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View Full Version : hyundai problem CUMMINS LOOSING POWER



rustylhurtt
04-24-2009, 08:51 AM
I just got in the excavator business . I had a cat 321lcr rented for this fema job but now i have bought one . I bought a hyundai 180 lc 3 robex when it got here . You get in a hard dig or try to track up a steep hill it kills the engine . I believe it s a valve in the pump stuck . The cummins just pulls down and the dies . The motor is not missing and does not blow black smoke when it pulls down. Some one told me the relief valve is stuck doed any one know where the valve is located the guy i bought the machine from (400 miled away) said it was not doing this but it has set for 5 months so can any one help

DRESSTA1
04-24-2009, 09:04 AM
Typically if the hydraulics are dragging it down it would blow black smoke. It sounds like fuel filters to me . Try the simple things first.

dayexco
04-24-2009, 09:41 AM
have you, or the prior owners run it out of fuel a few times? we fried an injector pump on our cx210 case doing that. mechanic said that was the achille's heel of the cummins engines....running them out of fuel takes all lubrication of moving parts in injector pump, and doesn't take much to fry them.

willie59
04-24-2009, 09:21 PM
Kinda hard to say since we're not there to see/hear it. I agree with looking at fuel first. When your tracking up a hill, as you describe, and it pulls down; when the engine is near stall and you quickly let go of the drive levers, does the engine rev up quickly or very slowly? If slowly, I'd say you have a fuel delivery problem. If the engine revs quickly, then you go to drive again just to stall all over again, you could have a hyd pump that's doing an overstroke delivering more hyd oil than is needed by the system.

John C.
04-24-2009, 09:38 PM
I'm not saying this is your problem but I have experienced this on several machines that have Cummins engines. There is usually an in line "strainer" between the fuel tank and the transfer pump on the engine. It looks exactly like the inline fuel filters that used to be used in cars.

I have seen those strainers taken out and replaced with the filters from the local auto parts house.

The issue is that the strainer has a brass screen on the inside and is cleanable. It is there to catch the big pieces of junk that get in the tank. You simply take it out and blow air backwards through it, flush a little fuel or solvent in it and blow again till dry. The auto parts filters have paper inside and plug up pretty quickly either when water hits the paper of sludge gets in there. They are not cleanable at all. I would pull it out and look for part numbers or brand printing. You can get the proper strainer anywhere they sell parts for Cummins engines.

I have also seen the problem that ATCOEQUIP describes. At this point I hope the fuel system is the problem.

Good Luck!

rustylhurtt
04-24-2009, 11:22 PM
i canged the water seperator and fuel filter today and the machine is no better i also changed the hyd. filter no luck the either but the fuel filters were very dirty and alot of black crud ran out of them when turned up side down also when u let of the levers the engine revs up very fast i also noticed one track turns a little faster than the other could that have anything to do with it thanks for all your input

terex
04-25-2009, 04:41 AM
Im not saying this is your problem but I would agree with John C above that manafacturers often put 'in line' strainers between the fuel tank and the fuel filters, these strainers are often very small and can be hidden in fuel pipe unions or in the fuel tank itself. Try looking for one of these before ripping the pump to bits!

willie59
04-25-2009, 06:38 PM
i canged the water seperator and fuel filter today and the machine is no better i also changed the hyd. filter no luck the either but the fuel filters were very dirty and alot of black crud ran out of them when turned up side down also when u let of the levers the engine revs up very fast i also noticed one track turns a little faster than the other could that have anything to do with it thanks for all your input


If the engine revs back up quickly after the engine stall, doesn't sound like fuel is the problem. Although, you do have a fuel problem with all the crud. Your tank should have a drain tap on the bottom of it, you need to drain off the water and dregs at the bottom of the tank, do it frequently until fuel is clean. Can't offer an opinion yet about your hyd problem, I'm not familiar with the machine and it's components.

Iron Horse
04-25-2009, 06:50 PM
It would not be a relief valve problem . There would be no need for the valve to go into relief mode whilst tracking . It would only need to do this if you were stalling the tracks completely . How steep are the hills you are tracking up ?

Have you done ANYTHING to the machine since getting it ? Have you had a hydraulic quick hitch fitted ? Have you put hammer/auger pipes on it ? It sounds like the pump is dead heading for some reason .

rustylhurtt
04-25-2009, 10:49 PM
the machine pulls down when going up the ramps on my lowboy i also noticed the machine wont choke itself if your tracking foward and moving the boom or the bucket but if you stick the boom straight out and raise it fast it kills the engine thanks for all the sugestions also the machine does not have aux. hydrallics ive never turned a wrench on this machine just changed the filters also im having a little trouble getting the air out of the line after changing the fuel filters

willie59
04-25-2009, 10:53 PM
It would not be a relief valve problem . There would be no need for the valve to go into relief mode whilst tracking . It would only need to do this if you were stalling the tracks completely . How steep are the hills you are tracking up ?

Have you done ANYTHING to the machine since getting it ? Have you had a hydraulic quick hitch fitted ? Have you put hammer/auger pipes on it ? It sounds like the pump is dead heading for some reason .

I agree. Even if the main relief valve was stuck, the circuit reliefs should still work. The chances of multiple relief valves being stuck is...that's just too wierd! I'm still trying to determine if it's an engine or hyd problem. Let's review what we have so far; 1) while tracking steep hill or hard digging, engine stalls. 2) no significant black smoke while stalling under load, may not mean anything but still worth noting. 3) fuel filters changed, no change. And 4) engine revs up quickly after load (levers) is released. I still think one track faster than the other is a seperate issue at this point, but I could be wrong. One thing I have to ask here; it's a Cummins engine, does it have a wastegate valve on the turbo that has a hose/tubing line that goes to a fitting on the injection pump?

rustylhurtt
04-25-2009, 11:01 PM
I agree. Even if the main relief valve was stuck, the circuit reliefs should still work. The chances of multiple relief valves being stuck is...that's just too wierd! I'm still trying to determine if it's an engine or hyd problem. Let's review what we have so far; 1) while tracking steep hill or hard digging, engine stalls. 2) no significant black smoke while stalling under load, may not mean anything but still worth noting. 3) fuel filters changed, no change. And 4) engine revs up quickly after load (levers) is released. I still think one track faster than the other is a seperate issue at this point, but I could be wrong. One thing I have to ask here; it's a Cummins engine, does it have a wastegate valve on the turbo that has a hose/tubing line that goes to a fitting on the injection pump?

im not sure i will look in the morning and follow up

Iron Horse
04-26-2009, 12:09 AM
An excavator will display the symptoms you describe if it is in the high range position . High range is for light digging and fast tracking . If it is in high range it could stall going up the lowboy ramps and could stall in tough digging . Being new to this machine you may need to find the two speed control . It will either be a lever on the left consul or a Rabbit/Turtle switch on the dash .

rustylhurtt
04-26-2009, 12:39 AM
An excavator will display the symptoms you describe if it is in the high range position . High range is for light digging and fast tracking . If it is in high range it could stall going up the lowboy ramps and could stall in tough digging . Being new to this machine you may need to find the two speed control . It will either be a lever on the left consul or a Rabbit/Turtle switch on the dash .

thanks the machine tracks slow but the high low selector will not light up it tracks slower than the cat i had rented in low

Iron Horse
04-26-2009, 01:03 AM
When tracking , do you feel the machine pick up speed and slow down again when the switch is activated both ways ? I'd be having a good look in that area , the light not illuminating could be a tell tale of the problem .

rustylhurtt
04-26-2009, 01:11 AM
When tracking , do you feel the machine pick up speed and slow down again when the switch is activated both ways ? I'd be having a good look in that area , the light not illuminating could be a tell tale of the problem .

no the machine only runs one speed (very slow) the switch is on a screen with a with two lights (slow and fast) and a selector button but nothing is lit up thanks for all the sugestions

Iron Horse
04-26-2009, 01:42 AM
My machine has the same mechanical components as a Hyundai . Mine also has a Rabbit/Tortoise symbol and a switch in the dash . On mine , these are NOT hooked up even though they will illuminate . The two speed on mine is a lever on the left consul . Yours could be the same .

firetruck dvr.
04-26-2009, 10:44 AM
Hello rusty. I notice you are from Salem Ar. I am at Little Rock and just recieved A new 160lc from Equipment Resource Management in Maumelle. They are a top notch dealer and have a great mechanic. I have not had any issues with my machine, but I had a lenghty conversation with the mechanic before delivery of the machine. You might give them a call and see if they can come out?

John C.
04-26-2009, 01:24 PM
Now what you are describing sounds more like a pump and control problem. Basically somwhere there should be a speed sensor that will tell a controller the engine speed is dropping. The controller would actuate a solenoid on the pump to change a pilot oil pressure to cause the pump to destroke and relieve some of the flow of the pump and reduce the horsepower demand on the engine.

Your problem can be electrical concerning possibly a solenoid, wiring in the form of shorts or breaks or the controller itself. The problem can also be hydraulic with plugged passages or stuck control spools. Finally your pump could be mechanically broken inside.

All this is the reason I stated you should hope the problem is in the fuel supply to the engine.

Judging from your posts I am going to assume you have limited knowledge of the systems on this machine and recommend that you contact a dealer for service. That brand of machine is not real common in this country, is usually not well supported, provides little technical information to customers and only parses out that knowledge to their own support personnel as things happen. You may be lucky though in that most of the component parts such as pumps and electrical components may be used on other manufacturer's machines.

Good Luck!

willie59
04-26-2009, 09:30 PM
Pump and/or control problem is my inclination as well, but it's too hard to tell without being there hearing/seeing the machine. As John C described, it gets way more complex when you have to troubleshoot pump/control problems on a forum because excavators have very complex systems. That's what allows you to have a machine that can be slinging bucket loads of dirt into a truck very rapidly then in a moment change to a machine that can gently scoop the Robin's nest off the ground that you just bumped out of that tree with your counterweight. I just have that one more question about the engine I would like to eliminate. I don't know which Cummins engine the machine has, but some Cummins engines use a turbo wastegate valve that is controlled by turbo boost pressure. The line that sends pressure to the wastegate is also connected to the injection pump and controls fuel to the engine. When the waste gate valve craps out and leaks boost pressure, the loss of pressure affects fuel to the engine as well, then the engine runs fine but is gutless as far as power. :)

DRESSTA1
04-26-2009, 10:24 PM
I agree with ATCOEQUIP. Check the wastegate valve for operation. It could be a broken line, ruptured diaphram or mechanically stuck.The next thing I would do is lock one track up and put it in relief. Then lock the other side up and put it over relief. You can do that by using the bucket teeth or a block of wood. RPM's should be the same. Typically MFG's have a pump for each track.

rustylhurtt
04-26-2009, 10:44 PM
good news everybody ive fixed the machine it had two problems that resulted one it had tha algae in the diesel that had a line stopped up i flushed it out and it was better but not perfect then i noticed a cut wire on the battery i repaired it my lcd screen lights all came on and its it works great now i am new to this forum but i really appreciate all the helpfull info does anyone know where to get a manual for this machine thanks again

willie59
04-26-2009, 11:05 PM
good news everybody ive fixed the machine it had two problems that resulted one it had tha algae in the diesel that had a line stopped up i flushed it out and it was better but not perfect then i noticed a cut wire on the battery i repaired it my lcd screen lights all came on and its it works great now i am new to this forum but i really appreciate all the helpfull info does anyone know where to get a manual for this machine thanks again

All right! Glad you got it fixed! :) This one just didn't sound right from the get-go to troubleshoot on a forum, too many things that can cause the problem. Algae in the fuel? Yeah, that can screw things up in a hurry! You need to either drain the fuel or use it up to an empty tank quickly then add some fresh fuel to the tank. Keep draining that tank to get all the dregs and water out of it. The bad wire at the battery? What's up with that? Any excavator should only have "battery cables" connected to the batteries, nothing else. If you have additional wires connected to the battery terminals, there's something not right. :beatsme

Iron Horse
04-27-2009, 04:42 AM
then i noticed a cut wire on the battery i repaired it my lcd screen lights all came on and its it works great now i am new to this forum but i really appreciate all the helpfull info does anyone know where to get a manual for this machine thanks again

Does that mean the two speeds are now working ?

rustylhurtt
04-27-2009, 08:23 AM
Does that mean the two speeds are now working ?
yep the two speeds are working the there are two wires that run to the battery you can tell they are factory wires and one was broke thanks for all the help

AtlasRob
04-27-2009, 03:37 PM
Any excavator should only have "battery cables" connected to the batteries, nothing else. If you have additional wires connected to the battery terminals, there's something not right.

Naw sorry on this one Atco, I dont consider it unusual for there to be additional small wires at the battery. I admit sometimes its a cowboy radio connection :rolleyes: and I would not like to have to explain what any of those additional wires do :o but its not unusual in my experience. :drinkup

willie59
04-27-2009, 09:14 PM
Naw sorry on this one Atco, I dont consider it unusual for there to be additional small wires at the battery. I admit sometimes its a cowboy radio connection :rolleyes: and I would not like to have to explain what any of those additional wires do :o but its not unusual in my experience. :drinkup

Your absolutely right, and I don't disagree. I guess I just meant "for it to be proper, there should only be battery cables connected to the battery.", and I'll admit there could be exceptions, but most excavators operate with a battery disconnect solenoid with all the power supply distributed by that solenoid. If "other wires" are connected to the battery terminals, it could indicate that someone has done a little monkey work on the wiring. I guess I'm just kinda picky about things being as they should be and being nice and tidy. When someone brings me a machine to repair, I make every effort to do it proper so their problem is fixed and they're happy. ;)

John C.
04-27-2009, 09:17 PM
Congratulations and thanks for letting us know what you found.

I have seen extra wires coming off the batteries but usually they are in molded terminal ends. What happens is the end gets corroded and when they are replaced with the auto parts store terminals the extra wires are cut and reconnected to the battery bolt. I'm also thinking this is a Hyundai and there are some funny things done with wiring even from the factory.

Thanks again!

willie59
04-27-2009, 09:25 PM
I'm also thinking this is a Hyundai and there are some funny things done with wiring even from the factory.

Sounds like you know them far better than I, John. I haven't had the pleasure of working on a Hyundai. :tong

rustylhurtt
04-27-2009, 09:31 PM
thanks everyone for your help i couldnt of done it with all the help thanks again

AtlasRob
05-03-2009, 02:44 PM
usually they are in molded terminal ends. What happens is the end gets corroded and when they are replaced with the auto parts store terminals the extra wires are cut and reconnected to the battery bolt.

That is a very good point John, and could quite easily be what I have seen. :drinkup

BIGJOE
05-03-2009, 04:16 PM
Some machines are more tempormental than others with fuel. I would drain the fuel tank. I know this is a pain but there might be debris clogging the bottom of the tank. I have had machines that suck in debris and clog the line. I use an air line and blow back into the tank. When the motor can't get its required fuel flow when under load, it will bog down. Once you let up on the load, the motor will come right back up to high RPM. You can run a machine wide open sitting in one place with no hydraulic function. Once you move the controls, the machine will bog hard. This is a classic fuel problem.

The main problem I have seen over the years is the fuel supplier. Some are better than others. You will not believe the junk you will find in your fuel if you have auto delivery from a fuel truck. Some machines will eat it up, others are very delicate. I know for a fact the Cummins is a delicate fuel machine from hard experience with multiple motors in the field.

**You also have to watch the low pressure fuel pump which is the same unit you hand pump to prime the machine. This is key to performance. When it gets weak, you will have a hard time priming the machine and keeping it running. Other than these two problem areas, the Cummins is an extremely reliable machine. Although not excatly a fuel "sipper".

rustylhurtt
05-03-2009, 06:08 PM
Some machines are more tempormental than others with fuel. I would drain the fuel tank. I know this is a pain but there might be debris clogging the bottom of the tank. I have had machines that suck in debris and clog the line. I use an air line and blow back into the tank. When the motor can't get its required fuel flow when under load, it will bog down. Once you let up on the load, the motor will come right back up to high RPM. You can run a machine wide open sitting in one place with no hydraulic function. Once you move the controls, the machine will bog hard. This is a classic fuel problem.

The main problem I have seen over the years is the fuel supplier. Some are better than others. You will not believe the junk you will find in your fuel if you have auto delivery from a fuel truck. Some machines will eat it up, others are very delicate. I know for a fact the Cummins is a delicate fuel machine from hard experience with multiple motors in the field.

**You also have to watch the low pressure fuel pump which is the same unit you hand pump to prime the machine. This is key to performance. When it gets weak, you will have a hard time priming the machine and keeping it running. Other than these two problem areas, the Cummins is an extremely reliable machine. Although not excatly a fuel "sipper".

thanks ive got some trash in the fuel tank i think ive got it out its done it to me three times