Legal or not? [Archive] - Heavy Equipment Forums

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HeyUvaVT

07-02-2008, 04:02 PM

mikef87

07-02-2008, 04:10 PM

You want to pull 23,800 lbs with a F450? That's way overweight. I doubt you'd be able to stop. You need a small 6 wheeler like a F-750 or Pete 330. I wouldn't even chance it.

HeyUvaVT

07-02-2008, 04:46 PM

The truck is rated from the factory to pull 24500 with a gooseneck trailer...we pull 20k lbs routinely with no problems at all...I just want to know if its legal or illegal to put 28500 lbs behind the truck common sense be darned...yes its dumb....yes its hard on the truck...no I don't condone it....but yes I have to move my equipment from the old shop to the new shop...5 miles down country roads...I just want to know if all I have to worry about is damage and danger...or will I get ticketed also...

digger242j

07-02-2008, 05:48 PM

What weight is the truck and tailer combination registered for? That'll tell you what you're legal to haul.

texascadillac42

07-02-2008, 07:27 PM

Yep, you have the right license, now its a question of plates on the truck and trailer. If the truck axles arent over weight, and the trailer axles arent overweight, then you should be fine. Especially for a 5 mile run down a country road. Id do it and not think twice. The F450 will handle the weight no problem, your trailer DOES have brakes right??? It should stop without a problem at those weights.

Dwan Hall

07-02-2008, 07:35 PM

If the truck is rated to tow 24500 from the factory and you tow 24501 lbs you can get cited. Been there done that. Here it is $0.05 a pound fine.

mikef87

07-02-2008, 08:11 PM

As usual I didn't read the post all the way through. If it's 5 miles do it on a Saturday or Sunday morning with no cops around. That's when I try and do all my early moves. Usually we'll hire a State Police detail. But if your just moving equipment from one shop to another, just do it early in the morning and drive slow.

texascadillac42

07-02-2008, 08:31 PM

If the truck is rated to tow 24500 from the factory and you tow 24501 lbs you can get cited. Been there done that. Here it is $0.05 a pound fine.

Things might be different in Alaska, but I believe that the rating of 24,500 that was stated is the GCWR found in the owners manual, and not on the door sticker. The door sticker will only have the GVWR, which is what most cops (at least all of the ones I have run into down here) look at. You have to add the GVWR of the trailer in tow to compute what he can legally haul. The GCWR from Ford is more of a limit based on a multitude of factors.

tonka

07-02-2008, 08:52 PM

Um that 5 miles would put more than your life at stake, do you really want to take that chance?

digger242j

07-02-2008, 09:12 PM

To clarify my point about registration--I once bought a used 3/4 ton pickup from a Ford dealer. The prior owner had it registered as a half ton. Gross weight of 7000 lbs. I was too young and stupid then to know the difference. It was barely legal even sitting empty at the curb, let alone with all the junk I always carried in it. Fortunately, I never got caught.

Is the truck/trailer combination in question here registered to be legal at that weight? If not, then the tags on the door don't make any difference. You could get a ticket.

7AXLES

07-02-2008, 10:52 PM

5 miles...I'd do it!!

woberlin

07-02-2008, 10:55 PM

Around here the DOT works pretty much bankers hours, I've never seen them set up on the weekend. While your probably legally overweight for the vehicle, take it easy and do it after hours or on a weekend and you should be fine.

Dwan Hall

07-02-2008, 10:55 PM

Things might be different in Alaska, but I believe that the rating of 24,500 that was stated is the GCWR found in the owners manual, and not on the door sticker. The door sticker will only have the GVWR, which is what most cops (at least all of the ones I have run into down here) look at. You have to add the GVWR of the trailer in tow to compute what he can legally haul. The GCWR from Ford is more of a limit based on a multitude of factors.

You are right a multitude of factors. Unless I am wrong the weakest link in that multitude of factors is what determans what the factory picks for there load rating. ie. size of brakes, load carrying capability of tires, horse power, cooling capacity, etc.
No mater what one licenses the truck for he/she can not go over that rating and still be legal. one can go less but not more.
If the factory said he could tow up to 24500 with the truck then I would be willing to bet after all the calculating was done he could not tow more then that, it may say less but not more.

next can you have the factory load rating made higher?

Yes it can be done but it is much cheaper just to buy a truck with a higher rating. let alone the red tape one would have to go through.

Like I said been there done that.

the original question asked if he could be cited? yes.
now could he do it and get away with it? yes
is it safe? depends on a lot of things.
I do it all the time.

CAT D9H

07-02-2008, 11:02 PM

You can get a ticket for being overweight , but that wouldnt stop me , go for the gold!!!:drinkup

Tri-Star

07-03-2008, 12:12 AM

I see people pulling Cat 420 backhoes behind 350s 450s and so on all the time and am pretty sure they are around the 23,000 mark so I dont really see a big problem

xalexjx

07-03-2008, 05:36 AM

just drive the machine if its only 5 miles. Its not worth having some dumb ass or someone pull out in front of you and having someone get killed, because if that happens it'll be your a$$ ;)

Grader4me

07-03-2008, 06:55 AM

Quick question..in Virginia...I have an 08 F450 with the 4.88 rear end..rated from factory for 24500lbs towing with a gooseneck trailer...I want to pull a 23500 lbs machine on a 5000 lbs gooseneck trailer for total of 28500 lbs ... I have a class A CDL...BUUUUT will this be illegal or "over weight" ( I know its over weight common sense wise but its a one time move of only 5 miles and I just don't want to get smoked by DOT)

Thanks

We all take chances in life as that's a given. If you want to take a chance and haul something that you obviously know is overweight and illegal then that is your choice. Keep this in mind though...if during that 5 mile haul something terrible was to happen how are you going to feel? Better yet how would the members that are encouraging you do do this feel? I know I'm being a stick in the mud, but you really should think about this more. Also the members that are saying go for it should think about it more...

I don't think anyone of us here should knowingly promote an unsafe/illegal act. Just my opinion guys for what it's worth..

Tri-Star

07-03-2008, 09:36 AM

bigblueox

07-03-2008, 11:34 AM

http://www.dmvnow.com/webdoc/pdf/dmv109.pdf . check this out, see if anyone can interpert!

Dwan Hall

07-03-2008, 02:06 PM

Thanks grader4me for making me rethink what I said.

Don't do it.

texascadillac42

07-03-2008, 03:28 PM

Ok Here is my ? Around here a the most a Tri-Axle dump truck can be tagged for is 74000lbs but yet I see them hauling D6R's and 963's all the time on tri-axle trailers. I know for a fact they are over 74000. So can someone tell me how they can haul more than what the truck is tagged or rated for????????

Because the trailer they are hauling the machine on is rated to carry the weight of the D6R or 963. Its pretty simple to figure out, add up what the truck GVWR is plus the GVWR of the trailer. Weigh the truck and trailer empty. Subtract the unloaded weight from the sum of the 2 GVWRs and you have the payload capacity (assuming the load doesnt cause the GVWR of the truck OR trailer to be exceeded).

To relate it back to the original posters question: What kind of trailer do you have that will haul a 23,500 lbs machine, yet only weighs 5,000 lbs? My gooseneck rated at 25,900 lbs, weighs 7,000 lbs. If you can give us the GVWR of the truck (as listed on the door sticker) and the GVWR of the trailer, we can figure out its payload capacity. DOT officers DO NOT go off of a Ford GCWR for towing.

Orchard Ex

07-03-2008, 04:21 PM

Its pretty simple to figure out, add up what the truck GVWR is plus the GVWR of the trailer.

That isn't how I understand it (at least where I live). If you are pulling with a class (dumptruck) and pulling a "freight trailer" (=over 20,000 lbs) then the truck must be registered for the GCW of the truck and trailer. The tags for our freight trailers are like $35 a year because the weight is paid for by the truck tags. Also, since I'm limited to a max registration of 40,000 lbs for my single axle dump, I can't hook up to a 40 ton tag and tow 40 tons.

texascadillac42

07-03-2008, 04:30 PM

Yea, it gets tricky when going from state to state. In IL for example, my truck is tagged for 12k, and the trailer is tagged for up to 32k Thats a total of 44k. The manufacturers GVWR of the truck is 11,200. And the trailer is 25,900. So that is a total of 37,100 lbs, and that is the number I have to follow to stay legal. The truck weighs 8200lbs empty, and the trailer is 7,000 lbs empty. So with a combined empty weight of 15,200, and 37,100 lbs allowable, my payload capacity is 21,900 lbs, assuming I dont go over any of the axle weights. It gets confusing when discussing these types of things on a state basis, when the audience is nationwide.

HeyUvaVT

07-03-2008, 05:18 PM

**Update**

OK so I was WAY off on the trailer specs..trailer is a Econoline Super Max 34500 GVWR Truck GVWR is 14500
so does this mean 49000 combined? That seems crazy even to me.....:beatsme I am totally :confused::confused: now :Banghead

digger242j

07-03-2008, 06:31 PM

...so does this mean 49000 combined?

No. It's a combination vehicle; a truck and trailer. The truck is the power unit, and the trailer is... the trailer. Elsewhere on the internet, I've read that the (highest rated) 450 is good for a GCWR of 33,000. If it's rated, and registered, for that, subtract the weight of the truck, and the trailer, from 33,000, and that's the payload you're legal to haul.

Or, to go at it backwards, if your load is 23,500;

33,000 - 23,500 = 8,500

If your truck and trailer together weigh more than that empty, (and they sure do), you're illegal.

:beatsme

Tri-Star

07-03-2008, 06:40 PM

HeyUvaVT
The math sounds OK, Just seems you have more trailer than truck in this case. A 15-17 ton trailer is a LOT for a pickup! I would think 30-35,000 GVW truck, trailer, and load is about the limit for a light/medium duty truck. I have grossed some where in the ballpark of 30,000 with a F350 and gooseneck and wouldnt push much more than that! Just my .02

texascadillac42

07-03-2008, 07:10 PM

Sounds like too much trailer to me for the pickup. Agreed on the 30-35k limit for truck, trailer and load on a one ton DRW pickup.

RollOver Pete

07-04-2008, 03:13 AM

You can pull all the weight you want as long as you stay within 3 guidelines.

#1. You are registered to operate within the weight you are carrying.
That means if you are commercially registered for a GCVW of 12000 lbs, anything more than that will cost you If you get caught.
People that have their act together will have a weight sticker on the side of their truck.
If I had my act together, there would be a 45 sticker on the side of my truck.
But I don't have my act together and I do have a problem with driving through commercial truck scales.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fy-1APuqzhM

#2. Tire ratings..
Regardless of what my door sticker or owners book says, your tire ratings are what matters.
Tire ratings are what the man will look at when he's got you pulled over and you're sweating bullets since you didnt take the time to do your homework.
On my Dodge, my GVWR is 17,000 lbs. if you go by what my tires are rated for.
I'll probably never load my truck that heavy but as far as the law goes, I'm good for 17,000 as long as my fees are paid for 17,000 lbs. and I have not exceeded the tire's ratings.
If I hook up to a 3 ax gn with 3 10,000lb axles, then load it up to its max ratings, I'm up over 40,000 lbs and legal as long as I'm not over on any axle, within my tire ratings and have paid my fees.
If you look at your tire ratings and do the math, it's easy to figure out.
But what about what's on the door sticker?
Nothing adds up :confused:
The sticker says I can't haul that much. What the......:beatsme
Truck makers put those puny numbers on the stickers to protect their rear.
There's enough weekend truck drivers behind the wheel not knowing $0.05 about what they are doing that truck makers need to de-rate what goes on the door sticker.

#3. Stay within axle weight ratings.
12,500 for steering, 18,000 for any dual wheeled axle or 9,500 lbs for any single wheel (steering being an exception).
It's all in VC35551 for those who don't believe me.

The sad reality is that it's all about money.
Pay the fees, haul the weight.
Get caught without the right weight registration, get a ticket.
It's that simple.
IMHO, its not about safety, its about money.

If you wanna truck along with the big boys, remember your MCP,
log books, emergency reflectors, medical card, insurance bonds, and the list goes on and on.

Other than those few minor details, I say go for it.
I do it all the time.
Not that it's right, but I know my limits and my trucks limits better than anyone else.

Just be cautious, look far ahead and dont say that I didnt warn ya :drinkup
:cool:

HeyUvaVT

07-04-2008, 07:38 AM

pete...i was hoping you would chime in here..you seem to be pretty up to date on the info....i will check into this with our DOT after the holiday

jughead

07-04-2008, 08:32 AM

hauled my 655 ford hoe 75 miles from Georgia to Tenn. a few years back with a 2000 ford dually looked at the weight of the gooseneck trailer read it wrong. truck tagged 26k got home ok but 6k over weight and 6 inches over height. truck handled ok but had a lot more weight than it wanted. 3 axle trailer. brakes on all axles. guess i was just lucky. wont do it again

digger242j

07-04-2008, 08:33 AM

#1. You are registered to operate within the weight you are carrying.

So, (and this should be an easy question), what is your truck registered for?

knucklehead98

07-04-2008, 09:46 AM

5 miles, in the time we spent on this thread, it could have been there and unloaded by now

Tri-Star

07-04-2008, 11:32 AM

If you dont mind me asking, Just what is it that you want to haul?

RollOver Pete

07-04-2008, 03:26 PM

So, (and this should be an easy question), what is your truck registered for?

Without going outside and looking,
my truck is registered just how any other John Does truck would be registered.
Where I might still get by is that I'm sneaky and I still appear to be private as anyone with a toy hauler, rv, or boat would be.
Plus, I dont pull a goose neck yet.

I know I've been running the risk of getting caught and realize that sooner or later I will get caught.
Hopefully I'll convince the owner of the company I work for that he's the one who will pay for my registration.
Not me.
They already maintain my truck, fuel, tires and any and all expenses so paying for my weight registration is just another expense that will need to take care of.
It just takes a little time.
People have gotten away without paying for weight fees for a long time.
But times are changing.
Being the tight wad that I am,
I'm not about to dish out the additional $1028.00 a year in registration fees.
I'll let the boss worry about that.
He's been looking at 25K trailers and with the way work is going,
its just a matter of time.
Since we've got some work in AZ,
crossing a state line means I'll need to be legal.
Until then, I'll just avoid crossing any scales.

This is one of the forms that shows a breakdown of weight fees.
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/forms/reg/reg4008.pdf
:cool:

digger242j

07-04-2008, 04:17 PM

I didn't mean you, Pete. You have it figured out, and know what the risks and rewards are. I meant HeyUvaVT, who's the one that's worried about getting caught.

RollOver Pete

07-04-2008, 05:32 PM

Oh :beatsme
My bad :D

:cool:

HeyUvaVT

07-05-2008, 08:55 AM

ours is registered at the 14500 that it came from the dealer with...if i change it how high can i register it at? the the tires are rated at 3970 each for a total of 23820 :Banghead its looking like way less hassle to just get a bigger truck especially since i found out today we may be moving it more often

it is a gyrotrac gt25

CM1995

07-05-2008, 01:00 PM

it is a gyrotrac gt25

How do you normally move it from job to job?

Ron Light

07-05-2008, 11:53 PM

Without going outside and looking,
my truck is registered just how any other John Does truck would be registered.
Where I might still get by is that I'm sneaky and I still appear to be private as anyone with a toy hauler, rv, or boat would be.
Plus, I dont pull a goose neck yet.

I know I've been running the risk of getting caught and realize that sooner or later I will get caught.
Hopefully I'll convince the owner of the company I work for that he's the one who will pay for my registration.
Not me.
They already maintain my truck, fuel, tires and any and all expenses so paying for my weight registration is just another expense that will need to take care of.
It just takes a little time.
People have gotten away without paying for weight fees for a long time.
But times are changing.
Being the tight wad that I am,
I'm not about to dish out the additional $1028.00 a year in registration fees.
I'll let the boss worry about that.
He's been looking at 25K trailers and with the way work is going,
its just a matter of time.
Since we've got some work in AZ,
crossing a state line means I'll need to be legal.
Until then, I'll just avoid crossing any scales.

This is one of the forms that shows a breakdown of weight fees.
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/forms/reg/reg4008.pdf
:cool:

Best I understand the law, the driver of any rig is responsible to know that it is legal before operating it on public, state, or federal right of ways.:usa

RollOver Pete

07-06-2008, 01:15 AM

Best I understand the law
:notworthy
:cool:

PSDF350

07-06-2008, 06:28 AM

Love that warning lable Pete.

Ron Light

07-06-2008, 11:53 AM

Love that warning lable Pete.

I understand the sign, just not sure what's the intent of the post:beatsme:drinkup:D

JDOFMEMI

07-06-2008, 07:56 PM

I understand the sign, just not sure what's the intent of the post:beatsme:drinkup:D

To understand the intent of the post, it would be easier if you have followed the last year or 2 of Petes posts. He has his act together, but has been known to push up close to the limit from time to time.

Pete.
I love the warning label. I may have to copy it to some friends, with credit to you.

RollOver Pete

07-06-2008, 08:41 PM

qball

07-06-2008, 10:54 PM

pete, you sem like a great guy to grab a beer and b.s. with.
glad i don't work for you, though.:)

Ron Light

07-07-2008, 12:05 AM

Here's where I got the warning label.

www.warninglabelgenerator.com

And to Ron and everyone else around here who can actually stomach my posts...
I do apologize.
While my sense of humor might be a few 10ths below sub grade,
I really do have good intentions.
If for some strange reason I were to unleash my better side on someone,
it would be very clear to everyone. :ban
But thats something that we wont have to worry about.
Not around here...and especially not here on HEF.
This is too fine of a site and I have the utmost respect for those who operate , as well as those who take the time to post in here.

I know that often come across as someone who obviously his head deeply embedded in a place just south of his belt line....
I've suffered from this disorder for most of my adult life :(
Myself as well as many others are still looking for a cure.
:cool:

As you may have noticed with the big grin and drinkup sign, it was taken in good humor.
Being as I'm a card carrying ADD guy, I certainly understand that one of the many tale-tale signs is to let go of whats on ones mind and never realize how it sounds on the other side of the eyes.;).

Two of my biggest rules are, no obvious overloads, and never embarrass yourself having to pick your load up from off the road.:eek:

Ron

RollOver Pete

07-07-2008, 12:19 AM

Thanks qball :drinkup

I'm glad I don't work for me either.
Since it's my way or the highway,
I'd be down the road so darned fast that my head would spin.
:cool:

RollOver Pete

07-07-2008, 01:00 AM

and never embarrass yourself having to pick your load up from off the road.:eek:

Ron

And that was a morning I'll never forget :eek:
It only took me that one time to learn a valuable lesson.
When it comes down to securing a load, trust nobody other than yourself :professor

Since my little mishap,
I've become extremely anal when it comes down to securing a load.:exactly
Don't talk to me or offer to help when I'm chaining down.
And to those who think my method of securing any load that I'll be moving may be a little excessive,
Deal with it.
If you don't plan for every possible scenario,
If you skimp on chains and binders, just wait.
One day, you're time will come.
:cool:

OCR

07-07-2008, 02:42 AM

When it comes down to securing a load, trust nobody other than yourself

No question about it... absolutely.

offer to help when I'm chaining down.

No question about it... absolutely. Especially when they go on the other side
and start messing... you know you're going to have to check it any way...

I just say, "I've got my own system, I'll get it"...:avid
I know most just want to help, but it still irritates me.

While my sense of humor might be a few 10ths below sub grade

Seems real good to me...:beatsme

Oh, by the way... I need a job...:D

OCR...:)

sbrem

07-07-2008, 05:02 PM

No question about it... absolutely. Especially when they go on the other side
and start messing... you know you're going to have to check it any way...

Exactly. I'll let whoever is with me help if they want, but I check every chain and binder over again before I leave (even the ones I have done myself), so it really doesn't save much time having them help anyway, especially if I have to redo a chain.

SouthOnBeach

07-09-2008, 12:20 AM

Exactly. I'll let whoever is with me help if they want, but I check every chain and binder over again before I leave (even the ones I have done myself), so it really doesn't save much time having them help anyway, especially if I have to redo a chain.

If someone wants to help I just let them carry the chains and binders to each point, let someone else do all the heavy work. :rolleyes: Then I chain it my way and tighten them down myself. Hmmm I wonder why hardly anyone ever offers to help me :beatsme