Seems that Deere is the preferred Make here...

[LaLaMan]

It seems to me that everyone here preferes Deere equipment, except in the area of excavators where Komatsu seems to win out.

Is there a reason why? Is it price? Or is it parts availability? Is it logistics, the dealer is down the block from your shop.

Ill try to make comparision, in the trucking industry theres a debate over long nosed conventionals; and for the purposes of this discussion Ill used the day cab models for this (Pete 379, Freightliner Classic XL, Kenny W900) considered the cadillac, big motors, lots of power and style, more expensive then a Mack or Western Star. But some guys feel its worth it to spend more on the Pete 379 over the Granite b/c the Pete will resale higher.

From looking online Cats ALWAYS grab more money then a Deere, Case, New Holland, or jap brand.

So is worth it to get the Cat 320 over the compariable Deere or Case b/c you know the Cat will resale more, sort of offsetting the higher initial cost?

Ive always felt that the Cadillac was the Cat, then the Deere, then the Case, and all other makes were just second rate to them.

[CascadeScaper]

I wouldn't say that any brand sells more than the other, it's customer preference.. I don't have aything against Deere, I just like Cat better. When you buy a Cat you're paying for the name mostly, but you're also paying for the dealer support which, in my experience, is second to none. We get great service from our dealer and being a small landscape contractor having bought only one piece from them so far, our sales guy has bent over backwards to make sure we're up and running everyday and is also helping us with a new 304CR.

[cat320]

I think it depends on the the following:
1.how close is the dealer
2. dealer suport
3. the specs on a particular machine you want
4. the price because price does not mean anything if it will not perform or you can't get parts or suport for it ,but on the other hand price may mean everything if you plan on using it then get ride of it at the end of you job like alot of the bigger co. seam to do.

[Steve Frazier]

LaLaMan, when you say "here", are you referring to your location or this site? I'm a little foggy on that.

My preference for Cat comes from my experience with the dealer and my confidence in my machine. If I need something, parts or an attachment, I make one call, and the ball gets rolling right away. Parts are overnight if not in stock, and attachments are about a week if not in stock. Downtime costs money and I look for the least amount of that as possible!

My Cat dealer is 10 minutes away too and has a full service facility including machine shop on site, there isn't any job they can't handle in house. I've had a slightly different experience with the local Deere dealer.

When I was shopping for my skid steer, I made 3 trips to the Deere dealer, my assigned salesman was never there. I left a card each time and explained my interest but never received a follow up call. I also owned a JD 410 at this time so the parts man was familiar with me. I often had to wait several days for parts and one transmission shaft took 2 weeks to get. I can't afford to have my machine down that long, no work, no income!

Don't get me wrong, I think John Deere makes a real nice TLB and I like their wheel loaders as far as operation, but if dealer support isn't there, then the machine will cost money in the long run even if the initial price is lower.

[Tigerotor77W]

It seems to me that everyone here preferes Deere equipment, except in the area of excavators where Komatsu seems to win out.

Is there a reason why? Is it price? Or is it parts availability? Is it logistics, the dealer is down the block from your shop.

Ill try to make comparision, in the trucking industry theres a debate over long nosed conventionals; and for the purposes of this discussion Ill used the day cab models for this (Pete 379, Freightliner Classic XL, Kenny W900) considered the cadillac, big motors, lots of power and style, more expensive then a Mack or Western Star. But some guys feel its worth it to spend more on the Pete 379 over the Granite b/c the Pete will resale higher.

From looking online Cats ALWAYS grab more money then a Deere, Case, New Holland, or jap brand.

So is worth it to get the Cat 320 over the compariable Deere or Case b/c you know the Cat will resale more, sort of offsetting the higher initial cost?

Ive always felt that the Cadillac was the Cat, then the Deere, then the Case, and all other makes were just second rate to them.

While it's very true that initial price is somewhat offset by the resale value of the machine, there is no end to describing why some machines are "better" than others. Everything people have already posted here is true -- sometimes operator preference is a big issue. Sometimes performance is an issue. Sometimes fuel efficiency is an issue. Dealer support makes a huge impact on return customers. But as far as pricing is concerned, there's no good way to explain which manufacturer can be "better" than another.

Suppose you have two choices: a Deere 270C or a Cat 320C (because you're going on direct pricing, and those two are in the same ballpark). The 270C is a heavier machine, but you go for the Cat because it may have higher resale value. But now you are on a jobsite and need to place a pipe that outweighs your 320's lift capacity. If you break something on the 320C (twist the boom, for example, because you were lifting the pipe, began to tip, and swung quickly -- into the trench walls -- and caused your stick to hit the walls, thereby twisting your boom), you will end up repaying every cent of that "resale value" in parts costs for the machine.

On another note, suppose that you bought the 270C with a longer stick. It was cheaper to begin with, say, so you decided that the "resale offset" would justify the lower purchasing price. But while roading the excavator, there is a low bridge... and with the longer stick, your boom scrapes the underside of the bridge, causing the bridge to drop chunks of material on your machine and damaging it severly. Is the lower initial cost still worth it to you?

The point of these two scenarios wasn't to try to point out that "stuff happens" or "operator error is costly." It's far more important to weigh in factors outside of cost initially than it is to put a price on a machine and say, "I want to look at machines in this price range." Ignoring the other factors -- be it performance or dimensions or fuel efficiency -- can quickly negate whatever price differential may exist between two machines, so when you pick, take price WHILE considering the whole package. Not just resale value or just operator comfort or just dealer service, but combine them. The machine you'll be buying is your tool for success -- so if there is any one factor making it unappealing, it's best to reconsider the product you're looking at. Steve's example is excellent in showing the worthiness of dealer support. If you buy a machine for a quarter of a million dollars, you'd expect to get good treatment and have it taken care of. In many cases, what does differentiate between two identical machines -- perhaps even a Hitachi 300C compared to a Deere 300C -- is dealer service.

As for whether Deere is the preferred equipment manufacturer, it all depends on who you talk to. As Steve pointed out, you weren't explicit as to where you noticed more Deere people. While it is true that Deere has made some very impressive inroads in many markets in the past seven years, there is no single reason for it. I will say this -- competitors have not been sitting idle all these years, waiting for the moment to release their seven product lines to change the world, so don't expect the Deere line to forever remain the most innovative.

[Nac]

I am a big Deere fan I own a John Deere 250II skid steer never had a problem with and love it. I own a John Deere 160Clc excavator I have ran Cat , Komatsu, Case for me John Deere is the way to go not to put the other brands down because there are all about the same. I have a Komatsu PC-45 mini-excavtor the only reson is that when i call my John Deere dealer he was out out of the John Deere 50 so he had a Komatsu that they took on trade and sent me that to get out of a bind. I had it on rent for 6 months so it was silly for me to return I just bought it they gave me a great deal just to keep it out of there yard. I find in my area NJ Jesco John Deere is a great dealership they are always there when I need them. I called Foley cat when I was loking for a skid steer it took them 2 weeks to call me back. I delt with Binder Komatsu there were good at first but since I never bought there skid steer it's like they dont want to bother with me any more. I used Trico Case to by my hammer and connect it to my mini and there attachment guy and service was great. I just dont like case equipment.

[coopers]

Like everyone is saying, I think it depends the buyer’s criteria, where the dealer is, how available parts are etc. etc. It also comes down to what people like personally. I like Deere excavators, dozers, loaders, etc. but the only reason why I don't like the backhoes is because I can't get used to Deere controls. Plus I've always had a soft spot for Case backhoes and they make really good backhoes. But everyone makes good machines now-a-days IMO. I think that everyone does a find job at making excavators, from Kubota, Link Belt, Deere, Kobelco etc. Deere came out with A LOT of improved machines and Cat seems to be following but slowly if you ask me. Nothing grabs my interest whenever I see a Cat machine; they seem to be the same as they always have been. But they do still do have a good grasp of the market followed by Deere. But there are a lot of companies merging, like Case and New Holland in the agriculture division so that becomes a big competitor as well. I personally think the Cat mini-excavators and all Cat's CUT's have a horrible design to them (no offense to those that own Cat stuff), to me when you just look at the CUT's and mini-excavators they look like machines back from the early 90's. I don' t know. But up here, CAT and Deere are the closest dealers and then you have New Holland and Kubota for the compact machines. Case if far south of us and Link Belt is even further south of us. So..... But in the end I think it really comes down to what the person prefers. People can come up with reasons why they like or don' t like a particular product such as me, but in the end I just like certain companies over others when it comes to a certain machine. Like I said, these days EVERYONE makes very good machines it's just what the buyer finds suitable for them.

Blake
WA

[LaLaMan]

When I said here, I meant this website, just to clear that up.

And the point of my question was just for my own courisoity.

I was always courious why companies bought one make over the other. And its very intresting how some companies are partnered or have some of the same manfactures for their engines, carriages, chassis, ect. For instance Case, New Holland. In last months Construction Equipment they pointed out how there is 14 manfactures but some equipment is sort of rebadged.

Because of this, CE conclusion was that electronic features will dictate what machine contractors will buy.

[Tigerotor77W]

I haven't seen the issue yet, as I'm not at the mailing address of the magazines, but I would tend to disagree. A Komatsu skid steer has more electronics, for example, than a NH or Deere (generally), but I won't buy the Komatsu for its advanced electronics. Certain features that manufacturers have installed are useful -- on large wheel loaders, Deere's tractive effort dial is a good feature, for instance -- but many contractors, when asked about why they purchase *large* numbers of a certain brand, still reply with dealer service. Occasionally it's the lowest bid that wins (especially in municipalities or smaller contractors), but I'm not sure I'd agree with the CEM argument that machines are about the electronics.

In five years, definitely agreed (assuming total devastation doesn't come to the CE industry and wipe out all electronics technology). Currently, however, the electronics industry is growing -- not taking over. Cat Electronics is putting a lot of automation in its products, but for now, a seasoned wheel loader operator will still be better in a given wheel loader than a wheel loader controlled entirely by computers. The electronics are designed to complement a stable machine platform. If the machine itself is bad, people won't buy it, even if it has the best dealer support and fanciest electronics in it.

This certainly isn't to say electronics aren't important or that they don't make a difference in purchasing decisions. (They definitely do -- people will buy Cat skids for their anti-stall ability alone.) However, at this point, I still don't feel electronics is the one area that will distinguish one machine from another. Not yet, anyhow.

PS -- Larry, not attacking you or CEM. I haven't seen the issue yet and don't know exactly what the implications are.

[CEwriter]

We occasionally survey the industry to find out which factors influence buying decisions most and, no surprise, the Top 3 factors are virtually always Dealer Support, Performance, and Price -- usually in that order of importance.

On the issue of re-badged machines: In some product categories (skid-steer loaders, excavators, telehandlers come to mind) there are several brands sourced from one or two manufacturing plants. Products from the same manufacturer are usually quite similar. The brands typically try to differentiate themselves by varying the lists of standard and optional equipment, although there are sometimes differences as significant as, for example, Deere engines used in one line and Mitsubishi engines used in another.

In some instances, differences in the electronic controls seem to be the primary distinction between the operational systems of two brands that come from the same manufacturing plant. When reviewing product characteristics (in stories where we're just talking about product -- not dealer support) we strive to point out what appear to be the primary, functional differences between these very similar machines.

We would make that type of observation only in a discussion of two brands of machines that are engineered and/or manufactured by one company. It's very unlikely that we would suggest that the key difference between, for example, a Komatsu and a Deere is their electronic systems. Those are two very distinct brands, with very distinct engineering and manufacturing.

Question for the group: Do you want to know which brands are manufactured in the same place?

Thanks,

L

[BRL]

Question for the group: Do you want to know which brands are manufactured in the same place?

Thanks,

L

Of course! Thanks.



I hadn't noticed that "Deere seems to be the preferred Make here". I need to pay more attention to what I'm reading.

[Tigerotor77W]

We occasionally survey the industry to find out which factors influence buying decisions most and, no surprise, the Top 3 factors are virtually always Dealer Support, Performance, and Price -- usually in that order of importance.

On the issue of re-badged machines: In some product categories (skid-steer loaders, excavators, telehandlers come to mind) there are several brands sourced from one or two manufacturing plants. Products from the same manufacturer are usually quite similar. The brands typically try to differentiate themselves by varying the lists of standard and optional equipment, although there are sometimes differences as significant as, for example, Deere engines used in one line and Mitsubishi engines used in another.

In some instances, differences in the electronic controls seem to be the primary distinction between the operational systems of two brands that come from the same manufacturing plant. When reviewing product characteristics (in stories where we're just talking about product -- not dealer support) we strive to point out what appear to be the primary, functional differences between these very similar machines.

We would make that type of observation only in a discussion of two brands of machines that are engineered and/or manufactured by one company. It's very unlikely that we would suggest that the key difference between, for example, a Komatsu and a Deere is their electronic systems. Those are two very distinct brands, with very distinct engineering and manufacturing.

Question for the group: Do you want to know which brands are manufactured in the same place?

Thanks,

L

[Edit: speaking of not reading posts well! Sheesh. I just realized that Larry asked us if we WANTED to know which brands were made in the same place, not WHICH brands were made in the same place. Ah well.]

Gotcha. I realize I misinterpreted the statement because I didn't read the article.

As far as engines go: I was very, very surprised to see ASV use "Perkins" engines now because two years ago when the RC series came out, they were all about "We use the Cat 3044C engine." All the engines now listed on the ASV site are "Perkins," even though the Cat engine is the Perkins engine. Not sure why exactly ASV is no longer fully using Cat's name.

As far as which machines are manufacturered in the same plants... that's a tough one. I can't do research on it right now, but I'm pretty sure Deere and Hitachi excavators are made in the same plant (Hitachi's), and that the Deere 950 and 1050 dozers are made in Liebherr's plant (and probably not in the US, I think). Deere ADTs are Bell ADTs and if I'm not mistaken, were originally made in South Africa with a plant scheduled to open (or a plant that has opened) in the States sometime. CNH is a mess to pick apart, but the loaders and excavators are more or less Fiat machines and might be produced in Carol Stream, IL (where the old Fiat-Allis HQ were located), but I'm not sure if CS remains a manufacturing location. Case excavators and LBX excavators, part of the Sumitomo deal, are made in Japan, I think.

And I can be dead wrong on all of those statements, but ah well, those are my guesses. :) Can't think of anything else at the moment...

[Tigerotor77W]

Larry -- when you get a chance, I'm sure everyone here (including myself) would love to hear the real deal on who makes what, where.

[CEwriter]

Honestly, it's hard to keep track of all the relationships. Almost have to do it one product line at a time. For excavators, if you read through this story

http://www.constructionequipment.com/buyingfile/ce05ca002.asp

and the accompanying Gallery items (the links under "Gallery of Excavators" along the right side of that page), you'll find all the relationships between brands. I didn't go into the actual location of manufacture on all of them.

L

[Tigerotor77W]

Gotcha! Thanks. I saw the article online but didn't realize the links were clickable -- thought never crossed my mind.

[coopers]

That's a very interesting article. Very informative.

Blake
WA

[CEwriter]

We live to serve . . .

L

[coopers]

I posted a question regarding those new Kobelco blade runners since I see them A LOT now ove rin the excavator forum....

Blake
WA

[triaxle]

I have had two 4 X 4 JD tractor/ loaders. JD financing is really great. They keep sending you letters that say, "yo Bob, you're in a disaster area, wanna take 3 months off payments with no penalty?"
The tractors were quite reliable and everyone enjoyed operating them.
On a 5400 tractor, the loader bucket folded while loading rip rap and Deere replaced it, curiously enough they replaced it with an API ( new hollands aftermarket bucket manufacturer).

I bought a used D5 in 1994. A week after I bought it I turned the brake adjusting nut and hit bottom on the right side [ no brake left, no adjustment left]. I called Cat and mentioned that I thought it was a little tacky to sell equipment with worn out brakes. They agreed. I got a clutch and brake job and there was no billing ever!
I recently got a 320 engine rebuild because the engine was using more oil than Cat allows.
Cat does take care of the customers. I am located between the Atlanta Cat, Greenville, SC Cat, Asheville, NC Cat and Bryson City, NC Cat. That helps because there are overnight delivery boxes from each of them within 40 miles and one three blocks away.
In spite of all this we're looking at a komatsu 61 dozer now as a cost effective alternative to a 6m.

Happy Shopping, its spring!

[9420pullpan]

in regards to coopers ? i was out in vegas and sat in a bladerunner. out of all the bas that i had sat in that day it was the best one of them all. i talked with the kobelco rep and he said that b/c of the blade the put bigger final drives on it to increase the torque. i would definately demo one and see how well it pushes. if i was gonna by an excavator with a blade thats the one i would choose. the blade actually has wings on the side of the blade that fold back. i have never ran a kobelco but i have herd that they are very nice machines! the blade is very well build looks auhful strong. it looks like they actually put some thought in to the design of this machine. also notice the rounded track shoes that would help in the turning.

[coopers]

Very nice looking machine! Yeah, the blade does look very well built and like I've said, I see them around more. I wish I could find an equipment showing like that here in Washington!!! :Banghead
Is there a website to look at to see where the next shows are at?


Blake
WA

[Cat420]

I have always loved the way the Bladerunners looked. My only complaint is that they are too big. The smaller companies that might buy this kind of combination probably don't do big enough projects for that size machine. I know that our business is too small to use one, but I would love an excavator with a six way blade. A Komatsu Pc 100 or 120 sized machine might get more interest than that size (around 40,000lb if I remember correctly).

[CascadeScaper]

I second what 420 said, that machine is too big for the average joe. That's what I don't understand, just about anyone running an excavator of that size more than likely is on a large site and chances are, they have a dozer already. I've spent some time working on a slope in the last couple days with our 303CR and I've decided that the excavator I buy when I start my excavation business in a few years is going to have a blade, maybe not a Kobelco Bladerunner, but a 312CL with the blade. Works wonders for levelling yourself up when working on slopes and definately reduces the pucker factor. The 6 way blade is definately an intriguing feature.

[coopers]

Well, the ED150 BLADERUNNER is a "120" class excavator at least I thought it was. Around 27,000lbs. 40,000lbs is a 200 size, that's huge! :spaz Well not huge but it's big. I'm not too sure though just how often a blade comes in handy on an excavator....I have had one time a customer call and ask us if our JD 120's had a blade on it. He wanted to run trees down with them. :( I personally probably wouldn't buy one, I would just buy an excavator w/o a blade. Not that big of a hassle to rent a dozer. On a mini they are handy. I wish our 121-3's had 6 way blades.

Blake
WA

[CEwriter]

The ED150 weighs 35,270 lbs., according to this Kobelco Web site

http://www.kobelcoamerica.com/products/products_series_detail.asp?Reg=NA&RL=ENNA&NavID=000004724403&line=000004792103

If you click on the ED150 model numbers, it takes you to a page from which you can download a .pdf of the product brochure.

It's powered by a 94-hp Isuzu. Lifting capacity (over the idlers at a 20-foot radius) is 7,070 lbs., arm-crowd force is 12,570 lbs. and bucket digging force is 19,000 lbs. While it weighs a bit more, the ED150 looks as if it performs like a Cat 314C or a Komatsu PC138USLC (around 31,500 lbs).

L

PS: You can work up a decent spec comparison at www.spec-check.com

[CascadeScaper]

They need to make a Bladrunner in the 120 class, maybe even the 80 class, that would be nice. I would really like a 308CR in a few years as well, a machine like that with a 6 way blad would be awesome.