GPS and the Small Time Operator

[roddyo]

I was wondering who has the smallest operation running a GPS system? :beatsme In ten years we will most likely all have one but right know the costs is to high for most operations.

This would be a good place to give people an idea of the cost of a GPS setup and what's involved in running one. This is something I am Really intrested in as I know nothing about GPS.:Banghead I would also like to hear how it changed your operation?

Thanks, Rod
:usa

[Red Bank]

I have no knowledge of working with GPS, however the local Cat dealer had a open house a couple of weeks ago and inside the shop they had mini booths set up outlining all of their services and products, one was GPS. The cool thing was the people running the booths were capable of quoting prices right there on the spot. Not really helping you out, but if you get a rainy day maybe a trip to the local Cat dealer could help you out with your questions?

[Boophoenix]

I was recently on a job that had a topcon unit in the dozer and a hand unit the super used. They are a very large company, but I took the time to check it out a little. We were padding lots for a builder and it was awesome.

We padded probably 30 lots in 8 days within a specs including two geo inspections per section. The lots were spread out the longest run was maybe 8 lots in a row of varied elevations. We had one offroad truck my on road truck a d6 and a 320b loading. The super staked and the house and lot pins in about 30 minutes per 10 lots when I wasn't asking him questions about the system.

As he had done all the site work he had the as built plans and could find anything in seconds. When these things become more afordable it will definatly change field a lot. When it gets to were you can get a copy of as builts that are reliable there will be no more wondering were things are or one call missing the marks and hitting things you shouldn't.

Up untill the down turn in housing I did a lot of work behind a surveying company and they had a tendancy to be way off. Houses 3 or 4 foot out of square. Come back and repin a lot and move the hole house. Not a big deal to me on a flat lot but very anoying on basement cutouts. Since I'd have to come back and cut again if they moved the basement pins which was often, and time lost in getting the foundation guys in to get started.


To the price question I think the super told me there system was around 20k. The kicker to it is going to be converting the plans to the instrument if ya don't have access to the developers files. The system I looked at could be edited on site with the hand unit or the memory card put into a pc for editing or upgrading. There was a draw back on the file size of the card but was large enough to cover an average subdivision. This may have just been the size of there memory cards or a software issue I'm unsure.

If I stay in the field I'll have one in a couple of years if the developers files start to become avalible.

[pushcat]

We have 1 D6M set up with GPS, and I'm the only one who operates it. I also do the survey work with the rover. I just do the topo before we start the job, no setting grade stakes, and we have a secretary who then transfers that information and the new design to a flash card for the dozer. It's hard to get engineers to do that for you when you don't need them to survey for you anymore.
We've had this for 5 or 6 years now, and back then it would have cost around $400,000 for the entire setup, including a new GPS ready dozer. But we already had the 6M, it was low houred and rarely used so we had it fitted. I also thought that in 5 years time everyone would have it, but it doesn't seem to be catching on. There's no way in Billyheck that most people can justify owning something like this, but jeezopetes, it sure does make life a little simpler.

[zhkent]

This is how I understand it, there has to be a base station sat up to achieve accuracy.
Have heard in KC metro there have been base stations sat up at strategic points to provide coverage to the whole area, to which a person could subscribe.
In rural areas not sure the accuracy is there without the base station.
Anybody know the accuracies without the base station?
Pushcat- Your providing the topo to put on the flash, Does an engineering or architect firm provide the "new design" to put on the flash?

[pushcat]

You have to have a base station at a set location, or else you have no reference point to triangulate your measurements from. The GPS systems used in cars just receive information bounced off satelites and back to the car. The systems used in earthmoving are different. The base stays in the exact same spot, sending and receiving info from satelites, which should always be the same, and sending and receiving info to the dozer, which is moving and also receiving info from satelites. The computer on the dozer compares all the info being received and adjusts accordingly. Without the base you wouldn't have 3-D vision and the accuraccy wouldn't be near good enough. That's about clear as mud.:beatsme
As for the designs, we do that ourselves anymore. We got the computer software when we bought the system, we were just too intimidated to try it. But after going to a couple classes put on Trimble, it's really kind of simple once you get on to it.

[zhkent]

Will it work without a design in it?
If the base station was up could you program on the fly to cut a flat pad?

[Turbo21835]

Without a design? Not sure, but i do know on an existing design you can create your own. Say you wanted to cut a swale. All you have to do is set point A and go to where you want point B. If i remember correctly you can set up a percentage of fall on that also

[zhkent]

So can designs be used like templates, where you'd have a standard design and then modify it as needed?

[pushcat]

You're able to program in levels and slopes right in the machine without a design. Say you wanted to build a pad 1 foot higher than a curb. Set your blade on the curb, click on set new level, or edit level if you already have one programmed, click this level on whatever point on the blade you are using, then set the vertical offset for 1 foot higher. Same way with slopes, only with 2 points. I built a lot of waterways this fall using the GPS, cut the bottoms on grade with automatics, then clicked up the vertical offset to whatever the depth was called for, then cut the shoulders to that level. Then I just set the cut for the quarterpoints, cleaned my windrows up, and was done. I was able to fill out my checkout sheets by using the elevations on the display screen, never had to leave the machine.

As for modifying whole site designs on site, in the machine, I can't do it. The computer in the dozer doesn't have the software. If I find a design flaw, and there is always at least one, we have a second flashcard in the office with the same design as a backup. I will call back and explain the problem and try to walk whoever is working on it through the problem. They have the same design in front of them on a computer as I have sitting in the dozer looking at my screen. When we get it solved we just swap cards.

[cregadkins]

Back to some of the original questions posted by roddyo. We have contractors in our area who own only 3-4 machines running GPS. The cost to outfit an "AccuGrade Ready" or "Trimble Ready" machine is around $55,000.00. You would also need to purchase a Base Station/ Rover package which runs about $45,000.00. You can run an unlimited number of machines on one base station on a job site. The power of these systems is nothing short of awesome.

[Turbo21835]

The power of these systems is nothing short of awesome.

This is very true, but there are those out there that have yet to learn that these systems are only as good as the information that is put on them.

[cregadkins]

Absolutely! Goes back to the old "Garbage in- Garbage out" principal.

[AGGIE SURVEYOR]

This is very true, but there are those out there that have yet to learn that these systems are only as good as the information that is put on them.

Yes, but when done right it is an invaluable tool. I have contractors using it on one finish dozer to those with a whole fleet. We build models on the run and run quantities daily. It doesn't take near as much money to set up an indicate only system that can be upgraded to full automation when desired. I spent six years as a superintendent and don't know how we made money without it.

[CEwriter]

Here's a story about a smallish startup company that is built around GPS machine control. Has some cost detail, but it was written in 2005.

Startup Quadruples Revenue with GPS Grade Control
(http://www.constructionequipment.com/article/CA6288266.html)

Larry

[roddyo]

Here's a story about a smallish startup company that is built around GPS machine control. Has some cost detail, but it was written in 2005.

Startup Quadruples Revenue with GPS Grade Control
(http://www.constructionequipment.com/article/CA6288266.html)

Larry

Thanks Larry,

Very inytresting.

[Johnny English]

We had a demo from our local Leica sales rep, the smart rover survey system can work just off the satalites with no base station to with-in an accuracy of 10-15mm. It sketched on the screen what you had surveyed and everything, was good for setting out too. Don't know if this accuracy has been put to machine control yet though without a base station.

[AGGIE SURVEYOR]

We had a demo from our local Leica sales rep, the smart rover survey system can work just off the satalites with no base station to with-in an accuracy of 10-15mm. It sketched on the screen what you had surveyed and everything, was good for setting out too. Don't know if this accuracy has been put to machine control yet though without a base station.

That is news to me. Every system I have been around needs a base station or reference statio. Some use the reference system for rough grade and it works well, but the latency with using modems can cause grading errors that wouldn't be acceptable for finish grade work. I have one customer that uses the airlink mopdem to tie into a network on his scrapers which are indicate only and then uses the base station for the motorgrader when they are on seperate projects.

[grunk36]

We had a demo from our local Leica sales rep, the smart rover survey system can work just off the satalites with no base station to with-in an accuracy of 10-15mm. It sketched on the screen what you had surveyed and everything, was good for setting out too. Don't know if this accuracy has been put to machine control yet though without a base station.

every survey system works that way today the system has build in a gsm sim card and will call an virtual reference station so it still needs an base station it will just call one instead and by the way this kind of system do not work on an dozer
there is NO gps grading systems yet that will work with acceptable tolerances without a base station....

[RentEquipment]

It works, basicly customize your own GPS system.

GPS tracking solutions
Low-cost hardware
Maintenance tracking
Remote engine hour monitoring
100% Web-based software
Share visibility with customers
Automatic alert reporting
Decreased insurance costs

We use it on some of our rental machines...

[Flewy_86]

It works, basicly customize your own GPS system.




Without wanting to sound rude, how do you expect any operators of GPS Machine Guidance systems to 'basically customize their own GPS solution.

With all due respect, I would imagine most user's on this forum are experts in their chosen area of work and would have little or no working knowledge of the GPS or 3D mapping sides of things. And why would they, these are separate paths of work entirely, but can be brought together if managed correctly.

Why would anyone want to become involved in these systems if it requires a very steep learning curve in getting to grips with GPS usage and complex 3D mapping? Who wants the stress of all that when doing your normal day to day routine?

I'm seeing a lot of conflicting information on here about 'how it works' and some of it is way off. I think the manufacturers need to think long and hard about just how and what they are selling and the support they offer. It simply doesn't need to be this hard to offer this technology to all. I feel they are being deeply cynical in their approach to the whole marketplace.


Cheers, Dave Flew

[CEwriter]

Dave,

It certainly requires going above and beyond your normal routine to learn how to apply grade-control systems. But as the profile of the company I posted earlier suggests, you make the effort because it cuts your cost of production dramatically.

Adoption of the technology continues to climb steeply, and I think the answer to your "why" question is very often, "Somebody I compete with is using automatic grade control and their bids are kicking my butt."

Other automatic grade control user profiles:

Kokosing's Support of Grade Control Improves Profits (http://www.constructionequipment.com/article/CA6594130.html)

Profits Reward Contractors Who Adapt to 3D Grade Controls (http://www.constructionequipment.com/article/CA6329616.html)

High-Tech Grade Control Hits Slipform Pavers (http://www.constructionequipment.com/article/CA6296286.html)

Grade-Control Systems with Added Dimension (http://www.constructionequipment.com/article/CA469263.html)

Hope this helps,

Larry

[Flewy_86]

Hi Larry,

Just re-reading my post and I must admit I come across as a sceptic par excellence! The truth is actually the exact opposite!

I fully understand what you mean, I was trying to point out that just expecting people to find their own way with these systems wasn't really good enough.

I'm a Land surveyor with a good working knowledge of GPS systems and have been aware of machine guidance for several years.
I recently hooked up with Prolec and I'm setting up a complete one stop service to provide everything necessary to complete each job confidently.

I have taken a different tack to most by offering access to all my surveying, modelling and mapping background to each and every client if needed.

For example, I rent and erect and maintain the GPS Base used for each site, and ensure the RTK network it pumps is correct and working. I calibrate each and every piece of plant running GPS, so that everyone can rest easy it'll work well.

If you have plans that need converting to a DTM, or custom modelling, even the original Topo survey, I do it in house and ensure its working correctly, on every machine.

I supply and fit every kit and tailor it specifically for my clients needs, including either bespoke or off the shelf GPS solutions.
I'm currently working on a full Triple channel antenna set up with custom internals, to bring ultra high end GPS solutions to the man with a digger for a much more palatable price than current Dual channel antenna's.


I have used this system extensively and had enormous success with it, and I'll hold my hand up and admit i'm no excavator driver, a few days experiance at best, but it allowed me to working confidently all day long, producing pretty complex features.


I'm just saddened that GPS isn't as welcomed as it should be, but I think too many guys are feaful of making that leap, espescially due to the cost, because they feel they'll be left high and dry with it the first time theres trouble with it. Proper support, I believe would certainly help to get more people involved with this technology and enjoy using and reaping the benefits.

Cheers, Dave

[t_dirt]

Back to the original question!! There are very small guys, 2 dozers, 1-2 excavators, loader, any smal misc machines with GPS Systems. A base and rover are now around $20,000 to $30,000 and machines as low as $50,000. So $75,000. What if you can grade twice as fast? 1500 hours per year on a dozer in a small company, $100 per hour operating cost, so what if he get "2,500 hours" of work done(say 66% more), he saves 1000 hours at $100= That's $100,000!!!!
OK maybe those numbers are not perfect, but EVERY person who has bought GPS says that the pay back is much faster than they thought it would be..
Almost all Developers and owners will get you the file Acad if you explain to them that you will be saving them money!!!!

[Arabhacks]

Hello.

Very few people run Differential Global Positioning System, the system that is a fixed base run by the USCG.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_GPS
BUT, a properly adjusted DGPS unit in conjunction with a base configured as the offset reference will give you 0.3 inch accuracy over its full range, up to 7 miles!
That is correct, ONE base, whatever number of rovers you want, up to 7 miles, .3 inch.
So, where is the problem?
Simple, who is going to set up an offset base?
This is a satellite receiver as well as everything else that a base does.
The answer is, there are companies that indeed do provide a subscription service.
But, the most advanced solution so far is only in the hands of the government.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Advanced_GPS_Receiver
At some point this technology will be released to the public, just like GPS was, but for now, the most cost effective solution is to use a low power base and do a physical reference to it.