily assured him it wasn't and told him who it did belong to. He made a couple of calls and before long a lo-boy showed up and hauled it away. Turns out the machine had been stolen in Salt Lake City just before I started running it. The outfit I was working for at the time was a mafia front contractor out of Colorado Springs, a fact I didn't find out for quite a while.

On the east coast in the eighties I ran into more Komatsu's. Construction was going so good you just couldn't find enough machines of any kind to buy or rent. I tried the Komatsu grader in Maryland, did not work well. Did use some little D31's and Dresser TD8's to finish a road job as the Cat D3"s we had kept burning the nylon plugs out of the differential cases and would lose all their oil. The state DOT didn't like all that oil on their nice clean sandy slopes. The TD8's really saved our butts though. They ran every day -- all day.

We were desperate on a dam project in New Jersey a year later for iron, but the operating engineers local there weren't of a mind to allow Komatsu's on the project. They heard I was looking at renting a new Liebherr and raised holy hell. My boss and I found some old Cat D9's and 8's, and then spent a fortune trying to keep them running for our two-shift seven day a week operation.

Over to western Pennsylvania I needed some low-ground pressure cats in a D6 size. Beckwith managed some but ran out so I rented a D65 Komatsu from Anderson's. It worked OK, but damned if it didn't have an overheating problem and it used fuel at prodigious rates. Anderson never did get it right and out of the half dozen or so LGP's I had, it was the first to be let go as work slowed down. The sales and rental manager at Beckwith went nuts when he found out we rented the Komatsu and nearly fired his entire sales force over it. The next two LGP 6's we got from them were traded from a dealer in Ohio for a couple of new D9's and a new 16G. He vowed we would never have to rent a Komatsu again in his territory.

From there to western Colorado to a uranium tailings disposal project I soon went. The contractor there had several Komatsu 355's surplused from a gold mine project in southern Colorado and one or two from up in Montana or Idaho. We were trying to push Cat 651B's with these tired and underpowered old girls plus doze and rip in some of the nastiest rocky soil I've ever encountered. The final drives couldn't stay together and neither did the engines and we gave up trying to patch them. Soon to arrive was a well worn Cat D10 pushcat, some D9H's and a couple of newer D8N's. The 10 needed a lot of TLC before it went to work and during it's sojourn with us for the next year. Between engine, transmission, finals, brakes, final drives and hardbar I probably put over $200,000 in it, but once it was spruced up, it pushed like nobodies business. That Cat had somewhere over 35000 hours on it at the time, and I would cross paths with it again a few years later.

This job also used some new Komatsu WA600 loaders and two new PC650 excavators, plus a couple of Dresser 560's. We had good luck with the 600's other than some minor problems. The 560's also were a fine machine, fast and powerful, more so than the 600's. There was one D65 that gave us problems with the transmission, a fairly low hour machine. We swapped it out for a TD15 finally. The 600 loaders impressed me as I was pretty familiar with Cat 988's. For one thing the center pins held up much better as did the loader arm pins and bushings. The cabs were also better and tighter, even after several thousand hours of work. I had to cut the buckets apart at the end of their time with us as radioactive material had gotten inside the interior spaces and the DOE wouldn't let them off the site untill we cleaned them out.
One of the PC650's was always weak and troublesome and the local dealer and our own in-house dealer people never did make it right.

To West Virginia then and another strip mine. There were several Komatsu D375's with varying hours in use from about 4000 up to 8500. They were down a lot with minor and major problems and the mine was way behind on reclamation. We brought in six new Cat D9N's and all of a sudden the Komatsu's were dead meat. The operators were a little skittish at first with the high-sprockets on steep slopes, but soon felt fully confident with them.
I had four or five Komatsu end-dumps in the 777 Cat size there, again not very reliable and the brakes were plumb dangerous for a hill-top mine operation. These were to run with some old 777B Cat's, but couldn't. There were a couple of Cat D11's there, I'd get some stick time once in a while on them when they were way out away from everyone else. The UMW was all hate and discontent about supervision operating the equipment. Further note on getting rid of the Komatsu's, nobody wanted them for any reason, either for sale or trade. Cat Financial wouldn't touch them. We finally shipped them off to an auction somewhere in Ohio and they didn't draw enough to pay for the lo-boys. Rish Equipment, the Komatsu dealer, did their best for us for us and were a fairly large and well stocked operation. But there wasn't a thing they could do to persuade us to take on more Komatsu dozers.

Back west to New Mexico with Peter Kiewit, but no Komatsu's there. Then north to Nevada gold mine tailings pond construction. No Komatsu's there for that, but the old D10 from Grand Junction showed up with some 651E Cat's to push. The boys doing the mine ex across the road had some WA800 Komatsu loaders, and a 600 or two. The haul trucks were early 785 Cat's. Dozers were all Cat's.

From there to Kennecott Copper near Salt Lake City. we used a WA600 loader and some PC400 excavators doing environmental remediation work. The 400's were a nice machine, but did not have the power I expected them to. My old friend the troublesome PC650 showed up from where it had been working in Las Vegas. Unfortunately, it was in even worse shape than when I had last seen it two years before in Colorado. (the company sold the good one just before we put in a call for it.) Ultimately spent $180,000 and just about had it returned to a nice productive condition when we had to turn it over to another tailings project the company got near the Salt Lake. They used it in various places and then drowned it in a pond just down from the main copper slag pile. It took those guys a week to get it out and by that time the highly acidic water had ruined the on-board computer and all the electrical wiring. The hydraulic system and engine had also filled with water by that time and I don't suppose were in to good of shape either. That was one hard luck machine. We replaced it after the other job took it over with a new Cat 375, a real dream machine. Big, smooth, powerful, and fast. We set a lot of 13000 pound concrete pipe with it.

On to California and a road job in Fresno. No Komatsu's there, but lots of Cat dozers including a D11 pushcat and a dozen 651E's. I got out of management for a while and ran a D8N pulling a Rome disc for a while, then switched out the 8 for an old, I mean really old 660 Cat tractor. This old monster was, I think, about a 1964 issue and it finally busted a exhaust valve and the 9-speed went bad at the same time. Eventually got a Challenger 85D and finished the season with it ahead of the disc. I ran everything else on the job at one time or another including 637E push-pulls and water-wagons. Both of which are young-men's machines I will mention.

Moving on to Bakersfield I got involved with an oilfield contractor working in three states. The owner had better sense than to buy Komatsu's though he had a soft spot in his heart for old Cat pipelayers. One note about southern California and the Komatsu dealer there. They fell apart and in Bakersfield anyway, are now headquartered at the Cummins Engine shop. They never sold many Komatsu's in the Grand Valley anyway. Quinn Tractor tore them up in agriculture and earthmoving.

Some Komatsu machines, loaders and excavators mainly, are pretty decent if nothing that one wants to rebuild and go on with. I don't like the dozers or graders or RT backhoes. Parts and service are a problem as even after nearly thirty years of trying, Komatsu still does not have a dealer/manufacturer setup half as good as Caterpillar. Komatsu never could build a reliable or productive haul truck so they bought Dresser/Wabco and I guess that isn't working out too badly now, though they sure had their troubles early on. I've only seen two Komatsu scrapers in all of America and they were a disaster. Komatsu bought Moxy to get some artic-truck experience, but I haven't heard how their own designs are doing now since the divorce. Same with Komatsu and Demag, and Demag had problems all their own when Komatsu got involved.

Any contractor in America won't go far wrong with Cat, Deere, Case, or other American made equipment. You get more up front for the long run with American machines. Cat in particular has always built it's products for the long term, whereas Komatsu decided that new technology would make their products obsolete. They chose -- unwisely...

Mass-X
03-30-2007, 08:56 PM
Komat04: "We had 475's out on jobs that ran 97% availablity and above day in and day out."

Care to elaborate a little more on that? What were the working conditions? Were there specialized maintenance schedules for these machines due to their work environment? In the time-frame between rebuilds how many operators had seat time on these machines?

While I don't have a lot of experience with 475's (I've only been around/operated three) I have worked with dozens of 375's, 275's and smaller.

I will say that I haven't seen a single Komatsu dozer get past 5,000 hours and run 97% availability, which is why I'm interested in your higher figure.

Komat04: "with proper maintenance and care CAT will perform. But, with the same attention Komatsu is their equal."

Under indentical working circumstances you feel the Komatsu dozers will perform equally well with CAT dozers after 5,000-6,000 hours?

I've worked on projects that have relied heavily upon Komatsu dozers and even with generous TLC they still didn't offer the availability that the CAT's did in the same situations and with the same maintenance.

PKS/Kiewit tested out Komatsu dozers on some of their mining projects from 2001-2005, kept detailed records of everything (and their equipment is maintained second to none) yet they sold the Komatsu's and went back to a 100% CAT fleet.

When I worked for them I was able to go through a lot of their test results from their Komatsu trials and they cited down-time on the Komatsu's running so much higher on a regular basis over their CAT's that they weren't a viable option for them.

Interesting post surfer-joe. I've worked a lot of the same places that you have and from the sounds of it, have probably even worked with some of the same people.

surfer-joe
03-31-2007, 11:17 AM
Kiewit is a big and kind of lumbering giant owner of heavy equipment, but their maintenance and cost records are pretty good. At the time I worked for them, mid 90's, they had no Komatsu's that I was aware of. They did have an extensive number of smaller Volvo loaders on hand. I was told that they figured the much lower cost of the Volvo's over Cat's negated the long term advantage and that when the Volvo's were worn out, they could toss them and get another. This is again, indicative of new technology vs. long term brute strength. Which do you want to pay for?

I don't know what Kiewit is doing with their equipment today, don't see them much here.

I do believe that with decent operators and a good PM program, Komatsu and other than Cat equipment can last quite a while, certainly up into the 8-10000 hour range and beyond that for the rubber-tired loaders. I've seen WA600 models in the 15-16000 hour range that were still remarkably tight and powerful. But once past these two areas, depending on the model, the value drops off fast and the rebuild/maintain costs goes up quickly with no end in sight. If you look at Ritchie's auction results and compare Cat to Komatsu it quickly becomes evident where the value is. Cat really seized on a good thing with their certified rebuild programs, but they do have the platforms that are able to be totally reconstructed.

Surprisingly, in the late seventies in Detroit, I helped with a similar program where a slag producer bought up severely used Euclid R35's and R50 end dumps from all over the Midwest. These were taken to our main shop in Detroit and stripped down to the bare frame. We than installed rebuilt engines, radiators, transmissions, differentials and finals drives -- all done in our own rebuild shops, and then brand new and updated cabs -- with air conditioning -- were bolted on. Electrical systems were all new. The hydraulic systems were upgraded, and the dump beds -- which were also totally rebuilt and specially strengthened in our weld shop, were then installed. All new fastener hardware was used throughout. This took quite a while and wasn't cheap, but it penciled out over the cost of a new haul truck, particularly in a slag operation. One wouldn't ordinarily think of an old Euc as being a rebuildable unit in this fashion, but we did maybe fifty of these trucks over several years.

In Kentucky and West Virginia, the major use of large Komatsu dozers is in surface coal mining. The soil and rock there is soft and not particularly abrasive, and the rock degrades quickly if left exposed to the open air. (compared to some other places I've been) However, one does have to move a lot of overburden to get to the coal and that requires a lot of movement. Land clearing operations are tough as it's all straight up and downhill, so a cat is on it's nose most of the time doing that. Reclamation is just the opposite, you have to push mostly uphill, and in most places, track the slope in after grade is obtained. After a shot however, there is a large amount of overburden laden with huge slabs of solid rock that must be moved by loader & truck or dozers. Most mines run double shift so the hours pile on fast.

Many of the mines in this region didn't think much of spending money building good haul roads, so when I and some others from outside the area first went in we called them goat tracks, usually not even wide enough to allow the haul trucks inner duel rear tires to touch the ground. Dozers were kept busy clearing, benching, and reclaiming. But I digress.

Point is, good maintenance and proper operation are huge factors in extending long life to equipment, but there has to be an underlying commitment by the manufacturer to build long term value into the big iron and that's what I haven't seen much of in foreign designed and built machines.

Hey, there's daylight in the swamp! Got to go.

Dozer575
03-31-2007, 09:33 PM
I would like to know where I can purchase one of those Komatsu dozers that no one wanted? I would hope they are just going for scrap steel value.
I would like contact numbers or email addresses.

Thank you

surfer-joe
03-31-2007, 10:07 PM
Too late Dozer575!

Those ole hulks went out of the mine in 1994, and they actually did go for less than scrap iron value back then. I tried to get my boss to let me contact some friends in Missoula that might have been interested in the components, but he and the top brass didn't want to do that.

Dozer575
03-31-2007, 11:56 PM
Surfer, please keep me in mind if you ever hear of a deal like that again.

What s/n and they were 375's correct? Cheapest one I have found is 99k. Thats a bunch for junk.
I did run 2 old junkers that came from a coal mine near by, considering their shape they ran real good. Hardly any problems. And that is running for many hours on the worse set of rails I have ever seen still being used. It was very difficult keeping them on. Yeah it was a very cheap outfit that had them. They got all the life they could out of an undercarriage. Yeah who cares about the finals.

surfer-joe
04-01-2007, 01:58 AM
I no longer have the serial numbers. The machines were new in 90 and 91, with maybe a 92 being that low hour unit I mentioned.

In the mid-seventies, at an auction in the UP of Michigan, I saw a totally rebuilt 66A D9G pushdozer go under the hammer for 8 grand. The buyer lived down by me and had some small acreage in a woodsy/swampy area just off the highway. He did a bunch of clearing with that Cat, pushdozer and all. Built a real nice fish pond. That Cat had a brand new undercarriage just put on by me before the auction over to the Cat house in Ishpeming.

There were a couple of dozen exceptionally well maintained International 495 Payscrapers sold at that sell-out auction that went very cheaply. They had all been overhauled and painted during the winter shut-down in anticipation of some major road contracts being won, but unfortunately, this outfit didn't get the work. The buyer stripped the tires -- mostly new -- off the scrapers and got all his money back and then some. He promptly sold every scraper to some junk yard guy, who proceeded to strip the engines and transmissions out, and the rest he cut up for scrap iron. These machines weren't that old as I recall. Everything in that auction went dirt cheap, there weren't many bidders present. The original owner cried like hell, and died some months after.

It's hard to find deals like that these days with the internet and outfits like Ritchies around. But you can sometimes still find good (cheap) bargains at smaller, out of the way auctions. What we call "hayseed" sales.

Gavin84w
04-09-2007, 06:40 AM
I have heard all the for and against arguments and that will always be the case, the one thing that as a Cat fan is that we should be greatful Komatsu makes such a decent dozer because if they did not then the current Cats would not be as good as they are. Good old competition is a great thing and the benefits are for all.

That said it is hard to deny the facts and figures out there but when it comes to availability numbers you really need to back them up with the methodology behind how you come up with them.

surfer-joe
04-09-2007, 02:24 PM
Gavin84w,

Your comment below made me think of an incedent at the Houston CONEXPO in 1980 or 81, can't remember the year for sure. Anyway, I was visiting with some pals over to the Cat exhibit and one said, "hey Joe, you want to see something really funny?" "Well sure," I replied. He said, "take a look at those guys by the D10, what do you think they are doing and where do you think they are from?"

So I wandered over closer to the nice new shiny D10, and there were about ten or more Japanese engineers from Komatsu all around, under, over, and in it. One would be taking measurements with a little ruler or tape measure, and another would be jotting down the dimensions and making notes in a little notepad. A third fella was taking pictures with a pretty sophisticated camera and his assistant was taking notes as well. They made no bother to hide their name tags, which identified them as all being from the Komatsu Factory in Japan, and sure didn't show any embarrassment at what they were up to.

I went back over to my pals and asked if they weren't just a little bit upset by what those fellas were doing. They said, "oh no, they weren't concerned." "The D10 in the show was an early prototype," one told me, "and would be changed in several ways before production." So I asked if they had gone over to the Komatsu exhibit and measured and took photos of all their equipment. You wouldn't believe the dumbstruck expressions the boys from Cat got on their faces. One finally said, "what for?"

Further discussion reveled that Cat figured Komatsu was 10-15 years behind them in technology at the time. The way they saw it, there was no use going over the Komatsu's in the show very closely. Oh, they had all been over there, but they hadn't seen anything that worried or amazed them, and were really amused and more than a little flattered by the Komatsu engineers flocking around the Cat equipment.

I've heard that Komatsu tried building a high sprocket tractor after that show and that after some testing and evaluating, decided against production as they did not see any great benefit to it. But this is just a footnote to the competition between the two, if you could call it that. It looked more like industrial espionage to me.

biggixxerjim
04-09-2007, 09:44 PM
Gavin84w,

Your comment below made me think of an incedent at the Houston CONEXPO in 1980 or 81, can't remember the year for sure. Anyway, I was visiting with some pals over to the Cat exhibit and one said, "hey Joe, you want to see something really funny?" "Well sure," I replied. He said, "take a look at those guys by the D10, what do you think they are doing and where do you think they are from?"

So I wandered over closer to the nice new shiny D10, and there were about ten or more Japanese engineers from Komatsu all around, under, over, and in it. One would be taking measurements with a little ruler or tape measure, and another would be jotting down the dimensions and making notes in a little notepad. A third fella was taking pictures with a pretty sophisticated camera and his assistant was taking notes as well. They made no bother to hide their name tags, which identified them as all being from the Komatsu Factory in Japan, and sure didn't show any embarrassment at what they were up to.

I went back over to my pals and asked if they weren't just a little bit upset by what those fellas were doing. They said, "oh no, they weren't concerned." "The D10 in the show was an early prototype," one told me, "and would be changed in several ways before production." So I asked if they had gone over to the Komatsu exhibit and measured and took photos of all their equipment. You wouldn't believe the dumbstruck expressions the boys from Cat got on their faces. One finally said, "what for?"

Further discussion reveled that Cat figured Komatsu was 10-15 years behind them in technology at the time. The way they saw it, there was no use going over the Komatsu's in the show very closely. Oh, they had all been over there, but they hadn't seen anything that worried or amazed them, and were really amused and more than a little flattered by the Komatsu engineers flocking around the Cat equipment.

I've heard that Komatsu tried building a high sprocket tractor after that show and that after some testing and evaluating, decided against production as they did not see any great benefit to it. But this is just a footnote to the competition between the two, if you could call it that. It looked more like industrial espionage to me.


Thats a funny story!!!!

I could just picture it now.... hahahaha!!!!!!

Neilus
03-12-2012, 07:25 AM
I have some extensive dealings with D11R, D11RCD, Komatsu 475 and the 575
I was a service manage for a Komatsu dealer in the US then became the Training Manager/Technical Coordinator. I have spent the last 8 1/2 years working as the Maintenance Coordinator for a surface mining company where we have a 4 D11R's and a D11RCD. When I was at the Komatsu dealer I was in charge of the first D575CD to be built. We also had more D575's than any other dealer in the world. We had more D475's than all the other dealers combined at one time.
I think which one is better is truly determined by what YOU want to make of it. We had 475's out on jobs that ran 97% availablity and above day in and day out. And I am talking about tractors that were running with 20,000 hours and above. We had tractors on jobs where the mechanics or operators felt like "this is Japanese Junk" and they are taking our jobs. On those jobs, they did not perform as well. They would run the machine till it wouldn't move before telling anyone about a problem. But, given an equal opportunity, the differences between the D11R and the D475-5 will be in your personal perception.
I have read where people expect to rebuild engines at 12,000 hours. Either Tractor has the ability to make that number. I am running 5 D11's now. I have one that has 43,000 hours on it. The engine has been rebuild once, at 27,940 hours. The transmission was built at 20,000 hours. I normally see more than 20,000 hours out of our D11 engines, WITHOUT losing the core.
I have 777's running with 43,000 plus on the engines and still having great oil samples and running great.
My point is, with proper maintenance and care CAT will perform. But, with the same attention Komatsu is their equal.
Also something to think about, Komatsu is offering some impressive warranties on new mining equipment right now. And equally impressive exchange components. When you look at the cost per hour, and Komatsu will put it in writing, they will guarantee it to be less than Cat. Not something that can be done if their product doesn't perform.


Hello, Just wondering if you could help me with a problem with my friends 475 up at one of the Brisbane mines. The have had techs working on it for two weeks and haven't come up with a solution yet. I thought some one of your experience might know where to start looking.

Basically the problem is the machine starts fine etc but has problems selecting gears, goes into reverse by itself etc.......

Temperature seems to be ok with the transmission....
The common thought at the moment is the computer might be cooked... The vehicle is only 2 or three months old.......
When the vehicle restarts the transmission resets itself and is ok for a very short time and then reverts back to selection wrong gears etc.

I know its not much to go on, just thought I would run it by you to see if you have herd of it before...
There is an error code 3 visible ....... I don't have access to what the error codes contain.

Thanks very much for your time, andy hints you could give me I will pass on directly.

Cheers

Neil.

Bluetop Man
03-12-2012, 08:41 AM
A six-year-old thread springs back to life? Somebody needs to clean the tracks:
http://www.mining-power.de/d475/d475_11_p.html

Impressive dozers to say the least. Here, back filling The Grand Canyon??? :D
http://www.mining-power.de/d475/d475_10_p.html

How is that elevated sprocket thing working out:
http://www.mining-power.de/d11r/d11r_22_p.html

diggerop
03-12-2012, 08:56 AM
Brisbane is the capital city of Queensland, Australia. What are the Brisbane mines?. If the vehicle? (dozer?) is only 2 or 3 months old ,what happened with the warranty?