4 Years Ago Today

[Steve Frazier]

19 cowards set out on a mission to strike fear in the hearts of Americans. For the first few hours they were successful, but that fear soon turned to anger and resolve! America's crime? Having different theological beliefs than those of their attackers.

4 years have passed since that awful day, people are rebuilding lives and several plans have been put forth on what to do with the Trade Tower. Life is becoming somewhat normal, but the world was changed forever that day. We have witnessed evil at its worst, but we must persevere. Good will overcome evil, it must remain in our hearts.

We must never forget what happened that horrible day. Over 3000 innocent American lives were lost to religious fanatics. This website (http://www.thetexaseagle.com/heroes/remember.htm) offers a slide show in memorial of those lost. I must warn you however, it is graphic and quite moving. Take a few moments to watch and remember.

[Cat420]

I understand that this is a sensitive issue, but there are many complex reasons for why we are disliked. I do not excuse the killing of innocent people, but I often wonder how many problems are of our own making. How many times have we overthrown leaders, supported the new guy until he turns on us and then declare him the enemy? People will only tolerate so much interference before they resist. It is not our freedom, but our foreign policy that angers people the most. Also one of the things that separates terrorist from patriots, is who wins in the end (If England had won the revolution, then we would be nothing more than terrorists in their history)
Here's some interesting reading. http://www.vexen.co.uk/USA/hateamerica.html
http://www.doublestandards.org/enemies.htm
http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/MiddleEast/TerrorInUSA/Why.asp

I truly feel bad for anyone who lost loved ones, but if we truly care about preventing more attacks, we need to realize that violence only leads to more violence.

[chipsearthworks]

That was very nice Steve, I think we all need to be reminded about what happen 4 years ago today It is just human nature to try to forget and move on but we must NEVER FORGET and NEVER FORGIVE. :usa :usa :usa :usa :salute :salute

[PSDF350]

Cat420 foreign affairs is just part of any goverment since the begining of civilitation. Just the way things are done. Do you want so and so running the place that dont like outsiders. Or do you want mr nice guy that likes us. Ok it's mr nice guy, what do we need to do to put him in power. every nation plays there lttle games.
Stronger you make your allies the stronger you are. There will always be those that dont like us. I also believe that all problms dont all go back to religion. I believe alot of it also happens to be that we the strongest nation on earth also happens to be the youngest. :usa

[Steve Frazier]

Dave, there are a number of nations that are younger than this one, many of the countries I learned about in South America while in school no longer exist. I remember doing a report on French Guiana, that one is gone now.

The middle east tribes have been fighting among themselves for thousands of years, it has been over a difference in religion. I spoke with one of these fanatics a few years before September 11 at a job I was working, they truly believe that anyone of a different religion, or even a different version of their own religion are swine. His anger concerned me and I wrote him off as just nuts, but after learning of the beliefs of the terrorists that flew the planes, I was angry with myself for not taking it more seriously. His rantings echoed those of the extremists we read about.

Maybe we'd have been better off here in America if we had just let them continue to fight among themselves, at least short term, but sooner or later they would figure out that fighting is weakening them, or one faction would overwhelm the others and absorb the other tribes. If that were to happen we'd be faced with a much larger group who would probably be looking for a new enemy to fight and conquer.

I'm not pro war, but I do believe you must hold your enemies at a manageable level so they do not have the ability or even the will to attempt to invade your area. If we come to the aid of a group that closest values the same qualities we do, they would be more likely to remain an ally rather than become an enemy. I have always come to the aid of someone who is being bullied, not only because it is morally right, but it prevents that bully from gaining strength in numbers.

[Cat420]

Dave, there are a number of nations that are younger than this one, many of the countries I learned about in South America while in school no longer exist. I remember doing a report on French Guiana, that one is gone now.

The middle east tribes have been fighting among themselves for thousands of years, it has been over a difference in religion. I spoke with one of these fanatics a few years before September 11 at a job I was working, they truly believe that anyone of a different religion, or even a different version of their own religion are swine. His anger concerned me and I wrote him off as just nuts, but after learning of the beliefs of the terrorists that flew the planes, I was angry with myself for not taking it more seriously. His rantings echoed those of the extremists we read about.

Maybe we'd have been better off here in America if we had just let them continue to fight among themselves, at least short term, but sooner or later they would figure out that fighting is weakening them, or one faction would overwhelm the others and absorb the other tribes. If that were to happen we'd be faced with a much larger group who would probably be looking for a new enemy to fight and conquer.

I'm not pro war, but I do believe you must hold your enemies at a manageable level so they do not have the ability or even the will to attempt to invade your area. If we come to the aid of a group that closest values the same qualities we do, they would be more likely to remain an ally rather than become an enemy. I have always come to the aid of someone who is being bullied, not only because it is morally right, but it prevents that bully from gaining strength in numbers.

I can understand wanting to keep our enemies at manageable levels, but what constitutes "manageable" is obviously going to be up for debate. Most middle eastern countries pose very little military threat to the US. Economically they can do a lot more to hurt us, but again I would ask if that is our fault for making ourselves so dependent on oil from the middle east?

For look at a piece of the dynamics that go on in the world, consider that Iraq started trading oil in the Euro before we invaded. The U.S. dollar is the world reserve currency and oil is traded almost exclusively in dollars, this keeps demand for, and the value of the dollar artificially high. Oil is no longer traded in the Euro in Iraq, but in dollars. Also consider the current buzz over Iran's alleged nuclear program (very similar to Iraq and WMD), coupled with the fact the they plan to open an oil market in March 2006 that will trade in the Euro only. I can't imagine that we will let this oil market go forward, as it will be a major blow to our economy, but most people would never accept this as a reason to invade another country partly because we tend to believe that our economy is invincible.

I apologize if any of my comments make me seem insensitive to those who lost loved ones on 9/11 or those who have lost loved ones to military service, I assure you that this is not the case. However, it would truly be a tragedy if our military is put in harms way, because we have not created a long term economic policy that is more resistant to the effects of other countries decisions.

[Steve Frazier]

Most middle eastern countries pose very little military threat to the US.
Correct. We are at war not with a country, but a faction within the country at this time. Sadaam was our enemy, not the people of Iraq. Once Sadaam was removed from power, we began humanitarian aid to the Iraqis. Most of the people we are fighting now are not even Iraqis, they are religious fanatics from neighboring countries.

I witnessed the hatred these extremists harbor first hand. I was on a job with a group of carpenters from Jordan. I take interest in different cultures and sat with them at lunch asking about their country and its practices. I learned about a religious event they called "Eve" where they fasted all day and had a feast at night. All but one were very friendly, but this one was quiet and always had a scowl on his face.

One day he started ranting about infidels and how it was Allah's wish that the earth be cleansed of them, infidels were as disgusting as swine to him. The hair on my neck stood up when this happened and I never turned my back on him again during that job, I thought he was nuts! His brother even told him to shut up at one point, I think he could tell I was becoming uncomfortable. I did nothing to antagonize this, is was spontaneous and was directed at anyone not Muslim, not just Americans.

I don't buy in to the opinion that we brought this attack on ourselves. These extremists see the Western world as a threat to their beliefs, that people are not entitled to freedom as we believe. Their attack on the World Trade Center was intended to be a statement against capitalism, and they killed over 2500 innocent people in the process. Yes, they also attacked the Pentagon which would make sense if they intended to attack the American Government, but none of those people in NY had anything to do with government. That was a statement against the Western World.

[Cat420]

Extremists of any religion pose a threat to us. Then my question would be, why are we not invading all countries that offer any support to religious extremists? The majority of most countries couldn't care less about what we do, so long as it doesn't affect them. Do those people deserve to suffer as we try to remove extremists? If the extremist's perception is that we are "infidels" occupying their holy land, then doesn't it make sense that sending more troops and building more bases can only make the situation worse? Unless you can take out every single person that poses a threat, I fail to see how "invading and fighting against someone, who is fighting you to remove you from their land" can ever be successful. If you use enough force to accomplish your goals, you may easily push moderate people over the edge to extremism. I certainly wouldn't say that the attacks were 100% our fault, but have we made it easier for terrorist to recruit people to there cause? Probably a little, after all it is a very serious decision to give up your life for a cause.

[Steve Frazier]

Cat420, I'm curious of your thoughts on what a solution to preventing terrorist attacks such as the WTC might be?

[Cat420]

At this point in history, I really don't have a good answer to solve the root of the problem. Like I have mentioned, we have been very active in the affairs of middle eastern countries, but mostly for our benefit. A great deal of that benefit has been economic, not just for military protection. I don't know what we could ever do to change our ways that would ever convince them to trust us. After all if someone decided to attempt "regime change" in the US for their own benefit, we would fight them with any means possible. We would probably even praise our patriots that died fighting the infidels.

There were many practical things that could have prevented 9/11. It was a matter of enforcing current regulations. Communication was terrible between the FBI, CIA, and other groups. Only one of the hijackers was even delayed at the airports and all got weapons on board. People in flight schools, who only care how to steer and not land or take off, isn't a little suspicious? Many little things would have prevented the events of that day from taking place, but I don't know what the answer is to fix the main problem.

[Sparffo]

Today a saw the documentary movie called Loose change, it covers all the strange things about this case, i really think that everybody should see this movie!
after seeing it, you really think about this in a different way!

I really think that 9/11 was a way to start a war against the middle east, and try to save a bad economy.
and at the same time they got rid of buildings that was extremly filled with asbestos, that would cost millions of dollars to do the leagal way.

R.I.P all the people that got killed at 9/11 and all the people that die every year after, because of the asbestos dust.

[LowBoy]

Today a saw the documentary movie called Loose change, it covers all the strange things about this case, i really think that everybody should see this movie!
after seeing it, you really think about this in a different way!

I really think that 9/11 was a way to start a war against the middle east, and try to save a bad economy.
and at the same time they got rid of buildings that was extremly filled with asbestos, that would cost millions of dollars to do the leagal way.

R.I.P all the people that got killed at 9/11 and all the people that die every year after, because of the asbestos dust.



Who's the producer of this, Michael Moore?:guns

[CM1995]

Today a saw the documentary movie called Loose change, it covers all the strange things about this case, i really think that everybody should see this movie!
after seeing it, you really think about this in a different way!

From Wikipedia:

Loose Change originated as a plan for a fictional film, on the advice that to make a successful film a filmaker must offer the audience something they want to watch, and as the concept advanced through research into footage and resources for the film, the film became a documentary.:rolleyes:

Full link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loose_Change_(video)

Elvis is also alive and well living in a trailer in Tupelo.:cool:

[90plow]

how would destroying some of the biggest companies in the us help the economy? as far as asbestos why would they choose crashing planes and putting it all in the air as a way to get rid of it?? To all the conspiracy people one question, if this is a conspiracy how did they get everyone including people in the airline industry, government officials, firemen, police, civilians, and anyone else in contact with this situation to remain quiet for 5 minutes let alone 7 years. I strongly disagree with your views and I think it would be obvious by now if the government put these buildings down.

[Steve Frazier]

This thread was originally intended to be a memoriam to those lost on that terrible day, sadly it has taken a political turn. Sparffo, your comments are so ridiculous they don't warrant a response.

Thread closed.