3 Questions about backhoes

[Jeff D.]

I've 3 questions about backhoes/excavators:

1)What is "breakout force",and where is it measured on the backhoe?At the bucket teeth?

2)I have trouble loading my dump truck directly with the backhoe.When I raise the bucket high enough to clear the side of the truck,much of the dirt will fall out of the bucket before clearing the edge of the box,especially if there is clumps of sod or roots,etc.Changing the bucket pivot pin from "A" to "B" would cause the bucket to fold under farther,but would reduce the leverage(power)of the bucket.(See pic. below)Would this be an acceptable "fix" for the spillage problem,or is there another technique,or attachment,that I could use,short of getting a bigger(Taller) backhoe?

3)Would changing the pivot pin hole reduce the "breakout force",or possibly cause synchronization problems operating the controls,as it seems that the rates that the bucket folds in,and the dipper(?) draws back,are timed very well when both levers all pulled fully back together?Changing the pivot would cause the bucket to fold quicker.
Ie: will I have to alter the rate of bucket "fold" at the control,instead of relying on the "balance" that the valves now have at fully applied position?

(I do realize that the job often requires using each control independently,but when able,it was nice to rely on the "balance" that the controls had when digging.I wouldn't want to make it anymore difficult than it already is! :) )

My apologies if these questions seem silly,but I'm still learning.Thanks!

[Cat420]

1. I believe break out force is measured at the teeth since that is where it gets used. I would define it is the measure of how much force the hydraulics of the machine are able to exert at the teeth by pushing on the bucket linkage geometry.
2. This is due to the rotation (or lack there of) of the bucket. Changing your pivot points will improve your bucket rotation and let you curl it up more, thus spilling less material, but it will sacrifice break out force due to giving up leverage in order to gain rotation.
3. I wouldn't worry to much about any synchronization problems if you change the pivot point. Your brain will most likely adjust pretty quickly to the change.

It appears from your picture that you have a Ford. I ran one once and didn't care much for the bucket. It was a little to long for my liking (from pivot to tip of teeth) and didn't seem to curl up or out enough either. Perhaps you might see if a local dealer will let you demo a different bucket to see if it cures this problem. In my estimation Geith is like the Buck Knife of buckets, you might want to give one a try.

[littledenny]

Far as I know, breakout is measured at the cutting edge. I'm not sure where the ends of the teeth fall into the equation.

As for the bucket linkage, the second set of holes are specifically for "the truck loading position", and are often labeled that way. You are changing the geometry of the linkage with the resulting changes in leverage and relative speeds. Agree that your reactions should change quickly to compensate for the curl rates.

You might want to simply leave the linkage as it is, and sit the hoe on higher ground that the truck, at least when you can. Track hoes, loading trucks always sit on the pile when they can, for just this reason. If you're trying to dig a trench, and load directly into a tall truck, guess all bets are off.

[Jeff D.]

Thanks Guys for the info. I think I will move the pin and try it out.

Cat420,your right about it being a Ford.It is the only backhoe I've owned,and have only operated one other (briefly) so I don't have much experience to go on.The bucket does seem large for the backhoe,but I thought it was because a cemetary had owned it before me,and needed a large(wide) bucket for the graves.

I may check around and see if I can find a smaller bucket to try out.I'll ask about the Geith also.

Anythings better than having to dump the dirt in a pile,and then load it with the skid-steer.That seemed too time consuming.

Thanks again,

[xlr8]

If you are digging a trench and need to load it out try fully raising the machine up with the front bucket then the stabilizers. You might have to place backhoe bucket on the ground and boom down to get the stabilizers down all the way , but this should help that part of your problem.

[Bob Horrell]

I have found that it takes just about the same amount of time to pile the dirt on the ground and then load with the front loader as it does to load a truck with the backhoe bucket. The front loader holds so much more dirt for each load and it is quicker to dig and pile the dirt than swing up and dump in a truck with the hoe. I know there are some jobs where piling it on the ground is not an option (working on grass etc.) but whenever possible I pile it and then load with the loader.

[xkvator]

The bucket does seem large for the backhoe,but I thought it was because a cemetary had owned it before me,and needed a large(wide) bucket for the graves.
cemetary buckets have a dif. pin location so that it's easier to cut the far wall vertical, but doesn't let the bucket curl up.

i sometimes park the truck 90* to the backhoe, lower the tailgate parallel with the floor, and load in with the backhoe bucket that way.

[Lawton Hicks]

Have to agree with dumping and front loading, has always saved me alot of time and hydraulic wear. Good luck with the linkage.
Lawton, "The Rookie"

[Countryboy]

Welcome to HEF Lawton Hicks! :drinkup

[Jeff D.]

Have to agree with dumping and front loading, has always saved me alot of time and hydraulic wear. Good luck with the linkage.
Lawton, "The Rookie"Thanks Lawton, and like CB mentioned, welcome to HEF.:drinkup

Fortunately, or unfortunately maybe, I've not had alot of occasions to load a dumptruck out with the backhoe since. The times I have I've been able to pile it and use a wheel loader. This made it much easier than using my lil Bobcat , which was on it's tippy toes to dump over the side of the bed.

Concerning the linkage, not long after I originally posted this I removed the pin on the bucket to switch it to the other pin location, and found the pin was scored and worn enough I decided to have the link repaired and a new pin made.

After it was done I was unable to use the other pin setting due to an interferance problem with the much larger new boss hitting the bucket before it would line up.:Banghead I can only use the pin setting that was shown in the pic, and never was able to try the other way.

That particular bucket is just too big for for most of the jobs I've used it in. It's like digging in the dirt with a snow shovel, on my backhoe. Just haven't found a smaller, better suited one yet.:rolleyes:

[hmover]

I can add another possible silly question. Would a 42" bucket on the back of a 580sd be a cemetary bucket??Thanks

[Jeff D.]

I can add another possible silly question. Would a 42" bucket on the back of a 580sd be a cemetary bucket??ThanksHmover, I don't know that answer. I don't know what a cemetery bucket's size is, just that my backhoe was owned by a cemetery previously.

My bucket is 24" wide. Although that's not a big bucket, my backhoe isn't too big either. I don't know how it would compare in size to your 580sd, but it's 14ft from tooth to swing pivot (reach) and the tractor weigh's approx somewhere between 10-12k, I think. It has enough hydraulic power for the bucket, but not enough tractor weight, IMO, or I need more practice on it, which is quite possibly alot of my problem.

When I get the bucket hooked into hard ground I'm dragging the tractor all over the place.:Banghead :o

Anyways, hopefully someone will have a better answer for you.

[Idigmywork]

Hello all. I like to look at things in reverse. :rolleyes:
Maybe the remedy to the problem is the height of the truck being loaded...:my2c

[GaryKelley]

More than one way to skin the proverbial Cat, unless you are having to move the truck down the ditch, why not dig a hole for the back tires, just slope it enough on the FRONT edge of the holes to drive it out, even if you do have to give it a little push-shove from behind..

[RJG]

...

[Cavalo]

I have been waiting to get accepted into this forum to give you an answer to one of your probelems.......... first of all, I believe break-out force on a backhoes rear is measured at the base of the shanks on a standard bucket, however there is alot of other factors such as you mentioned on where your pins are located and also the shape of your bucket, which brings me to your other question. I can see by the picture you have up there that the bucket you are using is a big part of why you are having problems with stuff staying in your bucket when loading a truck. You need a flat bottom bucket with more of a "heel" if you know what I am talking about. Unfortunately you are using a ford style bucket are you not?? and the boom also has a lot to do with this as I once had a John Deere Hoe that had a longer boom and a short stick and that was excellent for loading trucks because you could keep the stick on a downward slope as you where crossing over the side boards of the truck, because of the long boom and not having to jack yourself up so high to do this. You are correct when you say that changing the pins is good on one end but not on the other...........alot of the new machines with quick couplers are designed to be good on both ends, such as digging a small hlle with a straight back side and yet being able to curl all the way to hold something as well. I hope this helps...........
Mikee

[SouthOnBeach]

the neighbor used to have an old ford that we used a lot before we got our case 580sk. ah the memories of running it... 4 lever backhoe with more bushing slop then one would ever want. had to factor in how much it would move after you wanted it to stop moving. ahhhhhh the good old days. :rolleyes: i do remember it did have a pretty large bucket on it, thinking 24". take a good bite in some hard dirt and you could drag the machine right into a hole. i don't remember having a problem loading a truck as far as it dirt spilling out. but i'm thinking it had a newer style bucket on it. one where the top is rounded instead of flat like yours is. :beatsme i just remember you had to take your time doing something, but it would get it done.

[Jeff D.]

Thank you Gentlemen for all the replies.:)

Since I posted this thread I have come too realize that either having the backhoe (or excavator) raised, or somehow lowering the truck is a very viable solution to one of my problems.:drinkup

As for my bucket "size" problem. To be honest, in the two + years since I posted this thread, other than as a hobbiest, I've had little use of my backhoe and I'm not famliar with the relationship with bucket size, reach, and machine weight, when it comes to good balance.

To me, my 24" bucket seems "big" on my lil' old backhoe. It also does seem rather deep to me too, or to have a large capacitcy for it's width.:beatsme

Maybe it is a "Ford" thing?!:D

I do appreciate all the input, and I'm sure I'm not the only one still learning, so.........