Steep slopes, what's your experience?

[pete40]

I have 150 acres of mainly steep forested country in Qld, Australia near Dayboro. At present the only tracks down the steep slopes have been made many years ago by dozers to get the timber logs out after tree felling. This activity stopped years ago and the forest growth is thick again.

I want a small machine that will get me access down these slopes so that I can make a series of walking and small bike tracks, so that I can then manage this forest resource properly.

I don't want to push big trees, maybe just saplings. I feel a dozer would be too big and cause too much collateral damage.

I have been looking at small track loaders as an alternative, but all the brochures and literature only show them in flat terrain, backyard landscape type scenarios. This is NOT my application.

A wheeled vehicle is definitely NOT an option as traction and stability would not allow me to do side-cuts on the slopes.

How much traction do the rubber tracks have? Obviously not as much as steel.

How much dirt can you push with one? I mean "ground" dirt, not a load of dumped soil.

How stable are these things in a precarious slope situation?

I feel one with suspension would be best. The mini-excavator type ones would not suit.

Anybody with any stories or actual experience in this type of terrain I would like to hear from.

[Jake]

Try a John deere 35D on rubber. That's what we have at work. They hold the hills fairly well. Get one with an angle backfill blade so you can use it as a dozer as well.

[pete40]

Try a John deere 35D on rubber. That's what we have at work. They hold the hills fairly well. Get one with an angle backfill blade so you can use it as a dozer as well.

Isn't that an an excavator? - probably wouldn't suit my application.

[Tri-Star]

My experience with real steep stuff and my Bobcat T300 is ok at best. It performs very well on steep slopes, but that is pure dirt also, no vegitation, rock, etc. I would say that I am very experienced on this machine, I have been running it for over 4 years and what you are wanting is probably possible but if you are not familiar with the machine you could easily get in a bind or worse endanger your self and your life. Where as pioneering trails on really steep ground I would prefer a mini excavator because you can use the blade to keep yourself fairly level, with a thumb on it you can sort through vegitation and debris, and dig on the high side and fill the low side, and do some grading with the blade. I once was in this same situation, needed to put some silt fence up at the bottom of a really steep ridge and it was too much for the T300 so I rented a mini ex and cut a trail across the bottom and then used a small trencher for the silt fence. Hope this helps if you have any more questions fell free to ask.
Brian

[pete40]

Thanks Tristar,

I am fully aware of the roll-over dangers of the operation I am trying to achieve - it may not be possible. Care will be taken no matter what. You are the second to suggest using an excavator. I feel it wouldn't suit as I am trail-blazing to most degrees and excavators work best (and brilliantly) when they have some semblance of a track to start with that is usually blazed by a dozer.

I hope to get some more replies and other guys experience.

We just don't have the choice of equipment here in Australia that you guys do over there. I luckily have worked in alot of places in the world and seen alot of ideas, but I just can't pinpoint the best solution for my application yet.

I guess what I really need to know is can you use a compact track loader like a small dozer - and which one is the MOST stable on hillsides.

[hackalot]

Thanks Tristar,

I am fully aware of the roll-over dangers of the operation I am trying to achieve - it may not be possible. Care will be taken no matter what. You are the second to suggest using an excavator. I feel it wouldn't suit as I am trail-blazing to most degrees and excavators work best (and brilliantly) when they have some semblance of a track to start with that is usually blazed by a dozer.

I hope to get some more replies and other guys experience.

We just don't have the choice of equipment here in Australia that you guys do over there. I luckily have worked in alot of places in the world and seen alot of ideas, but I just can't pinpoint the best solution for my application yet.

I guess what I really need to know is can you use a compact track loader like a small dozer - and which one is the MOST stable on hillsides.

I'm doing some similar type work for myself. I have finished a base trail using a mini ex and now have to do the steep slope trails. I haven't made a final decision on which equipment to use, but my research so far has pointed me to an ASV 50 or 60. I think next month I will rent one for a day to see just what type of slope it can handle.

I,m sure there are other members on this site who have used the ASV in slope situations. One of the press releases on their website talks about a contractor using one in Colorado Springs, Coloarado doing golf cart paths. I would think the slopes encountered there would be pretty severe.

I'll post my experience after I try one of these ASV machines.

[pete40]

.....

I'll post my experience after I try one of these ASV machines.

Excellent stuff - I am looking forward to it.

[bobcatmechanic]

i dont know if anyone rents them over there but if your buying the bobcat t320's have a suspension under carriage on them as an option and they have a forestry cutter for them if you want to pretty much chip up the trees and saplings if you are making trails they will do a 12 in tree intermittently so they are rated

[bobcatmechanic]

that or raco makes a tree chipper machine that looks like a dozer that is designed just for clearing trees don't know how stable they are on slops

[Bob Horrell]

I have cut trails on steep slopes with both Bobcat and ASV track machines. There is no way you could operate a golf cart on the trails I cut. There are advantages and disadvantages to each, but both worked well. I have also cut steep trails with a skiploader, working from the top down, backing and using the back of the box scraper as a dozer blade.
A lot depends upon the type of soil and the moisture content. You would be amazed at the steep slopes you can work on if the soil is tacky. Dry, loose soil really limits what can be done regardless of the machine.

[JDOFMEMI]

I will throw in for the excavator as well. My first choice would be a dozer, but you are concerned about "collateral damage". A MTL will tear up as much as a small dozer would, and it is harder to bench into a hillside.

The excavator, and I am sugesting about a 3.5 ton to 4 ton machine, with a blade, can selectivly excavate into the high side, and cast the spoils onto the low side. A pass with the blade will make a nic path out of it.
I did read right that you are looking for walking sized paths, not for vehicles?

The advantage of the excavator is you can self level with the blade to cut into steep hills, you can dig up rocks, stumps, and other obstacles that would be harder with a MTL. In easy ground, the MTL would work faster than the excavator, but it sounds like your concern is for the steep areas, and the ability of the excavator to place material exactly where it is needed to level things out is what makes it shine.
Add a thumb to it, and you can move trees, branches, rocks, and all kinds of other things around.

I built a road a couple of years back, on a larger scale, up the side of a very steep mountain. Over a 900 ft drop at an average slope in excess of 100%, or steeper than 45%. When I could not make any headway with the D-8R I was operating, I brought up the 330CL excavator to dig my way through the places that the dozer would not touch.
The same holds true on a smaller scale.

Just my 2 cents worth.

PS, I wrote this before Bob's post, and he has a very good point about the soil type and moisture.
Nice damp tacky groung and the MTL will shine. I still think the trackhoe is more versatile though, for what you described.

[pete40]

I have cut trails on steep slopes with both Bobcat and ASV track machines. There is no way you could operate a golf cart on the trails I cut. There are advantages and disadvantages to each, but both worked well. I have also cut steep trails with a skiploader, working from the top down, backing and using the back of the box scraper as a dozer blade.
A lot depends upon the type of soil and the moisture content. You would be amazed at the steep slopes you can work on if the soil is tacky. Dry, loose soil really limits what can be done regardless of the machine.

I like the sound of that.

But what is a "skiploader" - just not up with your terminology. Show me one please.

I will have to just try to hire both an MTL and a track excavator to compare.

I have just had a contractor on the property making large scale road for vehicles using a D7 and a large excavator. That worked well for what was required. Now I want to get alot of small walking-width, or quad(ATV)-width tracks, at most, to access the rest of the property which is heavily forested and steep slopes.

[pete40]

Just realised a "skiploader" is just a "front-end loader/back-hoe" device.

[humboldt deere]

I also think a mini ex would be a better choice. You can cut the roads in and blade them smooth. When you are done you can put the drainage in with the same machine. On steep trails their will no doubt be some culverts to install and some ditching on the uphill side.

[pete40]

I also think a mini ex would be a better choice. You can cut the roads in and blade them smooth. When you are done you can put the drainage in with the same machine. On steep trails their will no doubt be some culverts to install and some ditching on the uphill side.

Wont get that technical on these trails I don't think, but may. Am only planning walking-width to ATV-width.

[SouthOnBeach]

I put another in vote for a mini-ex for steep trail cutting. If you're in hard ground I think you're going to find the mini-ex faster then a MTL.

[stumpjumper83]

minni ex.... and yes you will need uphill drainage. You should have the path leening into the hill a little bit so if your traveling on it and you loose traction, you go into the bank tather than over the bank. Now you path's contour is going to work like a diversion ditch for the water comming down off the slope, and unless you want that to erode your work, your going to need to catch it and send it off the downhill side of the path. You can do that with pipe and ditches, or you can use a small swale cut diagonal to the path to send the water over. If use the latter, you should seed it, and stay off it when its wet, and you may have to do maintence periodically on it. Using pipe cost more up front, but is less of a hassle.

[LowBoy]

My vote's for the mini-ex as well. A Cat 307, or comparable with a blade. The versatility is uncompromized with an excavator in terms of performing what you have described. Your spoils can be casted from the high side of slope to the lower to build the bench, as well as stumping, grubbing, etc. Plus the benefit of the grading blade gives you the "2 machines for the price of 1" concept.

[pete40]

OK - the opinion is definitely going the way of the mini-ex. But I repeat my scepticism of the instability on the initial uncut, virgin, steep slope. Is this not a factor? I will be popping off a ridge-line, trying to cut a side-track down a VERY steep slope. remember, these are not for vehicles, just walking, quads, bicycles, motorbikes.

[JDOFMEMI]

Pete
Remember this. When you drop over the side on a dozer or MTL, you have only the traction and stability of the machines tracks to stay on top. With the mini ex, you still have the tracks, but if you slip a little, you can use the boom to push yourself back. Also, as we have said, you can cut a bench into the hill BEFORE your tracks get to the location. One of the main reasons of using the excavator in these coditions is the ability to make sure the ground is stable before you get on it, and it is easier to dig into the hard bank while sitting in a stable location, and then push forward after the hill has a nice bench cut in.

Keep in mind, I have built many miles of steeeep roads with a dozer, but to do the small work you speak of, I would take the mini any day. I have put my 303CR Cat mini down some very steep banks, and always have the confidence of the boom to push where I need to go, as well as the blade to help hold me level while I work with the boom.

[pete40]

Now that you put it in those words jerry I can see reason. I am going to probably try one of each on hire for a while before I buy. It'll be the only way to truly decide. But I know now that I'll probably end up wanting one of each!

[therealjohnboy]

Buy a small dozer thats what i use for pioneering work i have an older machine a John Deere 350c pat blade cuts about a 6' pass(perfect for ATV)very stable machine simple to work on. Pick one up for about $20K i also have a CTL with a 6way blade aswell great for regradeing trail terraces but just will never have the pushing power of a dozer. in short there is not one machine that will fit your purpose another option would be a small drott like a 931 or 933 will push a trail and can dig and carry not as fast as a dozer for cutting across a slope but will do the job once you hone you skills great for pushing heaps and building bike jumps, clearing scrubis a breeze with a 4 in 1

[pete40]

What pros and cons can you give for a 6-way blade as opposed to a bucket on the same type of tilting pivot on a CTL? A 4 in 1 bucket is obviously very handy and if you can also have it tilting for side-cuts as well, that could be ideal - couldn't it? What are the drawbacks?

[therealjohnboy]

itll do the job but a CTL just cant get the traction required due to its low ground pressure slow itll be slower and more wear and tear on the running gear i use my CTL for this application to save having to cart in both machines it also depends on soil type, amount of rock, tree roots, skill level, fear factor, budget in mind.
You could buy a good dozer and drott for the price of a CTL or a dozer and mini exc or SSL you need to way up what will be the bulk of the work. will you always have to maintain the steep terrain or only till your tracks are in if so buy a dozer to do the bulk work then sell it and buy a ssl/ctl and mini exc to do the on going maintainence i build alot of enduro/Motocross tracks in steep scrub land with the dozer and do the finish work and maintainence work with the ctl just my 2c worth

[pete40]

Know anybody in Qld who does similar work johnboy?

I like your idea there - buy a dozer (or hire someone to do the work) and then sell it and get a CTL for maintenance work. CTL's are bloody expensive though even second hand. I am a bit worried about on-going cost - I mean I will only use it occasionally but with a second-hand one, what are the main things to steer clear of when looking to buy? I don't want to buy one and then find out I have to spend 10k on something that is buggered on it. How many traps are there for the uninitiated?

[therealjohnboy]

i have owned ctls for about 3 years and would never go back to a ssl despite the added costs allow about $6-7K every 1500 hrs for maintainence (tracks sprockets, etc) a ssl will cost about half that amount in 1500 hrs but physio bills will make up the difference plus you'll never **** right again due to the poo compaction the ride gives you. also one week of work when a ssl is laided up due to weather more than pays the diff.
plus digging pass for pass a ctl will run rings around a ssl. a small dozer will cost about the $6K for chains and sprockets every 2000 hrs. I would go down the path of buying the small dozer rather than sub contract the work as you'll need to learn YOUR terrain if you intend on maintaining it. besides if your doing it for yourself you can take your time and do it the way you want not the most cost effective way. My only advice would be to take your time and learn the limits of the machine, my dozer has been on its roof twice in extreem terrain and it happens in a instant respect the conditions. Walk the site looking for blind cliffs, old mines, wells, dams etc i have found all of them and soiled many pairs of jocks. I'd come up from SA for a change of scenery if work wasnt so chaotic down here.

[therealjohnboy]

The dozers i would suggest for small work are
Kom. D20 D21 D30,
Mits. BD2,
JD 350c,
Cat D3,
all are small enough to do a neat job of small tracks and are cheap to run Ive owned a
D20 great for tight work still have the JD as it has 3pl too and just sold my 931c to a fella in Armidale D3 size drott same as D3 dozer Great power in a small package

[pete40]

Appreciate your input and advice. What does "3pl" refer to - excuse my ignorance.

[therealjohnboy]

3 point linkage so you can hook up implements and use the PTO to run slashers post borers etc

[pete40]

On the small dozer front - you got any knowledge of those "Eastwind" dozers - chinese small dozer about same size as a D20. A guy on the Sunshine Coast sells them, but I haven't spoken to anyone with one for a true opinion. Brand new about $30k.

[therealjohnboy]

i heard that they do the job but more suited to a hobby farmer id spend 30k on a second hand cat/JD/Kom before i looked down that path but they do fit the size requirement same as kom d20 both about 40hp 3.5/4 ton JD 350c is about 55hp 5 ton D3 cat is about 75hp 7.5 ton its not all about hp you need the weight to get the traction too

[pete40]

I would love to do as you suggest and get a small dozer. But I will eventually have a bitumen road to negotiate as well and there isn't much room either side of that to run a steel track vehicle, so a rubber track is going to be ideal. I may end up doing what you said and get a steelie, learn how to do it and get most tracks cut in, then sell it and buy a rubber track.

Are there any pros and cons for any particular brand of track loader to go for or steer clear of? If I just go ahead and get a track loader from the start, it's just going to take me longer to get my tracks in.

[therealjohnboy]

For hard digging i would buy a CTL not an MTL.
MTL's are better suited to low impact work.
Bobcat machines work hard,compact nimble and are common but hard on the operator and heavy on fuel
Takeuchi machines are awesome, good on fuel, dig like nothing else, a little better than B/C as far as ride noise etc. But they are big tall and tough.
New Holland are in the middle. Great ride, nice cab comfort, economical good digging power a great all rounder.
Case are a case machine do the job but are dated and expensive but reliable
If i was looking around id be looking for a low hr machine at a good deal nows the time.

there are other machines but they are an unknown ie KOM, JCB, JD, Couger just buy the biggest you can afford cos you'll get more done in a shorter time

Just my 2c worth should be some other opinions out there

[pete40]

The only machine I have actually tried at my place was an ASV Posi-track (RC-60) with a 4-in-1 bucket. Seemed like it would do the job. Bloody things hold their price second hand. Where does this brand rate amongst the ones you mentioned? The guy who sells them up here was great - he brought one out for a demo for me.

[therealjohnboy]

ive used them but not owned one they are the MTL style i mentioned working them hard seems to kill the under carriage quick and its a fortune to replace plus the digger power didnt compare to what im used to they seemed to give up when pushed hard
Try a few of the brands i suggested just to give yourself something to rate against.
Its alot of cash so you wanna get it right

[therealjohnboy]

all the dealers should bring you a machine out if they are serious about selling it to you.
you need to trial them in the conditions you'll use it maybe even hire a few to get a good idea

[pete40]

So what is CTL and MTL? I thought CTL was "Compact Track Loader" and MTL was "Mini Track loader" . Is that right? I must seem pretty base on knowledge, but everyone's gotta start somewhere!

The ASV- 60 wasn't too mini (if that's what it means) and they go up to a 100, which is quite powerful)

[Foster]

How about a machine built for steep impassable terrain?

[pete40]

Beejeezus!

Looks impressive - how does it get onto the slope in the first place???

Also, looks like the slope has been chain-pulled first too. That thing wouldn't get in between the trees too easily - would it?

[Foster]

You use your boom and stick to push or pull your self around. The wheels you see have power to them, there is also a set of wheels that mount on the front legs so you can drive on flat ground. Very easy to get between trees, can be only 6' wide and move sideways if you need to. Chain pulled ?

[pete40]

Thanks for the explanation.

Chain pulled - pulling a chain between two dozers to clear everything in between.

So what's that thing called anyway?

[Foster]

No dozers did any work on second pic.
they are called Walking excavators or Spyder hoes made by Menzi Muck or Kaiser as well as a few others. Do a search on youtube for "Menzi Muck" they have some good vids as well as a search on this site for other posts on these machines.

A couple more pics later on in the project.

[BrianHay]

looking good Foster. Are you all finished that project now?

[Foster]

Glad you chimed in Brian, for the most part its done still have trees and plants to plant in the spring and another small wall to build near the driveway. Digging a small pond for one of my neighbors out in the woods, will post some picts over on your site later on. You about ready to head for camp?

[Coastal]

In my opinion, being a rookie operator, wanting to cut trails in steep terrain is trouble brewing. Especially with a dozer or CTL. One wrong move and one track crumbles the shoulder of your new trail and slips off, basically your screwed. You better hope you have good friends with a machine to come pull you out.

Mini ex's are a bit more forgiving, if you do slip off the trail, you can at least wiggle your way around with the bucket and boom and get back on track. I would look for a mini ex that has the longest tracks for stability, and perhaps get proper cab protection built for it, so when you do roll it, you will survive if wearing a seatbelt.

I live in BC Canada, we have our share of steep slopes, those silly rocky mountains make work challenging. :beatsme

[pete40]

In my opinion, being a rookie operator, wanting to cut trails in steep terrain is trouble brewing. .... :beatsme

I'm hearing ya mate. I will not just head straight down the nearest big slope don't worry. I will be walking most of it beforehand to be sure exactly where I want to go and flagging it (I am a land surveyor). And I intend to get plenty of practice on the flat before I even attempt to take one down some of my hills.

[therealjohnboy]

MTL is Multi Terrain Loader Cat and Positrack have that style of track system very capabloe low impact design with great floatation ctl style would better suit what you have described

[pete40]

So the CTL basically has more pushing power, more traction available for my application? I was a bit worried about the available power on the Positrack. So what does CTL stand for?

[KSSS]

So the CTL basically has more pushing power, more traction available for my application? I was a bit worried about the available power on the Positrack. So what does CTL stand for?


CTL stands for Compact Track Loader.

It is not entirely true that a CTL has more push power than an MTL. The main difference is that the MTL is a suspended track system and the CTL is a nonsuspended machine. The suspension system on the MTL (CAT and ASV) makes for a quiet, soft riding machine. This machine uses rubber coated bogy wheels which are on a track that does not contain any steel imbedding. They also utilize a squirrel cage to drive the track. There are torsion bars in the system which give the system flex. Kept in their element, they provide excellent traction due to the suspensions ability to adjust to the terrain. However the downfalls to this suspension is it does not tolerate abrasive environments very well, as well as operator abuse. The suspension components are expensive-lot of moving parts compared to a CTL. Kept in their element they work well, work them outside of their element and they are a money pit. Resale is terrible here. CAT recently introduced their CTL onto the market if that is an indication of some of the drawbacks of the MTL. The CTL with its solid frame is much more simple and robust, drawbacks are they are rough riding, noisy, with a fair amount of vibration thrown in. CTL's are also susceptible to operator abuse, but they are not as costly to go through. The CTL drives by use of a sprocket similiar to a high drive dozer.

Which machine is best depends on what you want to do with it. There are some great deals to be had on used machines. All of these tracked machines take a serious hit coming of the lot. A low houred machine that was not abused can save you big money over new. New tracked machines can be expensive to buy, own and resale is not great. I have calculated some depreciation rates of $25 to $30 an hour on some of these machines. You need to be sure that you can make them pay and don't abuse them because they will hit you back in the wallet.

[John H]

Have you tried looking at a Fecon FXT 100 or a rayco cl100

[JimInOz]

How did you go,Pete?
In Qld,you can buy a lot of small Mitsubishi dozers for under $20K.
Richie Bros sell them a few times each year in Brisbane.
They are low stable,strong,quite modern,fuel efficient...& can be manual or direct-powershift.Your ideal set-up would have PAT Blade & scarifier.Ensure the trans,brakes & clutches are in good order.A canopy would be a good idea too.
The single grouser dozer tracks would be a help,although lots of guys have used Crawler Loaders on steep country too.Either way,you'd really want to know the feel of your machine before going up there.
Keep your work area clean...running over holes,rocks & tree trunks is a killer on slopes.

A similar Mitsubishi,Komatsu or other Crawler Loader with 4 in 1 & ripper would also be OK.

Let us know what you buy.Good luck..

[pete40]

OK - update.

I have hired a small (1.5 tonne) mini-ex and been into it. It works. Slowly but surely. Still want to try a small dozer, but hard to get one on hire.

[pete40]

OK - update.

I have hired a small (1.5 tonne) mini-ex and been into it. It works. Slowly but surely. Still want to try a small dozer, but hard to get one on hire.I am learning all the time, taking it slow, benching tracks in so they slope towards the high side. It's a bit scary in the machine at first on any small slope, but slowly getting confidence.

The are supposed to be able to handle a 30 degree slope before tipping - does that mean side-slope?

Where is "Richie Brothers"?

[hackalot]

OK - update.

I have hired a small (1.5 tonne) mini-ex and been into it. It works. Slowly but surely. Still want to try a small dozer, but hard to get one on hire.I am learning all the time, taking it slow, benching tracks in so they slope towards the high side. It's a bit scary in the machine at first on any small slope, but slowly getting confidence.

The are supposed to be able to handle a 30 degree slope before tipping - does that mean side-slope?

Where is "Richie Brothers"?

http://www.rbauction.com/index.jsp

[pete40]

Thought I'd give some feedback as I got some good advice from members on this forum.

I ended up buying a CAT 305B second hand - good condition machine. I have done tracks now in steep country and am learning all the time. It takes time but you end up with a good track for sure. My only problem is I keep throwing the tracks off and I did break one. I am learning not to let anything at all get in between the drive sprocket and the track or the idler and the track as it can quite quickly spit it off (the track that is). I am pretty adept at getting the tracks back on by now but I wish I wouldn't throw them off so regularly. Anyone got any good advice in this respect?

[pete40]

Also, I had a guy come in with a Drott and establish a bunch of wider tracks for me still in the steep country doing alot of side-cutting obviously. I now need to maintain these tracks. There is always some landslides and logs and branches falling on them. I would like to get a suitable machine to keep them maintained. Ideally I think a small Drott would be good. The mini-ex I have is just too slow to get around - I have about 13km of tracks now to maintain but it could do it. I am thinking if I have a Drott of my own I can probably achieve more but it may be more cost effective to just have someone come in once a year and clean up for me.

Your thoughts appreciated.

[joispoi]

Do you have any pictures to share?:drinkup

As far as buying a machine to maintain the trails, the really depends on how much manual labor you want to do. An atv with a toolbox and a chainsaw would be a good asset. A small 4wd tractor with ROPS and a hammer knife mower or brush hog might be useful if there's alot of undergrowth on the trails.