2 trees to a load?

[Dwan Hall]

We still have a few big ones around. This shot is from our only logging co. in the Juneau area. They always have something going besides logging.

[CM1995]

That's one heck of a tree, especially when you consider the size of the KW!:eek:

Question - How come there is only one logging company in the Juneau area? Are the environmental rules tough or another economic reason?

[Dwan Hall]

You got it. Greenies have shut down everything or are trying to if it hasn't already been. Logging, Mining, road building, farting in the woods. you name it. OH I take that back not everything. The greenies here like to ski so they are punching in a new road across some muskeg, knocking down 4oo year trees just to have better access to a ski run.
it seems ok it they benefit but not ok for someone else to.

[Wolf]

Those are great pictures, and one heck of a tree.

I can't believe the greenies let them cut down a 400 year old tree. I think the reason that there is only one logging compnay in Juneau is that they are so busy knocking down the old growth trees in British Columbia that there is no need to tangle with the regulations in Alaska. Virtually no protection for old growth forests in BC, so might as well harvest those forests first. It's the "low hanging fruit" theory.

[JJK]

Whats the excuse for not building the road AROUND the tree?! That really is a shame.

[Wolf]

Whats the excuse for not building the road AROUND the tree?! That really is a shame.

You think too logically. There's money in taking down the tree (lumber) and employment opportunities. Why bother saving a 400 year old tree.

[PSDF350]

You two sound like a couple greenies. If a tree is cut down in the woods will it grow back? Sure as long as some damn mall aint built in it's spot. Believe it or not there is still old growth around here (wachuset mt).

As for old growth foreset (or should I say desert) there really isn't much game in a true old groth forest becuase there isn't enough young vegitation growing on the ground that can be easily gotten. Simple reason not enough sunlight reaches the ground. Did you know new england has been harvested at least 4 times. New Hampshire is still 83% wooded and logging is one of it's prime industries. Heck most all of new england was farmland at one point. Timber is a true renewable resource.

[Dwan Hall]

That tree or should I say thoes 2 trees (there are 2 of them on that truck) were not the ones the greenie's cut down. They had the 400 year trees mowed down chopped up on the spot and left in the forest for there road to get to the top of a hill to ski.

it is the old "do as I say not do as I do syn drum".
or "not in my back yard"

Juneau is at least for the time been still the capitol of the largest park in the world. ALASKA and ware to better control the park but from the capitol. and who controls most parks? tree huggers, anti mining people, anti do anything unless I say you can people. They still drive cars that use oil, drive on asphalt roads, ride bikes on asphalt bike paths, use things made of plastic, Talk on plastic cell phones, use plastic in there computers, etc. (70% of most things we have today have some connection to the oil industries.
I have a long list of people here that are againist mining, logging, building a road out of Juneau etc. that when they call me to do work for them it costs at least double, because I make sure I jump through there hoops, I even put up silt fence for projects less then 200 sq ft when working in there yard. I was in a greenies yard once and turned them to DEC for having a leaky oil tank.
As you can see I don't get mad, I get even.

[Wolf]

I was in a greenies yard once and turned them to DEC for having a leaky oil tank.
As you can see I don't get mad, I get even.

You are hilarious. What other bad things have you done to get even with the greenies? i love it.

And by the way, PSDF 350, where is there old growth left in New Hampshire. I can't believe it--how did it escape the axes and chain saws all these years. And is it protected now?

[JJK]

That tree or should I say thoes 2 trees (there are 2 of them on that truck) were not the ones the greenie's cut down. They had the 400 year trees mowed down chopped up on the spot and left in the forest for there road to get to the top of a hill to ski.

it is the old "do as I say not do as I do syn drum".
or "not in my back yard"

Juneau is at least for the time been still the capitol of the largest park in the world. ALASKA and ware to better control the park but from the capitol. and who controls most parks? tree huggers, anti mining people, anti do anything unless I say you can people. They still drive cars that use oil, drive on asphalt roads, ride bikes on asphalt bike paths, use things made of plastic, Talk on plastic cell phones, use plastic in there computers, etc. (70% of most things we have today have some connection to the oil industries.
I have a long list of people here that are againist mining, logging, building a road out of Juneau etc. that when they call me to do work for them it costs at least double, because I make sure I jump through there hoops, I even put up silt fence for projects less then 200 sq ft when working in there yard. I was in a greenies yard once and turned them to DEC for having a leaky oil tank.
As you can see I don't get mad, I get even.


lol thats pretty funny.

PSD - I'm not some "greenie" but to cut down a 400yr old tree just to put in a road is insane. I don't care who you are. There are hardly ANY nice wooded parks left here in NJ. Houses are only 10' apart in some areas or less. Luckily the state just made the northwest of our state farmland and you need atleast 5 acres to build a house.

Here more and more the arborists are trying to have the customer keep the tree & just trim it. Now that is a true renewable income that doesn't take 400 years to grow.

[Wolf]

PSD - I'm not some "greenie" but to cut down a 400yr old tree just to put in a road is insane. I don't care who you are.



I'm not some greenie either, I just can't wait around 400 years to cut it down again. 250 maybe but not 400

[PSDF350]

PSD - I'm not some "greenie" but to cut down a 400yr old tree just to put in a road is insane. I don't care who you are. There are hardly ANY nice wooded parks left here in NJ. Houses are only 10' apart in some areas or less. Luckily the state just made the northwest of our state farmland and you need atleast 5 acres to build a house. If the tree is in the way it's in the way, and needs to come down. Where not talking jersy here were talking alaska, a part of alaska that you cant even drive too. So some 400 year old tree that is sitting next to maybe a 500 year old tree or (2) 200 year old ones, whats the problem. Also whats the life expectancy of a sitka spruce? And by the way, PSDF 350, where is there old growth left in New Hampshire. I can't believe it--how did it escape the axes and chain saws all these years. And is it protected now?Actually it is in massachussetts. It is on mt wachuset in the state park next to ski area. It is old growth forest, but not old old as in it was harvested in 1700s then grew back and hasn't been cut since.

[John C.]

Dwan,
What's the name of the last logging company there? I used to go up there multiple times a year to work on logging equipment. Silver Bay Logging was the last company I went to then.

Those logs look like spruce. I have seen those big enough that the shovel would barely pick on end. Most of the time they were rotten through the middle.

As I recall, it was the elected folks in DC that killed the logging in Southeast. The logging contracts for the Tongass were rescinded and that was the end of logging on Federal land. The last time I was up your way I was on Prince of Wales and the only logging was on private land.

A little story about the first time I went to Juneau. Me and a partner flew into Eight Fathom Bight to work on a Hough loader. The company owner picked us up and at the same time a plane load of Forest Service no nothings landed in another plane. They did not pull up to the float, instead unloading their gear on the beach at low tide. They walked up the road while we went to the camp. We were just getting started working on the machine when one of the other workers called us over to look through a gap in the trees. Sure enough most of that gear left on the beach was floating and getting all balled up in the waves. The logging company people had a lot of smiling faces that day.

[Dwan Hall]

Silver Bay went bottoms up about 8 to 10 years ago. The Tongass has been closed to logging like you said for many years. That is why the mill at Sitka closed also the mill in Haines and the one in Ketchakan. The loss of over 1000 jobs.

[trakloader]

Those are great pictures, and one heck of a tree.

I can't believe the greenies let them cut down a 400 year old tree. I think the reason that there is only one logging compnay in Juneau is that they are so busy knocking down the old growth trees in British Columbia that there is no need to tangle with the regulations in Alaska. Virtually no protection for old growth forests in BC, so might as well harvest those forests first. It's the "low hanging fruit" theory.

Most of our logging in B.C. is second growth from the first world war, greenheads have shut down most old growth logging. And as you are probably aware, Home Depot has boycotted any lumber cut from "old growth" so that really slowed down the logging. There are still some big trees being cut, but it must be about 80% second growth here now. The greenies have no problem with cutting second growth, which is absurd. The second growth is the old growth of the future! The trees grow so fast here, we're even harvesting re-growth from the second war now. And that was all natural re-gen, not planted.

[Logman]

Here is a picture of a large Red Oak I cut a few days ago that measured 65" across the stump and had 1024 board feet (Doyle rule) in the first 16' cut. For Tennessee, that's a big tree! The saw is a Husky 395XP with 28" bar.

[WV_Logger]

nice red oak, we cut one a few years was 6'6" on the stump

[surfer-joe]

I read somewhere that the lower 48 has more forest now than when the Pilgrims landed. The east coast from Virginia north has so much forest that you can't see nothing for the trees.

JJK, there is a lot of woods in New Jersey, especially over on the west side around Stewartsville along the river. I don't know about parks, but I saw more deer there in the fall of 87 than a lot of other places I've been. I don't know if you can walk around in the woods near Stewartsville Dam and the impoundment. It's very nice there excepting for the bugs and humidity. Can't swim or fish the lake though, too much asbestos in the water, at least last I knew.

[thejdman04]

great pics

[Cat 236]

Hey Dawn, That is one nice looking KWopper Truck. Up my way we are Poor Boy Loggers and have to use old R Macks. Is that a Spotted Owl I see setting on the stick of that Track Hoe or is it a Booger on my PC Screen? Ha! Cat 236 0n the Kenai

[AusDave]

I read somewhere that the lower 48 has more forest now than when the Pilgrims landed. The east coast from Virginia north has so much forest that you can't see nothing for the trees.

JJK, there is a lot of woods in New Jersey, especially over on the west side around Stewartsville along the river. I don't know about parks, but I saw more deer there in the fall of 87 than a lot of other places I've been. I don't know if you can walk around in the woods near Stewartsville Dam and the impoundment. It's very nice there excepting for the bugs and humidity. Can't swim or fish the lake though, too much asbestos in the water, at least last I knew.

Hi guys.
At the risk of creating a few flames I'd just like to comment on the attitude of blaming greenies and other people who like to protect the natural environment for the problems of owners/operators and other people involved in the heavy equipment and allied industries.
I've been reading these forums for a while and thought that this attitude might be just a bit of a joke, but it seems to be a bit too serious for this.

I'm not picking on Surfer Joe's quote above, just noting that it contains comments that may or may not be true, but is being used to justify a point of view regardless of its veracity. This seems to happen fairly often in the forum just to stick it to the greenies etc who also strangely appear to be skiers as well. (In Australia "greenies" tend to be against expanding ski resort development).

Having stood up publicly for the environment for most of my life, I've found that most anti greenie/environmentalist comment is based on ignorance. Often an issue that is made out to be a "greenie" issue may have some other political or corporate subtext behind it which is easily disguised by subtle PR massaging to make sure any anger is directed at greenies. Also there are some so called greenies who are as ignorant as the most one eyed redneck, who really do the environmental cause as much damage as a D11 running amuck through an old growth forest.

In Australia we've lost a massive amount of our original forests in a continent which is the driest on earth. I spent some my early days on a Cat earthmoving for the NSW Soil Conservation Service repairing and preventing erosion damage and building dams and waterways to save water. I later bought my own dozers and went out on my own doing similar work in another state which did not have a soil conservation service that owned it's own equipment. We worked on farms where farmers whinged about greenies and environmentalists stopping them from making a buck while they ran down their farms overgrazing, overcropping and generally flogging it to death hoping the Govt would give them a handout to keep going.

On the other hand I worked on farms where the farmers were planting trees, where it had once been cleared, and ran their farms with sound environmental management practices. These farmers had healthier stock, survived droughts better and didn't expect a Govt handout when things got tough. Being a farmer and a "greenie" can be the most profitable way ahead.

We also have in Australia a timber industry that clearfells old growth forest, chips it and sends it overseas for single use fast food containers or single use chopsticks. When you do the sums on this type of industry it becomes apparent that it only exists through taxpayer subsidies, and is a waste of our forest. But big business interests lobby for these industries and even keep smaller sawmill operators out who would strategically log and turn the timber into high value products for home building, furniture making etc.

I live in a house which has timber in it as do most people. I also own other properties and do some of my own renovation. I like to know where my timber comes from when I buy it and choose to support sustainable sources, preferably local, and not timber from a south east asian rainforest which has had the locals kicked out and is laid waste by some Malaysian forestry business who only has to pay bribes to a few corrupt politicians to destroy the land and rivers where people lived relatively happily for generations.

I think we have a great responsibility to future generations to leave as much as possible of the environment we have benefitted from. As an Australian looking at the USA:usa and European soil through the photos on this site I can't get over the depth of your topsoil - often measured in feet! Here we are lucky to have a few inches, and that can blow away in a bad drought year if we don't look after it! And the last few years have been the driest on record for most of the South East corner of Australia where I live, so I am very conscious that climate change/global warming call it what you will, is having a negative impact here at least. I'll be planting a tree for Christmas, probably a Macadamia so I can protect the environment and have some nuts as well:)

Have a great Christmas wherever you are, regards Dave

[AtlasRob]

I read somewhere that the lower 48 has more forest now than when the Pilgrims landed. The east coast from Virginia north has so much forest that you can't see nothing for the trees.

JJK, there is a lot of woods in New Jersey, especially over on the west side around Stewartsville along the river. I don't know about parks, but I saw more deer there in the fall of 87 than a lot of other places I've been. I don't know if you can walk around in the woods near Stewartsville Dam and the impoundment. It's very nice there excepting for the bugs and humidity. Can't swim or fish the lake though, too much asbestos in the water, at least last I knew.

Hi guys.
At the risk of creating a few flames

I'm not picking on Surfer Joe's quote above, just noting that it contains comments that may or may not be true, but is being used to justify a point of view regardless of its veracity. This seems to happen fairly often in the forum just to stick it to the greenies etc who also strangely appear to be skiers as well. (In Australia "greenies" tend to be against expanding ski resort development).


Have a great Christmas wherever you are, regards Dave

I read the first 2 paragraphs and nearly gave up.................. but I did persevere to the end, the only comment I would make ( I have no intention of getting into an argument over your views and opinions of what you have read ) is where in Surfer Joe's quote is there anything about enviromentalists or greenies :beatsme he makes the statement as being HIS understanding of what he read who are you to say its wrong.
As for whether a persons comments are justified or not :beatsme

I read the post as a statement that there is MORE forest, is this statement not FOR the enviroment, :beatsme

NB veracity, habit of telling the truth, truthfulness.

[australian pete]

I read the first 2 paragraphs and nearly gave up.................. but I did persevere to the end, the only comment I would make ( I have no intention of getting into an argument over your views and opinions of what you have read ) is where in Surfer Joe's quote is there anything about enviromentalists or greenies :beatsme he makes the statement as being HIS understanding of what he read who are you to say its wrong.
As for whether a persons comments are justified or not :beatsme

I read the post as a statement that there is MORE forest, is this statement not FOR the enviroment, :beatsme

NB veracity, habit of telling the truth, truthfulness.

atlas rob, you are absolutely correct regarding surfer joe's comments and ausdaves comments about surfer joe.

as an australian i am embarrased by ausdaves comments, he makes a lot of statements without any real detail or evidence to back up his vague assertions, as for greenies and do gooders, they have their place i guess however ausdave and i may not agree as to where that place is. as for logging trees i cant see any problem provided more are planted to replace the trees logged, they grow back very quickly,when we mine coal, iron ore, minerals, oil etc they have taken millions of years to form, plant some trees and in 200 years thet are old growth forests". in a planet that is billions of years old 200 or even 400 years to grow some more trees is just a moment in time..

[AusDave]

Hi Aussie Pete & Atlas Rob.

Yeah, apologies re the length of the post you are responding to, in trying to be clear about what I was saying it seems I wasn't.

Firstly what I was trying to state was that my views mainly come from my experience and involvement as both a heavy equipment operator and owner in earthmoving & allied work, agriculture and my own businesses over nearly 30 years. In that time I have worked in the forestry industry as well. So Aussie Pete the background to my comments is not vague assertions etc and I'm happy to provide boring detail to back them up.

What I meant from Surfer Joe's post, as purely an example mind, is that although there may look to be a lot of trees in a region they may be just a buffer zone that is highly visible, a lot of trees may be exotic pest species, (some from Australia even), or it may be a monoculture that is no benefit to local native plants & animals and possibly susceptible to being wiped out from a single pest, disease, bushfire etc. Therefore it may be a poor example of justification for taking more trees from the region or elsewhere. But as I stated, there are a number of ways of logging, some are better for the environment and employment than others.

Yeah, I know I'm being the devils advocate here, but just as there are a lot of fine distinctions between different types of heavy equipment, (and from years of doing my own mechanical work I've come across a few), there are also a lot of fine distinctions between anything from a forest to a bog in terms of its value as an environmental asset or a fundamental asset to our urban lives such as a clean water supply.

In regard to your comment Aussie Pete re replacing trees etc after mining; in Australia I think we do a pretty good job with regard to mine rehabilitation nowadays. Possibly we are amongst the best in the world. It's in places like New Guinea and other developing countries where mines such as the BHP Ok Tedi project http://www.atimes.com/oceania/ah13ah01.html have caused billions of dollars of damage where the problems lie. I feel really lucky to be in Australia with our quality of life but not happy if other people in New Guinea and other developing countries have their lives, rivers and land destroyed due to poor practices, irresponsible corporations and bad government.

So don't be embarrassed Pete, we probably have a lot more in common than you think. I'm impressed by your mulcher though it's a bit large & costly for the trees and branches I've had to remove recently. The last big bit of timber I wanted to get rid of I had a guy come in with a mini mill and turn it into 2x4's and other useful timber and built some sheds out of it:)

Oh and don't forget, if the greenies and other members of the community want some things changed it can also be a business opportunity as well. I'm presently building a a small, (2 ton), portable machine for a segment of the recycling industry. I'll post more on this when I've finished construction.

Oh sh*t another long post nobody will understand. Maybe I'll get better with time.

Regards AusDave

[John C.]

The problems we have in the US with the greenies is that they never provide a solution to anything. To the majority of them all logging is bad, forest management means no contact by humans and any difference of opinion is settled in long protracted court battles.

In Washington State, our schools are supported in part by the utilization of state owned forests. Many years ago environmental factions used protracted court battles to shut down almost all logging of state forests. The greenies didn't win in the courts, they just spent more money than the attorney general could justify taking from state taxpayers. Now that segment of state government is perpetually underfunded.

The same has happened on the Federal level by using the Endangered Species Act. Basically they have identified an owl that may or may not be doing well in this part of the country. The number of owls in question has never been specifically identified and only vague science has been used to specifically define the issue. But again because of the court battles a resource industry is disappearing.

The people in logging, mining or manufacturing are looking to identify and solve problems. A growing population is going to require resource utilization. Perhaps the greenies should concentrate on limiting their own population as an example of proper resouce managment.

[australian pete]

Hi Aussie Pete & Atlas Rob.

Yeah, apologies re the length of the post you are responding to, in trying to be clear about what I was saying it seems I wasn't.

Firstly what I was trying to state was that my views mainly come from my experience and involvement as both a heavy equipment operator and owner in earthmoving & allied work, agriculture and my own businesses over nearly 30 years. In that time I have worked in the forestry industry as well. So Aussie Pete the background to my comments is not vague assertions etc and I'm happy to provide boring detail to back them up.

What I meant from Surfer Joe's post, as purely an example mind, is that although there may look to be a lot of trees in a region they may be just a buffer zone that is highly visible, a lot of trees may be exotic pest species, (some from Australia even), or it may be a monoculture that is no benefit to local native plants & animals and possibly susceptible to being wiped out from a single pest, disease, bushfire etc. Therefore it may be a poor example of justification for taking more trees from the region or elsewhere. But as I stated, there are a number of ways of logging, some are better for the environment and employment than others.

Yeah, I know I'm being the devils advocate here, but just as there are a lot of fine distinctions between different types of heavy equipment, (and from years of doing my own mechanical work I've come across a few), there are also a lot of fine distinctions between anything from a forest to a bog in terms of its value as an environmental asset or a fundamental asset to our urban lives such as a clean water supply.

In regard to your comment Aussie Pete re replacing trees etc after mining; in Australia I think we do a pretty good job with regard to mine rehabilitation nowadays. Possibly we are amongst the best in the world. It's in places like New Guinea and other developing countries where mines such as the BHP Ok Tedi project http://www.atimes.com/oceania/ah13ah01.html have caused billions of dollars of damage where the problems lie. I feel really lucky to be in Australia with our quality of life but not happy if other people in New Guinea and other developing countries have their lives, rivers and land destroyed due to poor practices, irresponsible corporations and bad government.

So don't be embarrassed Pete, we probably have a lot more in common than you think. I'm impressed by your mulcher though it's a bit large & costly for the trees and branches I've had to remove recently. The last big bit of timber I wanted to get rid of I had a guy come in with a mini mill and turn it into 2x4's and other useful timber and built some sheds out of it:)

Oh and don't forget, if the greenies and other members of the community want some things changed it can also be a business opportunity as well. I'm presently building a a small, (2 ton), portable machine for a segment of the recycling industry. I'll post more on this when I've finished construction.

Oh sh*t another long post nobody will understand. Maybe I'll get better with time.

Regards AusDave

aus dave, i did not suggest australia is bad at rehabilitating mines, not sure where you got that, i too am a proud australian who thinks we do a brilliant job of rehabilitating old mines, a great example of that is penrith lakes near where i live, a huge deposit of sand and concrete aggregates that is being turned in to a magnificent series of lakes at no cost to the residents, penrith lakes hosted the rowing in the 2000 olympics, i will decline your offer of providing more boring detail, i think you have already done plenty of that. some friendly advice, keep the posts short and do not cover too many subjects in one post.

[australian pete]

The problems we have in the US with the greenies is that they never provide a solution to anything. To the majority of them all logging is bad, forest management means no contact by humans and any difference of opinion is settled in long protracted court battles.

In Washington State, our schools are supported in part by the utilization of state owned forests. Many years ago environmental factions used protracted court battles to shut down almost all logging of state forests. The greenies didn't win in the courts, they just spent more money than the attorney general could justify taking from state taxpayers. Now that segment of state government is perpetually underfunded.

The same has happened on the Federal level by using the Endangered Species Act. Basically they have identified an owl that may or may not be doing well in this part of the country. The number of owls in question has never been specifically identified and only vague science has been used to specifically define the issue. But again because of the court battles a resource industry is disappearing.

The people in logging, mining or manufacturing are looking to identify and solve problems. A growing population is going to require resource utilization. Perhaps the greenies should concentrate on limiting their own population as an example of proper resouce managment.
john, i like your solution to greenie resource managment. sadly however i doubt they will consider your suggestion, they do not usually like logical outcomes.

[PSDF350]

The problems we have in the US with the greenies is that they never provide a solution to anything. To the majority of them all logging is bad, forest management means no contact by humans and any difference of opinion is settled in long protracted court battles.

In Washington State, our schools are supported in part by the utilization of state owned forests. Many years ago environmental factions used protracted court battles to shut down almost all logging of state forests. The greenies didn't win in the courts, they just spent more money than the attorney general could justify taking from state taxpayers. Now that segment of state government is perpetually underfunded.

The same has happened on the Federal level by using the Endangered Species Act. Basically they have identified an owl that may or may not be doing well in this part of the country. The number of owls in question has never been specifically identified and only vague science has been used to specifically define the issue. But again because of the court battles a resource industry is disappearing.

The people in logging, mining or manufacturing are looking to identify and solve problems. A growing population is going to require resource utilization. Perhaps the greenies should concentrate on limiting their own population as an example of proper resouce managment.Let's no forget that the spotted owl it is now known wasn't endangerd from logging but a bigger owl.:Pointhead

[AtlasRob]

AusDave, thanks for your response.

I dont really want to flame this issue as I am sure many of us have opinions about many things that are best kept to the bar on a Friday night with a few mates and a couple of beers.
BUT :D
It amazes me that as soon as a new road or development is planned the site has to be investigated by the enviromental specialists.........and low and behold some rare species of flower, fauna or wild life is discovered that people thought was long exstinct or never been discovered in this part of the country before and therefore it becomes a SSSI. ( Site of Special Scientific Interest )
Its probably been there and a lot of other places for time and eternity, just nobody bothered to go and look before. :beatsme :drinkup

[AusDave]

AusDave, thanks for your response.

I dont really want to flame this issue as I am sure many of us have opinions about many things that are best kept to the bar on a Friday night with a few mates and a couple of beers.
BUT :D
It amazes me that as soon as a new road or development is planned the site has to be investigated by the enviromental specialists.........and low and behold some rare species of flower, fauna or wild life is discovered that people thought was long exstinct or never been discovered in this part of the country before and therefore it becomes a SSSI. ( Site of Special Scientific Interest )
Its probably been there and a lot of other places for time and eternity, just nobody bothered to go and look before. :beatsme :drinkup

Hi Atlas Rob.

I've been involved in situations such as you describe and quite often there is basic or detailed knowledge that some rare or threatened species is or could be located on a certain site. However the local council, state or federal Govt isn't keen to spend a lot of taxpayers money on studies. That happens when a developer comes along and wants to develop that site. They pay for the environmental studies and it goes on from there.

We had and still do have a situation in my area where one of Australia's largest developers bought a heavily wooded site and then had to cough up to do the environmental studies and a lot of other $$ work. However they can't complain they didn't know as the previous developer knew what they were up for and that's why they sold the site. Most of the community knew the issues as well. The proposed development site adjoined National Parks and all runoff flowed into a Marine Park in an area where the main industry is tourism.
Didn't have to be a genius to know this site was gonna cost. And now they are having trouble selling lots because of the collapse in the housing market. Considering what they paid for the land I think they speculated more than their shareholders would be happy with.

In my opinion however things are going to be more like this than less in the future. There are just more people every year and less resources like unencumbered land, cheap non polluting energy etc to go round. A friend of mine bought an old Mercedes diesel car and processed his own fuel from local fish and chip shop deep friers. Smart move. He's also been importing and selling wind generators on eBay and doing well there too. He used to mainly do cartoon animation work but as that work went offshore to sweatshops in Asia, he had to diversify.

A bit shorter post this time, I hope it makes sense, AusDave

[australian pete]

Hi Atlas Rob.

I've been involved in situations such as you describe and quite often there is basic or detailed knowledge that some rare or threatened species is or could be located on a certain site. However the local council, state or federal Govt isn't keen to spend a lot of taxpayers money on studies. That happens when a developer comes along and wants to develop that site. They pay for the environmental studies and it goes on from there.

We had and still do have a situation in my area where one of Australia's largest developers bought a heavily wooded site and then had to cough up to do the environmental studies and a lot of other $$ work. However they can't complain they didn't know as the previous developer knew what they were up for and that's why they sold the site. Most of the community knew the issues as well. The proposed development site adjoined National Parks and all runoff flowed into a Marine Park in an area where the main industry is tourism.
Didn't have to be a genius to know this site was gonna cost. And now they are having trouble selling lots because of the collapse in the housing market. Considering what they paid for the land I think they speculated more than their shareholders would be happy with.

In my opinion however things are going to be more like this than less in the future. There are just more people every year and less resources like unencumbered land, cheap non polluting energy etc to go round. A friend of mine bought an old Mercedes diesel car and processed his own fuel from local fish and chip shop deep friers. Smart move. He's also been importing and selling wind generators on eBay and doing well there too. He used to mainly do cartoon animation work but as that work went offshore to sweatshops in Asia, he had to diversify.

A bit shorter post this time, I hope it makes sense, AusDave

hi aus dave , the site you refer to that all runoff goes in to a marine park, where is that site ? who is the developer ? im curious.

[AusDave]

hi aus dave , the site you refer to that all runoff goes in to a marine park, where is that site ? who is the developer ? im curious.

Hi Aussie Pete.

The site is adjoining Jervis Bay Marine Park and the developer is Stockland.

Regards Dave

[special tool]

:popcorn
Haha, great thread!
Australian Pete - thanks for lending some balance.

[australian pete]

Hi Aussie Pete.

The site is adjoining Jervis Bay Marine Park and the developer is Stockland.

Regards Dave

that's a nice part of the world there, i learnt to scuba dive at huskisson many years ago, how much are they trying to sell the blocks for?

[australian pete]

:popcorn
Haha, great thread!
Australian Pete - thanks for lending some balance.

thanks special tool, dunno if i bring any balance though, i am anti greenie, anti do gooder, anti epa, pro mining and pro logging.:)

[Iron Horse]

Even people like myself who take down trees for a living and to support a thriving building industry are enviromentaly aware . We are cautious of where a tree may fall so it does not damage other trees and native plants . We are cautious of where and how we drive our machines when recovering a log . We own state of the art machinery and trucks that run as clean as possible . Our trucks have central tyre inflation systems fitted so that pressures can be adjusted in motion so that tyre damage to logging roads is at a minimum etc etc . Logging is an essential industry from a renewable resource .

In Australia , someone who cares for the enviroment is not the "Greenie" we speak of .

The "Greenie" we speak of is the one with the Roach infested Dreadlocks , on the Dole for all of their life , drives a smoke belching enviromental nightmare car and turns up at protest rallies with the other "Rent-A-Mob" clowns and leaves the area looking like a rubbish tip when it's over .

It was assesed some years ago that one of these scumbags living on the Dole and not producing an income for the country was in fact costing the country 3 million dollars in Dole payments , health care and lost revenue etc during thier lifetime . The cost at the mill for a load of logs is about $1600 . The recovery is about 2/3 of saw timber . I wonder how many loads of logs has to be taken from the forests just to cover the 3 million dollars per "Greenie" (and theres plenty of them) before we as a country even break even ? So when you see a "Greenie" up a tri-pod , chained to a gate or burning a machine , do the right thing and think of the enviroment ***.

[australian pete]

Even people like myself who take down trees for a living and to support a thriving building industry are enviromentaly aware . We are cautious of where a tree may fall so it does not damage other trees and native plants . We are cautious of where and how we drive our machines when recovering a log . We own state of the art machinery and trucks that run as clean as possible . Our trucks have central tyre inflation systems fitted so that pressures can be adjusted in motion so that tyre damage to logging roads is at a minimum etc etc . Logging is an essential industry from a renewable resource .

In Australia , someone who cares for the enviroment is not the "Greenie" we speak of .

The "Greenie" we speak of is the one with the Roach infested Dreadlocks , on the Dole for all of their life , drives a smoke belching enviromental nightmare car and turns up at protest rallies with the other "Rent-A-Mob" clowns and leaves the area looking like a rubbish tip when it's over .

It was assesed some years ago that one of these scumbags living on the Dole and not producing an income for the country was in fact costing the country 3 million dollars in Dole payments , health care and lost revenue etc during thier lifetime . The cost at the mill for a load of logs is about $1600 . The recovery is about 2/3 of saw timber . I wonder how many loads of logs has to be taken from the forests just to cover the 3 million dollars per "Greenie" (and theres plenty of them) before we as a country even break even ? So when you see a "Greenie" up a tri-pod , chained to a gate or burning a machine , do the right thing and think of the enviroment ***.
gidday iron horse, you have been quiet, agree with you regarding the greenies you describe, i believe we have to do most things in life in moderation, whether that be mining, logging, driving, working, drinking beer or saving the environment, sadly however i have never met nor heard of a moderate greenie,they are against everything except electric cars, solar and wind power. while those are great we do need other stuff which is where i start do disagree with greenies.how is your new excavator going ? have a happy new year, regards, pete.

[AusDave]

that's a nice part of the world there, i learnt to scuba dive at huskisson many years ago, how much are they trying to sell the blocks for?

Yes it's very nice which is why we live here. Don't want to see it stuffed up. Years ago they wanted to put a nuclear power station on one side of the Bay and a Steel Mill on the other. The water can be so clear that some large ships anchor here for an underwater inspection. Some pics below of the area and me getting some recreation and work time. I sell kitesurfing and windsurfing equipment over summer too:)

The Stockland property prices are here http://www.stockland.com.au/Residential/NSW/SouthCoast/Bayswood/Land/ for land and here http://www.stockland.com.au/Residential/NSW/SouthCoast/Bayswood/Homes/ for homes.
But there is a lot of property on the market down here in better (even waterfront) locations at very good prices. There are a lot of holiday homes in the villages here that come on the market frequently, especially now, plus retirees who are often selling up for smaller or moving on.

Regards Dave

[Iron Horse]

gidday iron horse, you have been quiet, agree with you regarding the greenies you describe, i believe we have to do most things in life in moderation, whether that be mining, logging, driving, working, drinking beer or saving the environment, sadly however i have never met nor heard of a moderate greenie,they are against everything except electric cars, solar and wind power. while those are great we do need other stuff which is where i start do disagree with greenies.how is your new excavator going ? have a happy new year, regards, pete.


G'day Pete , happy new year mate , and to all .

I get into trouble with people at BBQ'S because of what i do for a living . They get up me for clearing trees for housing developments etc . I say to them that they never said a word when the trees were coming down to make room for thier "wooden" framed house . They say proudly , yes it is wooden framed but most of it is brick and tile . I then say , yes brick and tiles that are made out of clay . Have you ever seen the size of area they clear and the size of the hole they dig to extract the clay for those bricks and tiles or the coke they burn to cure them ? Everyone is "Green" while it suits them .

Eventualy the conversation turns to "Geen" power , i bite my tongue for a while and then ask them , have you any idea how poluting the factories are that produce Photovolactic panels ? What about the factories that produce the lead batteries or the factory that makes the Sulphuric acid to fill those batteries ? I then go sit with the wife who is the only one still talking to me ;).

I wish these "Greenies" would go out and actually do something positive for the enviroment to lessen THIER footprint on the planet . Instead of talking GREEN and protesting against EVERTHING . Go out and shoot some feral cats and dogs , go out and spray some Lantana in the forest or pick up some rubbish along the roadside , DON'T JUST TALK ABOUT IT , DO IT .

Now that's out of my system .
The excavator is still running well , but now ive created a need for a large chipper to get rid of the waste . I did'nt want to get that big and have to start employing guys as i like it on my own . Regards Reg .

[australian pete]

G'day Pete , happy new year mate , and to all .

I get into trouble with people at BBQ'S because of what i do for a living . They get up me for clearing trees for housing developments etc . I say to them that they never said a word when the trees were coming down to make room for thier "wooden" framed house . They say proudly , yes it is wooden framed but most of it is brick and tile . I then say , yes brick and tiles that are made out of clay . Have you ever seen the size of area they clear and the size of the hole they dig to extract the clay for those bricks and tiles or the coke they burn to cure them ? Everyone is "Green" while it suits them .

Eventualy the conversation turns to "Geen" power , i bite my tongue for a while and then ask them , have you any idea how poluting the factories are that produce Photovolactic panels ? What about the factories that produce the lead batteries or the factory that makes the Sulphuric acid to fill those batteries ? I then go sit with the wife who is the only one still talking to me ;).

I wish these "Greenies" would go out and actually do something positive for the enviroment to lessen THIER footprint on the planet . Instead of talking GREEN and protesting against EVERTHING . Go out and shoot some feral cats and dogs , go out and spray some Lantana in the forest or pick up some rubbish along the roadside , DON'T JUST TALK ABOUT IT , DO IT .

Now that's out of my system .
The excavator is still running well , but now ive created a need for a large chipper to get rid of the waste . I did'nt want to get that big and have to start employing guys as i like it on my own . Regards Reg .

happy new year to you reg, i could not agree more with your comments about greenies, like i said i have never met a moderate greenie, i think it is good to have people who care about the environment otherwise the planet would be raped and pillaged, it is just a shame they cant be a little more balanced and not oppose anything and everything. i live on 46 acres, 10 of it was cleared when i moved here 2 years ago, another 10 acres is scrub and regrowth where it had been cleared years ago, the rest is natural bush with various eacalyptus trees, i started clearing the regrowth with an old fiat track loader, worked for 2 days and cleared about 5 acres when a neighbour dobbed me in to the council, council inspector comes out and reads me the riot act, i played dumb and said some of the stuff i cleared was to get at the lantana to spray it, was like a jungle, you could not walk through it, he told me i would have to spray it with a back pack which was impossible, have since done a little more selective clearing with a skid steer (much quieter) and have now got rid of all the lantana, he even got up me about pushing over dead trees because insects lived in them and birds ate the insects, i replied the dead trees were still there for the insects to live in, they were now horizontal rather than vertical and i did not think the insects would mind, he failed to appreciate my sense of humour. i know what you mean about employing people, i have myself and 1 guy which is ok, in previous businesses i have employed a lot more and 1 employee is much easier to manage although none is easier still, as to your position i guess your dammed if you do and dammed if you dont.

[australian pete]

hi dave, nice pics, i had a quick look at the website , blocks from $145,000. that seems very reasonable for there, when i learnt to dive i stayed at huskisson for a week, i was a lot younger and fitter then, i used to run to vincentia and back every afternoon, i thought land would be a lot more expensive there. i have a vague recolection about a proposd nuclear plant at jervis bay, i think the politicians were just testing public reaction, i doubt there will ever be a nuclear power plant built in australia, or another steelworks, cheaper to import steel from china.

[Wolf]

Here is a picture of a large Red Oak I cut a few days ago that measured 65" across the stump and had 1024 board feet (Doyle rule) in the first 16' cut. For Tennessee, that's a big tree! The saw is a Husky 395XP with 28" bar.

that is one heck of a big tree. how did you get away with cutting down something that big and that old without the leaflickers and tree huggers going wild? or didn't they see you do it til it was too late, heh heh heh.

[Iron Horse]

i have a vague recolection about a proposd nuclear plant at jervis bay, i think the politicians were just testing public reaction, i doubt there will ever be a nuclear power plant built in australia .

The public fall for it every time , the government would have had another agenda that they wanted to quietly push through . So they come up with things like nuclear power plants and pulp mills to draw the public eye and then the sneaky buggers get busy while no ones looking . Hmmm , maybe i should learn a few tricks from the masters .

[australian pete]

The public fall for it every time , the government would have had another agenda that they wanted to quietly push through . So they come up with things like nuclear power plants and pulp mills to draw the public eye and then the sneaky buggers get busy while no ones looking . Hmmm , maybe i should learn a few tricks from the masters .

politicians are very good at manipulating the media, another of their favourites is to leak a story to the press to guage public opinion, a good way see see if they can get away with whatever they want to do, if it creates a lot of negative publicity they can just deny they were considering it..