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willie59
08-28-2010, 07:44 PM
Well, time for another Bobcat thread. (shut up turbo21835) Bah ha ha ha

Ok, I'm seeing way too much of this on Bobcat machines lately, Bobcat has changed a component on the drive neutral centering device, they must be using some cheap steel or something. You don't typically see this on the older BC machines, I've got a 753 in the shop right now that looks like the original components and they don't have the wear the newer machine components have. What am I talking about? Let me get the centering plate off and you'll see it.

67633

Caution; before you make any repairs or adjustments to the drive centering device on a Bobcat, the first thing you must do is get the machine off the ground on 4 stands. Don't trust just tilting the bucket forward and lifting front wheels, it could drift down. It must be on stands or sturdy blocks.

First, you have to remove the centering spring. Now, there's a little trick to this. You can remove it quite easily. But then putting it back on is a bit of a problem because you have to compress the spring to start the nut on the long center bolt, you only have two hands and no room for a helper in there.

Here's a solution that works well for me. Thread a good quality zip tie under spring, at least two (three is even more durable) zips.

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Move one of the drive levers just slightly off center to compress spring just a little, then zip the ties.

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Now you can remove the center bolt/nut, and you have a handy caged spring that's ready for re-install.

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continued...

willie59
08-28-2010, 07:47 PM
Once the centering spring is removed, you just simply lift the centering plate off and you'll see the pintle arms that control the pump shafts. Now you can see the problem, the wear on those two centering spools bolted on the pintle arms. I'm seeing these worn spools more and more on newer model machines. We own an S185 that's just a little over a year old, about 800 hrs on it, and these spools have been replaced twice. Once this wear occurs, the pintle arm isn't being held in neutral position and will cause the machine to creep.

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The spools have a 3/8" hex key hole in the top of them, and are fastened to the pintle arms by a hex head bolt from underneath. And there's not enough room to get even a short socket under the pintle arm to grab head of bolt. Additionally, the bolt head is in a recess, can't even grip enough of the bolt head with the open end of a wrench. More brilliant Bobcat design.

67639

I have a 9/16" S-K wrench that has just enough protrusion on box end of wrench to grip just enough of the bolt head to pop spool loose with allen head socket on spool. All you have to do is break the spool loose, give it a half turn to clean metal, and lock it down. But I remove the spool and install a split ring lock washer on the bolt for a spacer, that makes getting a hold of the bolt head much easier. Here's one of thespools and bolt.

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Turn both spools on the two pintle arms around to fresh metal. And while your in there, be sure and check the bolt that locks pintle arm to pump shaft, that bolt needs to be tight.

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The steel bars bolted to the centering plate are going to be worn as well, simply remove the fastening bolts of the bars, flip the bars around, and bolt them back on. The bolt holes on right bar are round, the holes for the left bar are slotted. Lock down the bolts in the right bar, but leave the ones in the slotted holes for left bar loose to make adjustment.

67642

continued...

willie59
08-28-2010, 07:49 PM
Here's the left pintle arm with the spools turned around. Notice the two 3/8" bolts that fasten the pintle arm to the pump control arm. The bolt that's in between the two spools goes through a round hole and screws into the pump control shaft. The bolt to the right of spools goes through a slotted hole and fastens to the end of pump control arm. This is how drive centering adjustment is done using the allen head screw on front of pintle arm. We'll go over that in a few minutes.

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Now we have spools and bars flipped around, simply fit the centering plate in place, and re-install that handily caged centering spring.

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The centering bar to the right is set because we locked the bolts down on it. Now we need to set the left centering bar. Make sure the left pintle arm is in centerline with right pintle arm as best you can as it will move fore and aft. Just slightly set bolts for left centering bar in slotted holes.

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Tap the side of the bolt heads to move centering bar toward spools until it contacts spools. Give the bolt heads a bit more lock down.

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Grasp the machine right side drive lever that you use to drive the machine and move it gently fwd and rev, checking for any movement of the pintle arm. There should be no looseness of the pintle arm spools contacting the centering bars. If there is, loosen front bolt, move the drive operating lever slightly in reverse direction, and tap the front centering bar bolt with hammer to move it closer to the spool on pintle arm, lock bolt again. If you adjust too far, you will cause looseness of opposite centering bar on right side of centering plate, the side with holes that don't adjust. Once you get no looseness of either drive lever, firmly lock down bolts for centering bars and re-check that nothing moved during torquing bolts.

67647

continued...

willie59
08-28-2010, 07:52 PM
Now, let the cab down, plant yourself in the seat, and start the machine. It may try and move one of the drives because final ajustment is yet to be done. You may have to hold one or both of the levers pushed or pulled slightly to neutral the pumps until you get the engine running and brake lock released. This is why you have to have machine on stands or blocks. Once you get it running and brake lock released, raise the cab back up. You'll more than likely have at least one side, or both sides, creeping a bit. To adjust and get drive neutral, slightly loosen bolt in pump shaft.

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Loosen bolt in pump control arm in slotted hole.

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Turn the adjusting screw CCW (screwing out) until that side creeps in reverse. Slightly tension the two bolts.

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Crank the adjusting screw CW (screwing in) with allen wrench until that drive finds neutral. Lock down bolts. Some movement may occur during lock down, you may have to tweak a bit more.

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If you adjust too far and get forward creep, you have to regroup and do it over again. Once you get neutral on both drives your good to go. On older machines that have aluminum pintle arms, the adjusting procedure is a bit different. I should be repairing the drive centering on the 753 with aluminum arms this coming week, hopefully will be able to follow up on those repairs at this thread.

m630
08-28-2010, 11:53 PM
looks like fun lol

frogfarmer
08-30-2010, 04:50 PM
This is a simple adjustment operators should insist be done. There is no substitute for safety.

willie59
09-02-2010, 07:58 PM
Now a little info about the older machines with aluminum pintle arms. Got in the cab of the 753 customer had dropped off and it was all over the place. I knew immediately that the clamping bolt for the right drive pintle arm had come loose. Well, here's the belly of the beast. Pretty much the same thing as on the T190, cage the centering spring with cable ties, remove centering spring, then lift neutral centering plate off. On this model, more difficult to get to the centering spring, had hoses and stuff in the way. Grrrrrr.

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Centering plate removed, the pintle arm on the left is the one the clamping bolt that holds arm tight on pump shaft came loose allowing pintle arm to wallow all over and couldn't control pump shaft movement. These machines drive nutty when they come loose. Notice the difference in the spools on the aluminum arm models as opposed to the spools that wear on the T190 mentioned earlier. These spools actually look like a chromed steel.

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Minimal wear on spools as well as centering bars.

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Two new pintle arms. One from being worn by loose clamping bolt, other had excessive wear where rubber torsion bushing goes. Install new torsion bushings, installed old but still good spools on new arms, rotated them around to fresh steel, and rotated centering bars on centering plate.

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I should offer an installation note whenever perfoming repairs to Bobcat drive linkages. Whenever you remove the bolt that attaches drive link to pintle arm via the rubber torsion bushing, when you go to re-install the torsion bushing bolt you must have the pintle arm near the neutral position. Once the bolt is tight, moving the machine drive lever fwd and rev actually twists the rubber of the torsion bushing. Point is, if you had the machine drive lever and pintle arm all the way forward and installed the torsion bushing bolt and locked it down, then when you pulled back the drive lever, it would simply try to go back foward like a spring was pulling it. That's from twisting the rubber of torsion bushing. Always have pintle arms in line with each other when installing torsion bushing bolts.

continued...

willie59
09-02-2010, 08:02 PM
Now the main difference between the aluminum arms and two piece steel pintle arm, there's no centering adjusting screw like on the steel arms. The drive centering adjustments are done solely on the centering plate. Notice the holes on the centering plate that mount the centering bars. The holes on the left (for right side drive) are both slotted. The holes on the right (left drive) has one hole slotted and one plain round hole. That's where adjusting begins, the round hole is the pivot point and the slotted hole is the adjusting point for left side drive. Mount the centering bar to the plate with round hole bolt, then mount opposite end bolt in the mid point of slotted hole, lighty lock down bolts. Install opposite centering bar with two slotted holes, push bar away from other centering bar and lightly lock bolts.

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Fit centering plate onto guide pins, re-install centering spring. Now we can start adjusting. Again, you must have machine on stands or sturdy blocks, wheels off ground. Start machine and release parking brake lock. Adjust left side drive first. If there's no creep of left drive wheels, lock down the bolts for that centering bar. If there is creep of left drive, put a little light torque on round hole pivot bolt.

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Have a little tension on the slotted hole bolt. Move left side drive lever to reverse drive to seperate spool from the centering bar at that bolt, tap the side of the head of the slotted hole bolt in the direction needed to achieve neutral. Once neutral is achieved, start torquing the bolts, keep moving drive lever in fwd and rev while torquing and checking that neutral is good. Once you get neutral, lock bolts tight.

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Now that you have the left side drive set and not creeping, it's time to adjust the right side drive. Since they are all the way left in there slots, there's going to be considerable movement of the machine drive lever. With the right machine drive lever holding the right wheels in neutral position, or close as you can, loosen the bolts in the centering bar and move it to the right in the slotted holes until centering bar is against the spools of pintle lever, lightly torque bolts. Adjust the two bolts to achieve drive neutral for right side drive, making sure the centering bar is contacting the spools, you can't have any slack between bar and spool contact or it will creep, but you have to make sure the adjustments on that side don't cause slack for the opposite side drive. Once you get right side drive neutral, lock bolts down tight. Move both drive levers in fwd and rev and make sure there is no drive creep.

67862

bull
09-03-2010, 10:15 AM
Excellent tutorial. Thanks ATCO!

90xtskid
09-03-2010, 02:41 PM
Very well detailed reply with pictures-I like it.:)

pcbobcat
09-03-2010, 06:54 PM
thanks so much for that trick.

willie59
09-03-2010, 09:49 PM
I'm kinda hoping this info will help some machine owner do his own repairs instead of unloading the wallet to pay the big shop to do them. :)

jean
09-06-2010, 10:22 PM
this is my third reply. Yeh! and i hope that when i finally get to ask a question this guy is around to give me an answer.

willie59
09-06-2010, 10:26 PM
this is my third reply. Yeh! and i hope that when i finally get to ask a question this guy is around to give me an answer.

OMG...I hope I am too! LoL :D

Welcome to the forum jean. :usa

usediron
10-14-2010, 07:28 PM
Is the adjustment procedure basicly the same on the 773 and 863's. I have a 863 1999 vintage.

thanks

willie59
10-14-2010, 08:19 PM
Is the adjustment procedure basicly the same on the 773 and 863's. I have a 863 1999 vintage.

thanks

Your machine should have the same components. Being a '99, I'd say you have the aluminum pintle arms. :)

BTW, welcome to the forum usediron. :usa

mrfixitpaul
10-14-2010, 08:26 PM
Not sure what years, but some of the older 863's used cables to control servo spools in the pumps, instead of manual linkages......way different procedure for adjustment.

willie59
10-14-2010, 08:30 PM
Not sure what years, but some of the older 863's used cables to control servo spools in the pumps, instead of manual linkages......way different procedure for adjustment.


Yeah, been a while since I've seen one of those cable jobs, I would think by '99 it would use the link system. Not certain about that myself. :)

punchlist
10-17-2010, 02:52 PM
Would this fix work on a t180 that one track is going faster than the other?

willie59
10-17-2010, 03:00 PM
Would this fix work on a t180 that one track is going faster than the other?


Welcome to the forum punchlist. :usa

You mean one track faster than the other, like, when you have the drive levers all the way forward, one tracks is faster than the other, making the machine turn?

punchlist
10-17-2010, 03:44 PM
This is the problem exactly and I havent looked at the adjustment but the machine seems slower in forward than reverse. But the right control seems to go farther fwd than the left?

willie59
10-17-2010, 04:35 PM
This is the problem exactly and I havent looked at the adjustment but the machine seems slower in forward than reverse. But the right control seems to go farther fwd than the left?


Common adjustment problem on Bobcats, easy to fix. For this, you would adjust the flat linkage bars that go from the drive lever control rods at the front and connect to the pintle levers on pumps. The drive levers typically go foward until they hit the cutouts in the front plate behind your legs. If the right seems to go farther forward, I'm guessing you need to make your left drive linkage bar shorter.

With engine off, raise the cab. You'll see those two linkage bars in the center of the machine. About the midpoint of the bars, the two piece bars are connected with 3/8" bolts in slotted holes. Facing from the front of machine, the left drive bar would be the one on your right. Take a Sharpie, and put a mark on the forward portion of that bar about an 1/8" from where it joins the rear section of bar. Slightly loosen connection bolts, wiggle the bar connection while lightly pulling back on left drive lever until the rear section of bar meets the mark that you made on front bar, lock bolts down. Make sure you have the linkage bar straight and not a dog leg angle at the connection. You simply adjust the bars until the machine tracks straight when you have drive levers thrown all the way forward. If it still travels faster in rev than fwd, and you want the fwd speed, shorten both bars (left and right) until you achieve this. :)

willie59
11-06-2010, 07:21 PM
Well, time to post an update to the creeping Bobcat thread. We have an S185 that we purchased new, has right around 1000 hours on it now. The spools and centering bars have already been replaced twice by dealer during warranty service. Now, it's creeping again, more wear on spools and centering bars. Dag nabit! This is about annoying! Damn Chinese steel! I called my Bobcat dealer and talked to the Service manager. Told Issac what was happening and asked if there was anything we could do to fix this annoying problem. He said "yeah, I'll put together a parts list for ya and fix you up". Our machine has the two piece steel pintle arms, but I suspect if you have the aluminum pintle arms that have these worn spools and bars, these parts may work on them as well.

Safety Warning: Never perform these repairs unless machine is raised of the ground and resting on sufficient stands/blocks with all wheels off ground and free to turn.

While waiting on my go-fer to go get parts, proceeded with removing components. Now this S185, unlike the 753 at beginning of this thread, has a hydraulic driven fan. These components make it really difficult to reach in work on the drive centering plate components, removing the spools would be difficult. So, instead of repairing centering spools with pintle arms attached to drive motors, I opted to remove pintle arms.

Cage the centering spring as shown in post #1 of this thread, remove centering spring/bolt, and remove the centering plate. You now have access to the pintle arms.

Remove the nut that attaches links from drive levers to pintle arm, you have to hold the bolt head from underneath or bolt will turn on this model. Then remove the two 3/8" bolts that attach the pintle arm to the drive pump lever.

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Now you simply lift the pintle arm off of the pump shaft lever. Yeah, there's those junk worn centering spools.

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Flip the pintle arm over and clamp centering spools in a vise, remove the retainer bolts and remove spools from arm.

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Your going to have some wear on the centering bars as well, remove the bolts that mount them and turn them around 180 degrees and you'll have a new surface to work with.

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Ok, here are the goodies. Stud mounted cam follower bearings, 4 flanged nuts, 4 thick shim washers, and 8 thin shim washers.

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Here's your parts list from Bobcat and todays parts prices per each:

(4) #6673789 cam follower bearing $29.14
(8) #25E17 thin shim washers .98
(4) #6557831 thick shim washer .78 (less than thin washers?)
(4) #98D6 flanged 3/8-24 nut 1.38
Or use a Timken CRSB-14 cam follower bearing from a bearing supplier, appx 17.00 each

willie59
11-06-2010, 07:24 PM
Here's the assembly process. Place one thin shim washer and one thick shim washer on each cam follower studs. This makes them the approximate same height as the old spools.

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Mount the cam bearings to the pintle arms with new flanged nuts.

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Install the reversed centering bars using one thin shim washer between centering bar and centering plate. For the centering bar that has two round bolt holes, lock that one down tight. On the opposite end with slotted holes, push centering bar away from opposite bar and lightly tighten bolts, they will be adjusted later.

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Now re-install the pintle arms on the pump levers, lightly tighten the two bolts that fasten the pintle arms to the pump lever. Fit the drive lever link bars to the pintle arms, make sure the pintle arms are parallel when locking down nut on drive lever link bolts. If you have pintle arms forward or rearward and lock down nut on link bolts, the torsion bushings in pintle arms won't be set properly. Go back to post #4 of this thread for drive neutral adjusting procedure.
Got everything back together, cam rollers contact centering bars perfect. You can see two of the cam rollers in left side of pic. Don't think I'm going to have a problem with this for a while. Sweet!

70291

willie59
03-07-2011, 10:12 PM
Time for an update to this thread. One common problem with Bobcat drive pumps is leaking seals on the pump control shafts. It's an easy fix, doesn't require drive pump removal or major disassembly. If you happen to be in there doing repairs to the pintle arms or drive centering and you see leakage of the pump shaft seals, you should consider replacing the seals while you have things apart. This one is on a T200 track machine.

Once you have the drive centering plate and pintle arm removed, simply remove the 4 bolts that mount the centering plate guide bracket.


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Remove the guide bracket, you'll then be looking at the seal plate.


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Lift the seal plate off of the pump.


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There's the lip seal you need to replace.


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There's also a ring seal that seals the shaft seal plate and pump housing. Some models use an o-ring seal, others use a square cut lathe ring seal, you're Bobcat dealer may ask which one your machine uses, so you might want to get a peek and see which one you have before you order/pickup your parts.


76322


One thing to keep in mind, there's going to be some oil leaking out when you remove the seal plate. On this one I wasn't terribly concerned because it has already made an oily mess in the area. But for one that's just seeping oil, and you don't want to make a big mess, keep the hose from your suck bucket evacuating the oil from the area while you have the plate off and are replacing the seal in the seal plate.

Also, be sure and polish the pump control shaft with fine emory cloth to remove rust or roughness of shaft before re-installing the seal plate. Use your suck bucket to remove the rusty oil caused by cleaning the shaft.

LWG
03-08-2011, 09:42 PM
Very clever use of zip ties. I will file that idea away for use whenever I disassemble components with springs in tight spots.

Sam_French
03-09-2011, 10:18 AM
Thank you for posting Atco. If you were to put all this information in a book. Put me down for a couple of copies.

Have a nice day.

Sam

willie59
03-09-2011, 07:05 PM
Thank you for posting Atco. If you were to put all this information in a book. Put me down for a couple of copies.

Have a nice day.

Sam


LoL...me thinks I'm already in the process of putting together the book here Sam. :tong

wildernesss1958
03-09-2011, 08:33 PM
Would that be the same on my T190 2003 bobcat

wildernesss1958
03-09-2011, 08:35 PM
would that be the same on my T190 2003 as it is here for the creeping bobcat?

wildernesss1958
03-09-2011, 08:38 PM
would this be the same for my 2003 T190 as you descriibed here?

willie59
03-09-2011, 08:50 PM
Welcome to the forum wildernesss1958.

Yes, the things on this thread are common Bobcat skid items, T190 should pretty much be the same thing.

real550A
07-08-2011, 04:16 PM
Many thanks, ATCO....My 773G never sat or steered so nice, before I followed your steps. I found the left pintle arm was loose, and
tightened it, adjusted per your post, and she's smooth as silk! Love the zip tie trick, also. I now know what I'm feeling when things
don't act right. Mike

willie59
07-08-2011, 07:25 PM
Welcome to the forum real550A. :usa

Good to hear this info was of help to you, that's the reason I posted it. You can bet Bobcat makes some good money on these simple repairs, and they're not really all that hard to do if you can stand working on top of one of those uncomfortable little critters. ;)

Memphisdoug
07-26-2011, 07:50 AM
I have a Bobcat 873 with a problem with the steering control arms. The left hand arm causes the left wheels to move forward and back as soon as it is moved from the neutral position. The right hand arm has a lot more travel that is required both forward and back before the right wheels will move. It makes it somewhat hard to make left hand turns while moving because the right had wheels won't go as fast as the left. From reading the above posts, I am guessing that I may have a loose clamping bolt or worn pintle arm. I don't have any creep yet. My serial number is 514115288 if that is any help in determining the type of linkage I have. Any hints on how I should proceed with a repair? Thanks in advance for any help.

willie59
07-26-2011, 09:29 PM
Welcome to the forum Memphisdoug. :usa

Whether you have the aluminum or steel pintle arms, if the clamp bolt comes loose that attaches them to the pump control shaft you're going to have some form of fwd/rev creep on the drive, it will be hard to control the machine as you can't get it to settle into neutral.

If you have no creep, but have a very sloppy drive lever, you could have a bad bushing in the end of the traverse control rod that the drive lever attaches to, or you could have a bad torsion bushing on the control link that goes from traverse control rod to pintle arm. You need to raise your cab and see if you can determine what is causing the slack in the drive lever. :)

Memphisdoug
07-27-2011, 06:43 AM
That's where I'm confused. I tilted the cab up and took off the right hand access plate on the side of the machine. As soon as I move the right hand drive lever forward or back I see the centering plate move. It's not like I have to move the lever a bunch before the centering plate moves. So - it seems like the lever is moving the control valve without problem. Is it possible to have something wrong with the valve that would cause my problem. Perhaps I need to take a closeer look at the whole linkage thing too. It looks like some tight quarters to work in there!

willie59
07-27-2011, 08:10 PM
I think it's time to remove the centering plate and get a better look at pintle arm components.

Coastal
08-13-2011, 03:14 PM
Holy crap this is awesome....I've been fighting with this thing creeping for a while, i found the aluminum arm was loose, now i tightened it and the left track wants to go backwards. So the last 3 hours have been trying to adjust this thing. Now I know how!

Thank you!

:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy

willie59
08-13-2011, 08:12 PM
Holy crap this is awesome....I've been fighting with this thing creeping for a while, i found the aluminum arm was loose, now i tightened it and the left track wants to go backwards. So the last 3 hours have been trying to adjust this thing. Now I know how!

Thank you!

:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy

You are quite welcome Coastal, I hope the info does the trick for ya. ;)

donald73d
08-14-2011, 05:27 PM
Does this happen on older Bobcats such as a 1988 843? If so whats is the cost for parts? Labor?

willie59
08-14-2011, 06:13 PM
Does this happen on older Bobcats such as a 1988 843? If so whats is the cost for parts? Labor?


This is pretty much stuff common to Bobcats. Some of the newer ones are using electronic servo controls, those a bit different. An '88 model likely has aluminum pintle arms. Don't have the cost of the parts in my head, but don't think they're outrageously expensive.

donald73d
08-14-2011, 09:34 PM
So on a Bobcat 843, is the creep fix likely to be an adjustment or a new part?

willie59
08-14-2011, 09:41 PM
Could be either donald73d, pretty much need to raise cab and check out drive centering components. A number of parts can cause creep. Worn centering spools, worn plastic guide pin bushings, loose pintle arm. I can't remember the configuration of the 843 and what drive pump they used, I only recall the 743 had a Vickers pump and a centering device that was a PITA to adjust. The system was greatly improved when they started producing the 53 series.

Alberta
08-18-2011, 08:16 PM
Thanks for the good write up Willie59. It sure helped me a lot on a job that I'm doing for a friend.

Regards

willie59
08-18-2011, 09:00 PM
Thanks for the good write up Willie59. It sure helped me a lot on a job that I'm doing for a friend.

Regards


You are very welcome Alberta. Good to hear the info was beneficial. :drinkup

2frankh
08-30-2011, 09:54 PM
Very helpful. Thanks for the great post.

willie59
08-30-2011, 10:07 PM
You're welcome 2frankh, welcome to the forum. :usa

2frankh
08-30-2011, 10:39 PM
Willie59, Did you ever find the axel weights you mentioned in another thread? Didn't see anything mentioned there. Thanks again

willie59
08-30-2011, 10:55 PM
Willie59, Did you ever find the axel weights you mentioned in another thread? Didn't see anything mentioned there. Thanks again

Sorry, no, I haven't. Not sure where those weights come from. I would think you can get them from Bobcat, but there's got to be another source, just not sure where.

Memphisdoug
09-03-2011, 02:10 PM
I was finally able to dig into my 873 today to try to determine what was causing the problem I was having. To recap - my left hand steering arm is working fine. Very little movement of the arm causes motion of the LH wheels forward and back. The RH stick isn't doing the same thing. It needs a lot of movement to get much of anything to happen and even at the limits of its travel the RH wheels just aren't moving like they should. To me it sounded like my RH pintle arm probably came loose from the valve shaft. I took off the centering plate and checked movement. As soon as I move the RH steering arm the pintle arm moves too along with the valve shaft. There is a little slop where the steering arm connects to the pintle arm but it is the same on both sides. There is not near enough to cause the problem I have. My spools and centering bars have very little wear also. I should mention that I have the aluminum pintle arms. So now I am at somewhat of a loss. What could be causing the lack of response with my RH steering arm? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I don't want to have to take this in to the dealer to repair.

Memphisdoug
09-03-2011, 02:12 PM
Just another addition to my message above. I am not having any creep problems with my unit. Just the lack of response on the RH steering control.

BDFT
09-03-2011, 06:43 PM
I think its time for a pressure check. If all the mechanical linkage is correct then the next thing to check is the pump and drive motors.

willie59
09-03-2011, 07:05 PM
I agree, if you have confirmed linkage is good, might have a problem with pump or motor. If you don't have required pressure test equipment, it would take a little time, but you could try switching the drive motors and see if problem moves to opposite side. Hopefully it does, which would mean bad drive motor. If it remains a problem on right side, likely problem with pump which would be more expensive to repair.

droffsite
11-01-2011, 07:53 PM
Just got a 2002 863 yesterday. It's my first skid steer, so I thought maybe I just didn't have a clue how to drive the thing as it bucked like a madman whenever I tried to stop or move slowly. It also creeped forward on the left side.

After reading this, I took a look, and sure enough, my left drive pintle arm was flopping around on the pump shaft. Tightened that, then adjusted the bars on the centering plate until neutral worked.

Now I can actually drive it! I still get a bit of bucking on occasion, but I think that might truly be my being new to this. The right side also goes faster than the left if forward, so I'll be doing the other adjustment described herein.

For both, much thanks!

BDFT
11-01-2011, 08:17 PM
The aluminum pintle is probably worn out. If the bucking gets progressively worse, check the pintle again. It may have loosened up on the shaft again. Replace it and the bushings and it should be good for a while.

droffsite
11-01-2011, 09:37 PM
The aluminum pintle is probably worn out. If the bucking gets progressively worse, check the pintle again. It may have loosened up on the shaft again. Replace it and the bushings and it should be good for a while.

I'll keep that in mind, thanks. Is there anywhere to get a new one other than through Bobcat? Not that I'd mind that, just curious about alternatives.

willie59
11-01-2011, 09:47 PM
Bobcat is the only place I'm aware of to get those parts. The aluminum arms aren't terribly expensive, compared to what most parts cost nowdays.

Memphisdoug
11-01-2011, 10:05 PM
Just an update on the problem I was having. It turned out that I had some blown seals in my right hand drive motor. Replaced those and I have a good running Bobcat again.

DrJim
03-20-2012, 11:38 PM
Willie59, I've been studying this great post in preparation for tuning up my 2001 773G, nearly 900 hr. My "torsion bushings" are worn out, and I'm also guessing that some of the slop I'm feeling is coming from worn centering spools.

When I went to buy the bushings, Lynn told me there are two types, that I need to take my old ones out before they can know which parts I need--cannot determine by ser #. Do you know. . . are both types "torsion", i.e. do they twist/torque under movement like the ones you describe in this post? I wonder what purpose the "torsion" serves.

To change those bushings, it looks like the pintle plate will have to come off in order to press out the oldbushings and press the new ones in. Or. . .is there a trick to that?

As for the centering spools. . . if mine are worn, do you figure it's probably worth doing the upgrade from plain spools to bearings, to keep from having the problems again for a while? (OK, I can answer that one: Yes.) And while I'm changing bushings, are there bushings at the opposite (front) end of the control links (flat bars to control levers) that also wear? If so, I reckon I should change all of those out before bothering to adjust anything.

And after studying this, I'll be sure to check the control shaft seals while I'm at it. Thanks, my man. I just might let you keep my MEL 1278 in your toolbox when I'm done with it. (If I can find the spool valve thread again. . .) :)

willie59
03-21-2012, 09:12 PM
Yes Jim, Bobcat used two different size torsion bushings and they can't tell what size was used on your machine using serial number. All you have to do is measure the diameter of the bushing that presses into hole on pintle arm to determine which bushings you have.

Pintle arms have to be removed to replace torsion bushings. You can simply use a vice and appropriate sized sockets to push old bushings out and press new ones in.

As for centering spools, depends on what type is on there now. Some of the old spools had like a chrome finish on them, they would wear over time, but were pretty hard steel. On those you can typically rotate them and rotate the bars that they contact and get many more hours. If it's the newer style spools, they wear like crazy, it's a waste of time to rotate them as they won't last that long, better off changing over to cam followers.

The pump shaft seals, pretty easy to do once you get all the control components out of the way, just make sure you clean the area well before removing the plate that has the shaft seal in it. :)

Chris3558
04-28-2012, 11:53 AM
Willie 59,

I want to say "thank you" for such a nice detailed proceedure! I am new to the forum as well as I just purchased my first bobcat, a 1992 7753 with 1540 actual hours. The centering blocks had never been flipped and they were just a little worn. The spools were in great shape with no flat spots, they must have used harder material back then. So I flipped the blocks to use the good side. My machine has tracks on it, so I played the game of raising and lower the cab everytime I made an adjustment instead of trying to raise the machine high enough with sagging tracks on it.....my cab lift cylinders are shot so this is quite a workout on your back, not to mention trying to fit into that small compartment and adjust those centering blocks. It can be a tedious pain as I probably made over 10 trials before getting it right, now I see why the Bobcat deal wants $500.00 to do this job. Thanks again!

Chris

willie59
04-28-2012, 04:09 PM
Welcome to the forum Chris3558. :usa

I do hope the information was helpful. ;)

pholt34
05-28-2012, 07:08 AM
Great info. My T190 creep has been getting worse since i bought it. Time to correct it. After I finish with some pressing tasks I will have to yank the track for a leak around the LH drive. Im sure Ill have questions on that when the time comes.

Reel hip
06-04-2012, 08:15 PM
Just reused this thread to adjust my 863. Thanks again

willie59
06-04-2012, 09:02 PM
Just reused this thread to adjust my 863. Thanks again

You're welcome, good to hear the info was helpful. ;)

jimsbcs
06-12-2012, 12:14 AM
Thanks, I adjusted my 2009 s220 last night. the slotted block for right side wheels wasn't very tight and was causing the problem. also my spools are the roller bearing type, like you showed on the upgrade. I bought the machine new so they haven't been replaced. mine had no wear on the spools or blocks. I have 1200 hrs. on mine. Thanks again. Jim

willie59
06-12-2012, 12:23 AM
That's awesome Jim. And I don't think I've greeted you, so, welcome to the forum. :usa

super mechanic
07-14-2012, 08:07 PM
I am a bobcat mechanic ,work for a dealership for 9 years ,was the foreman for 4 years
and just wanna it to add a comment about the bushing in control arms,yea they are two sizes,
in all big frame machines like 863,873,the small bushing get replace with the big one
and also the control arms needs to be replace is an update from the factory
and also in almost in all small frame machines like 763,773,753,etc,

Orgnoi1
07-14-2012, 09:05 PM
Thanks for such a fantastic thread... I have a question on "creep"... when on flat ground my 463 does not move... but when its on any sort of incline (even a tiny one) the machine wants to roll in the direction of the downhill... could this be caused by the same issues as the machine creeping?

willie59
07-14-2012, 10:59 PM
When they are on an incline, engine running, and parking brake released, they can roll Orgnoi1, this is likely the case with yours if it does it in both directions, fwd and rev. However, if it tends to only do this in one direction, I wager if you get your machine on stands, start engine and release brake, you would find wheels creeping, needing adjustment.

Orgnoi1
07-15-2012, 05:55 AM
I think I will make the attempt to check that out this week... Mostly it does feel like it does it in reverse...so maybe there IS an issue there... Plus I have issues with the throw on both levers not being equal at full speed so there's an adjustment issue with that for sure... Thanks for the reply!

super mechanic
07-15-2012, 10:06 AM
463's dont have to much play to adjust wheel speed,
however,if you follow the levers they attach to a bar call
crankbell which it has 2 bearings attach to the frame ,
you could get a litte of adjustment in there,also if you tires
are different size in OD this will affec your full speed.

Orgnoi1
07-16-2012, 06:04 AM
Super Mechanic its not about the actual top speed... I drive configuration is faster than the other... so when you push both arms forward the skid turns slightly to the left...

Orgnoi1
07-16-2012, 06:06 AM
When they are on an incline, engine running, and parking brake released, they can roll Orgnoi1, this is likely the case with yours if it does it in both directions, fwd and rev. However, if it tends to only do this in one direction, I wager if you get your machine on stands, start engine and release brake, you would find wheels creeping, needing adjustment.

I did some playing around to see where I am more or less moving by putting the machine on direct angles... its definately creeping rearward... I guess now its just finding the time to fix it...lol

super mechanic
07-16-2012, 07:49 AM
I was talking about wheel speed,not top speed ,
neutral adjustment (creeping) and wheel speed are
different issues.Different sizes tires,weak drive motor,
will affect wheel speed in a 463.

steevz
07-16-2012, 10:48 AM
New to this forum but great post! Thanks.

Fred Bryant
07-16-2012, 08:19 PM
Another item on my todo list that now is not a mystery. Thank's for the detailed post.

Thx's, Fred.

willie59
07-16-2012, 09:09 PM
Another item on my todo list that now is not a mystery. Thank's for the detailed post.

Thx's, Fred.

You're welcome Fred, and welcome to the forum. :usa

Demo_Contractor
02-15-2013, 03:20 PM
Thanks for this thread, Im working on a G series 863 (1999) that wanders, there is allot of play in the aluminum dog bone on the left side that bolts to the hydro, that I believe I need to remedy before I can center this thing to neutral.

Anyhow, do I need to remove the "T" pipe in the middle coming out of the hydro to get this apart to remove that dog bone ?

One other questions, how do you get your pics to automatically open up on this forum ?

http://i1354.photobucket.com/albums/q689/demo_man_midwest/Picture002_zps009c1b1f.jpg

mrfixitpaul
02-15-2013, 06:46 PM
The pipe is long enough to allow the 'flat' plate to be moved enough for access to both aluminum arms.

willie59
02-15-2013, 07:00 PM
One other questions, how do you get your pics to automatically open up on this forum ?


Welcome to HEF Demo_Contractor. :drinkup

You have to get three posts to lose the probationary status, then you can download pics to forum. :)

Demo_Contractor
02-18-2013, 08:35 AM
Thanks for the replies, I tried lifting the plate up, but it was hanging on the two horizontal guide pins on the left side of the machine, I guess I need to play with it some more. Ive got a service manual coming for it, just dont have it yet, thanks, Bill

CJR72
02-18-2013, 07:45 PM
great pictorial ,this info is priceless,thankyou

BobCatMan
02-18-2013, 10:17 PM
Man,how in the world did I miss seeing this thread??? Great thread with great pics :)

willie59
02-18-2013, 10:36 PM
I hope it helps CJR72 and BobCatMan. :)

DrJim
03-30-2013, 11:47 PM
Willie59, you might remember my 773 puked hyd oil out the lift spool last October while I was stacking hay in the barn. I quickly parked it outside due to the pouring oil, and took it apart. Then other stuff ("life") happened, and next thing I knew it was March. Yes, 5+ months later--plenty of time to forget dang near everything. So. . . two weeks ago I found time to work on it. Went to HEF to brush up on the reassembly stuff, only to find that the forum was "down". lol It was a good test. Had to take all that stuff in the bucket and figure out how to put it back together.

What this has to do with "creeping Bobcat" is, while I had the spools valves out I changed the worn pintle arms and torsion bushings. I got back to the farm today, and YES!, I got the controls adjusted to perfect "neutral".

The biggest problem today was getting a cold motor, not started since October, sitting outside, with a now-dead battery, to start. . . with the controls not centered. Once I got it running and "unlocked", adjusting it was easy--thanks to your detailed posts. Mine had the second type of adjustment as described in this thread.

I left the bolts in the torsion bushings loose until the neutral centering steps were complete, then tightened the bolts and then the jam nuts with the pintles in perfect neutral.

Next: I need to edit my photos of the float detent and get them posted to the spool-valve thread. Thanks, friend, for these posts & threads. Happy Easter to all!

willie59
03-30-2013, 11:59 PM
Good to hear you got it sorted out Jim. :drinkup

BTW, got your voice message at work. I've been busy as a one legged man in a butt kicking contest with the rental stuff, maybe perchance I'll get out in Oak Ridge and meet up with ya for some Big Ed's Pizza. Then again, I never know where I'm gonna be until the phone rings. LoL :drinkup

DrJim
03-31-2013, 12:08 AM
If I buy Big Ed's pizza. . . we're only 10 minutes from the farm, and you might have to do a motor mount bolt consultation. But. . . you might go back with a MEL 1278 lol. You're likely to need it before I will.

myron60
05-02-2013, 03:47 PM
Hello, Willie
I have been watching this thread continuously for months now, finally was able to put my 1999 763 on blocks and fix my creepage, the problem I have is once I start it up and lift the cage it dies, even on medium throttle. My adjustment wasn't right, i have left reverse run not creep and it pulls hard left even with right stick all the way forward.
My question is, how do I lift the cage and it run without locking the drive annd chocking it down? Please help.
Thanks for a awesome thread and any help you can give.

willie59
05-02-2013, 09:13 PM
With the machine on supports, wheels off the ground, you have to have the seat bar down, start the engine, and immediately press the drive enable (brake release) button. If the adjustments are way off it will kill the engine before you can get brake released. It's kind of a trick when they get this way, sometimes you have to move position of drive levers to find spot where drive pumps aren't under load so you can release parking brake. I'm a small frame person, I can sit on that front entrance plate, facing rear of machine, start engine and immediately move drive levers to find the spot, then release brake. Once you get brake released you can raise cab, just be mindful you'll likely have wheels turning.

myron60
05-03-2013, 06:14 AM
Thanks Willie,
I can get it started and it does fine until I lift the cab, once the seat bar comes off its switch the machine bogs down and dies. I had made an adjustment attempt 2 days ago and was able to run with cage up. I did find that the owner before me had pieces of a tin can inserted around the left pintle arm stud. I took that out, lined every thing up as best I could and tightened up. Now it seems that I have that twisted bushing you were talking about earlier, because no matter what I do the left side pump seems to always be engaged. I am getting extremely frustrated, today will be my third day at trying to fix this. I can get it close, like yesterday I spent all day working and tweaking and finally got what I thought was neutral. I got in started it and no tire movement, moved the levers fwd, revs a couple no creeping, then I moved the left lever and the left side started creeping in revs.
Today I plan on trying to get the pumps disengaged, so I can find out if I messed it up by removing those pieces. Right now I have to push the left lever forward about 3 inches to disengage the pump.
Thank you again for any and all help.

willie59
05-03-2013, 07:22 PM
Sounds like you have the old style seat bar that swings backward toward operator. Take a big zip tie and tie that thing off so it doesn't swing back when you raise the cab. Adjusting those things can be tricky. At times I've got 'em spot on first go around. Other times, I've had to bust the adjusting bars and start all over again. Remember, If you've got the aluminum pintle arms, as you're on top of the machine looking toward rear of your machine, loosen the adjusting bar on your left (right side of machine), then proceed to adjust the bar on your right (left side of machine), get that side set first, then move to the opposite side.

dukeyjoe
05-04-2013, 07:30 PM
Thanks for another awesome thread. Been lurking on this site off and on for a couple of years and finally signed up. Great info here.
Duke

Rangers Lead The Way

willie59
05-04-2013, 08:14 PM
Welcome to HEF Duke. :drinkup

myron60
05-11-2013, 09:54 AM
Good morning, I finally got neutral set, but it won't go fwd or rev. Evidently I did something I shouldn't have, does anybody know what I might have done wrong?

willie59
05-11-2013, 08:33 PM
Does it make any noise when you push the drive sticks fwd/rev?

Do the loader arms and bucket tilt operate?

myron60
05-11-2013, 09:16 PM
Hi Willie,
Thanks for the reply, yes it makes a whining noise like the pumps are trying to engage but nothing. I didn't move any of that, all I did was lift the cage start it up and loosened both sides then pushed the left lever fwd to neutral and tightened it down, then I moved to the right and did the same thing. After tightening all bolts moved levers several time separately and together and then torqued to 45#. Still had neutral, so I put on ground and tried to back up would barely move, tried to move fwd and it almost wouldn't move. I don't remember whether the bucket worked or not, I do remember lifting and tilting the bucket to clear my blocks.
Again without a site like this and the people here, this would be a complete nightmare.
Thanks

willie59
05-11-2013, 09:37 PM
To be honest, I can't think of anything you could do in adjusting the neutral of the pintle arms that would cause you to lose fwd and rev drive on both sides.

I have to ask, are you certain the parking brake is releasing? If yes, and loader arms and bucket still work, I'm kind of stumped. :beatsme

myron60
05-11-2013, 10:43 PM
Thanks, I'll look at again tomorrow. Thanks again.

myron60
05-25-2013, 03:30 PM
Hey y'all,
I reset neutral, the bucket works, replaced the belt that connect to the pintle pump. I have been told that if the tensioner pulley on the pintle pump doesn't keep the right tension that will affect fwd and rev. My other options are to replace that spring and if that doesn't work replace the tensioner pulley on the main drive belt.
Every thing worked fine until I tried to fix neutral, now when I try to go fwd or rev, I get a growling type grinding that sound like something is not quite fully engaged.
I am at my wits end.
Thanks for all help.

dukeyjoe
06-26-2013, 10:19 PM
Thanks Willie,
Just replaced all torsion bushings front and back, flipped the bars and rotated the cams on my 773 F-series using this tutorial.

And thanks to some help from crewchief888, I, also, replaced the bics solenoid and stem, cause the one that was on it was rusted to the stem. This solved the lift/tilt problem. Tracked the brake solenoid pull side, white wire and realized it was hooked into the glow plug relay and vise versa. When I switched the plug ins to the correct relay, the machine quit blowing fuses, WAHOO!!! I'll be changing the relay for the glow plugs and all will be well! :D

willie59
06-26-2013, 10:40 PM
Good news to hear dukeyjoe. :drinkup

Randy88
06-27-2013, 06:37 AM
Excellent job of explaining this on bobcat, how about other brands like say new hollands, my 565 creeps, just haven't had time to look at it and figure out what's going on.

willie59
06-27-2013, 08:44 PM
I haven't worked on a NH Randy88, not a strong presence around these parts. Sorry I can't help with that one. :)

ValleyFirewood
11-27-2013, 02:07 AM
On my S250 it doesn't creep but I can hear hydro fluid flowing. Kinda of a pssshh noise. If I push the levers forward about 1/4" or so it stops. Another 1/4" or so and it starts again.

I'm guessing its barely in reverse. Is this worth messing with even? It's a 2003 or 2004 with about 3200hrs.

willie59
11-27-2013, 08:17 PM
As long as it's not creeping I wouldn't worry about it yet. Once you raise the seat bar to exit the machine it engages the parking brake. If it does begin creeping it will load the drive hydraulics against the parking brake, you'll want to adjust neutral at that point.

NH Murph
01-20-2014, 11:22 AM
I am a newby This tred is amazing. I have red the intire tred and have learned a great deal. Alittle knoledge is dangerious. I have a 743 BobCat Cerial #5019M30583 that creaps, after reading and studing this tred, I figured I could fix the 743 myself no swet looks easy. I am 71 years old have all the time in the world to do it.:) Placed BC on Jack stands. Raised OP Cage. Wow Murphys Law this is nothing like Willie95 Photos. Ahwell a little different it is on the side instead of on the top. (wrong) Well here goes I remove the conecting arms that go on to the steering linkage. I remove the spring (did use zip ties) :notworthy How do I remove the steering lingage bracket bar, it slides back and forth this is the plate the pintle is bolted to. What holds it to the Hydrolic Pump :confused:

willie59
01-20-2014, 10:21 PM
Sorry about that NH Murph. Yes, the 743 is very different, they have Vickers drive pumps with the centering plate mounted on the side of the pumps. I see you've already found help from crewchief at a different thread, you're in good hands with him. :)

Welcome to HEF. :drinkup