Ease & Longevity of Cat M series

[WILDCAT]

I would like to hear from any operators who are running the Cat M series grader on pavement work, doing tight final trim tolerances, also if anyone has experienced problems with thier M series machines.
Be it 12M, 140M, 160M, 14M, 16M or 24M.

Regards
WILDCAT
Keep it under the red and the tolerances tight!

[Countryboy]

Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums WILDCAT! :drinkup

[WILDCAT]

Countryboy,
Thankyou for the welcome. As we say in Australia, Cheers Mate!
Regards
WILDCAT

[Cory76]

On our demo the hydraulic fan motor was leaking and the salesman said that they were having problems with them, other than that just cold weather issues, but they say that have solved them with a lighter hyd oil.Can't help you with the pavment work as we have a thick layer of snow on top of ours:(

[jhsdks010100]

The major issues I am aware of are leadtime and oh its missing a steereing wheel. Cat must think we are all gaming geeks to run this heap

[jhsdks010100]

The major issues I am aware of are leadtime and oh its missing a steereing wheel. Availability is the big issue who wants to wait over a year for a grader.

[MUDSLINGERS]

We got a new 120M, I am not the operator of it but my uncle is and we had it two weeks and the transmission went out! All we were doing was some final grading on a pad we were doing for EPA. Got it back today and I ran it draining some ditches and it still has a shifting problem. It hesitates when you put it in gear, now.

[Countryboy]

Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums jhsdks010100! :drinkup

[WILDCAT]

G'day Guys,

A company close to where I am working has just purchased a 140M. I am told they are having problems with intergrating the topcon mm system.

Has anyone got any thoughts?

Regards,

WILDCAT

P.S. Thanks for your input.

[satmike]

I am on day 7 running a 140m. It gets better every day. oh yea a little background. I have about 30,000 hours in G's and H's for a paving contractor in Salt Lake. To me the hardest things to get used to are,
1. everything I used to do with my left hand i now do with my right.
2. Backing up, articulating backing takes some getting used to, no 6th gear backing yet, but the return to center is nice.
No finishing yet (tomorrow) just bankrun and curb grade.
It's going to take a little more time to get used to but I think it will be real nice.
THey are putting a Trimble automatic system on it today so I ran an H for a while and it already seems like a dinasor.
M ore info as I get more used to it
Later Mike

[satmike]

Wildcat I'll let you know how they are in tight areas. My company does a lot of real small tight jobs, at least I have been in pretty wide open so far.
Later Mike

[elirock83]

I don't run one, nor will i most likely ever. I have a buddy who works for a cat dealer and when cat gets busy they just shove stuff out the door and have mech's fix them. He was at the decatur il plant where they make these machines, 40t to 100? ton trucks, and some scrapers. That plant is so busy if they have problems with a machine they just put in a yard and pay the dealer to come and fix it. The dealer rotates the help because its a 12hr day 6 days a week. There is no less than 2 and usually 3 mech's there.

He has told me they are an excellent machine to run. But an absolute horror to work on. Any engine or trans. problems and you have to jerk the cab off it. Has alot of other horror stories i can't remember now. I know here locally they must be proud of them because deere has been selling more graders than cat

[satmike]

Got the grader back with the Trimble system on it and it works great. Finished a subdivision today and the tracer for cutting edges worked great, much better than on my last H, but that was 10 years old. the slope control works great also. Everything seems much more accurate and the interface to the hydrolics is much smoother. It gets better and easier every day. Roaded it down a very narrow road with lots of crown and potholes, that wasn't that much fun.
Later Mike

[GPSGrader]

Heres the deal with the M graders in my opinion: I've spent just over 500 hours on a 12M. I first learned to operate a grader like every one else with the traditional pattern. I loved the levers from day one, never a complaint. I finally got the 12M and was very excited. Brand new grader, how many times does one get this opportunity? Its a really "neat" machine. Lots of buttons and screens. HOWEVER, I hate to say it but I've been rather disappointed with Caterpillar's machine. And i'm a cat guy...all the way. lets see, i'm still waiting on cat to come correct the joystick steering alignment. Its 9 deg. to the left of center. The pedals are just not smooth like a G or H model. Inching is much more difficult. I've about got it now but its taken a long time. Almost like starting over with a grader. The engine and transmission are computer regulated. Theres a delay for the computer to "think" through whether its ok to go between 1st and 2nd gear. Sooo irritating running 12-14 hours a day. Between certain gears it will NOT shift smooth. The engine also doesn't have near the lugging power of the older larger displacement engines. It took a very short time to learn the controls but thats always the easy part anyway. With the joysticks you can move more functions at the same time but it can be difficult to, for example, twist for the circle and not push or pull for the lift cylinder. My point is that it's easy to unintentionally move the blade or tractor. The lift cylinder speed is not what it should be. Its no problem lift or lower the blade a lot, but to move it just a little, takes a lot of practice. On a H grader, no prob, just leak that valve a little for a 1/8 inch. On an M, if you wobble that joystick it'll go down 2 inches.
I hate to talk about my new tractor so bad, but I really expected better performance from cat. Its comfortable, visibility is great, more horsepower, but all the electronic stuff isn't better than the older ones. I wish I had my old 140H back now. I guess they just worked too well too long.

[GPSGrader]

[QUOTE=WILDCAT;76175]G'day Guys,

A company close to where I am working has just purchased a 140M. I am told they are having problems with intergrating the topcon mm system.


We have the topcon mmGPS system on our 12M and finally have everything going right. one thing is that cat has to unlock/enable the auto control function with their laptop. It will depend on whether your grader was purches with the ARO package. (accugrade ready option) One thing is for sure: there are many ways to create errors in your grade when using this system, but if everything is set correctly it'll put it on the money. You have to tune the valve gains and offsets according to your working ground speed and material type. Can be a real headache. And if you get around some trees you're screwed because the sats lose signal. But by far the most disappointing part of using the GPS and laser system is that you cannot lean your wheels or move the blade tip without grade information being altered. the wheel lean will just throw slope off a little bit. These new machines and systems have their advantages, like fast grading, but come with side effects.

[WILDCAT]

G'day Guys

GPSGrader I have been most interested in your comments about your new 12M cat grader. Like you I'm a CAT guy as well. The frustrations that you are feeling are also felt in Australia.

The plant that the machines are built in for the Australian market is based in Brazil and not to put too fine a point on it, they need modifications done to them before they go out to their owners. I would be interested to know where the American units are built.

Talking to one operator, they are waiting for update files from Caterpillar so the CPU's can be reflashed to help with the shifting problems. I must say I hear more negative things about the M, but I have faith in Caterpillar that they will iron out these problems.

Regards,

WILDCAT

Keep the tolerances tight and keep it under the red.

[sdPete]

A reply to GPSGrader post #14....

With the hours you have run your observations are right on. Keep at it, you will get there.

The steering needs to be calibrated, Cat guy has to come out hook his computer up and go for a long drive. He said the 140M here was not too far off, I thought it did work better after he was done. Once you learn the center steering detent it is frustrating to not be able to use it, although you can articulate the machine slightly to attempt straight ahead operation with the stick on center detent. If you run articulated the detent is not usable and I find it takes more concentration to run the stick.

Pedal function is what you say it is, the machine can be made to do the job but it is hard to unlearn old habits.

Joystick movements relative to blade response is not comparable to older machines, it takes eye-hand coordination. This is like having to learn it over again, not easy when you thought you knew how to do it.

Transmission shifting, there is a menu option on the side display which allows calibration of the transmission, I think it is called "FILL". You run that when the machine is at operating temperature, suggested at the end of the work day, takes about 20 minutes. Put the machine in park, activate the procedure, let it sit and do its thing, the engine will run at various speeds, when it is done the clutch settings should be updated see if the transmission performance is better.

You note strong points of comfort, visibility, power, lots of advantages. You know those because of previous machine experience. A new operator with no previous machine experience would likely have little issue with the electronic controls, so you need to realize that experience does have a disadvantage for you.

Good grief, do I sound like I write propaganda for CAT?l......

[Tigerotor77W]

I would be interested to know where the American units are built.

Some (or all) North American units are built in Decatur, IL.

[equipment fan]

Some (or all) North American units are built in Decatur, IL.

and for europe,anybody know where they are produced?

[Tigerotor77W]

and for europe,anybody know where they are produced?

Should also be out of Decatur or Brazil. Decatur, I believe, is the main source, with Brazil feeding in units if capacity demands it.

I could be wrong, though...

[satmike]

I agree with about everything that has been said. the steering not being straight in the detent position is very frustrating. The clutch is very hard to take off slow and accurate. We have a couple of newer H's and the clutch feels like the M as compared to my 10 year old H witch was very smooth. Very little to no feel to the blade lift and drop. I have a about 120 hrs on it now and it is getting much easier to run. I'm getting much better at circleing, blade sliding and blade curl, don't have to think about that stuff any more. I have been on a very large subdivision the last week or so with a very sandy road base so the feel has been real tough. If I am not real careful with the delay in the forward to reverse shifting as to not hit anything. Cat called and wants to come out and do some upgrades and I hope that will solve some of my issues. i got back in a H the other day and there are no creature comforts there any more, but i remember i felt the same way when I went from a G. I love the cab and comfort of the M and hope i can get used to the rest of it. I can't wait to do some of the small tight drainage parking lots that we do. That will be interesting. More as time goes on as there is no turning back now.
Later Mike

[WILDCAT]

G'day Guys,

I am so interested in the feedback regarding the new M series.

When I was first on this website I was so keen to see all the pictures of the new M series grader

Being an owner of a H series 2, I am now looking forward to spy pictures of a 140 M series 2.

Regards,

WILDCAT

[WILDCAT]

What do you think?

My mates & I have been discussing about the new M series grader. Being owner operators we lack confidence in the M series.

If not caterpillar, what are we left with? Owing to the fact that in America you guys receive the new models before we do in Australia, what are the new model graders like?

I haven't seen the new Deere G series grader yet. A mate of mine quite likes the new Volvo series.

Deere Deere me! Does this mean in years to come I'll be calling myself WILDDEERE?

I know one thing, whatever I'll be on, in years to come, will be made/designed in America.

Regards,

WILDCAT

[MKTEF]

A few of us has posted some pics here of different M'modells, 140M, AWD, 160M and 160M AWD.
And there is some feedback by both operators, and what i have gotten from my informants.(both operators and salesmenn):D
Just check out the threads regarding M's here:)
There is also some pics of a 160M in the thread Norway pics.
Might be a modell showing all extras available....

[alco]

The only M series machines I have really been around are our 24Ms. I can tell you one thing the operators don't like about them, they don't like it at all when the steering crashes and the machine stops steering. When this happens, the machine simply won't turn the wheels either way until you shut it down and reboot the system. To do that, you have to shut down all of the power, not something you want to deal with in the middle of a turn across a haul road in the middle of the night.

Brian

[WILDCAT]

G'day guys,

My opinion is, better to be sort things out sooner than later, before Caterpillars M series looses too much market share.

Regards,

WILDCAT

[Ross]

24M: Steering problems, Brake Problems, Power problems. Recent Fire Problems!

Fine technology needs to be "Fine" Tuned so give them time.

A couple of brand new 140M's in the yard at this time. I done some Upgrades on an older 140 and there not to bad to work on. Mainly Software problems.

Ross

[Eric]

Spent the day on our 16M and loved it. We havn't had any of the problems I see here. Our steereing has crashed once BUT the steering alarm went off with ample time to get out of the road before one of our new 793's ran me over! Over all I love the M series still. Aside from the slide shim problems I had mentioned earlier some where on here, I would take this M over an H or G anyday.

[satmike]

I,m at 400 hrs in the 140m. It's getting really comfortable. cat came out and fixed the steering, so now it drives straight (well almost) when its centered so cutting edges has gotten much easier. I lost an injector today, We called Cat and they already had a job open on this grader and had upgraded injectors ordered. They knew I had a problem before I did. Theres defintly no looking back now.
Later Mike

[alco]

Spent the day on our 16M and loved it. We havn't had any of the problems I see here. Our steereing has crashed once BUT the steering alarm went off with ample time to get out of the road before one of our new 793's ran me over! Over all I love the M series still. Aside from the slide shim problems I had mentioned earlier some where on here, I would take this M over an H or G anyday.

You're lucky that the steering alarm goes off before it crashes, not the case on ours. It usually doesn't go off at all, and when it does, it's when the event occurs and it's too late to prepare for it.

Brian

[GPSGrader]

[QUOTE=satmike;85443]I,m at 400 hrs in the 140m. It's getting really comfortable. cat came out and fixed the steering, so now it drives straight (well almost)

Hey Mike, I know you didn't ask for suggestions but I'm runnin a M too. What I do to get the steering exactly straight is adjust the wheel lean. get it up to ~15mph and barely bump the wheel lean to find true straight.

[GPSGrader]

[QUOTE=satmike;85443]I,m at 400 hrs in the 140m. It's getting really comfortable. cat came out and fixed the steering, so now it drives straight (well almost)

Hey Mike, I know you didn't ask for suggestions but I'm runnin a M too. What I do to get the steering exactly straight is adjust the wheel lean. get it up to ~15mph and barely bump the wheel lean to find true straight.

[oilburner350]

CAT may be taking our 140M Back. It was the first one in the State of Michigan. We took delivery in November of 2007. The main issue was the steering would default into the emergency system and over run the alternator. Not only that, but the emergency steer was a super steer and it would throw the operator in the ditch. The opertor was then worried about restarting it to reset the steering for fear that the batteries would be dead. They made some pressure adjustments, and it seemed to correct that problem. The down side is that the engine started missing around this time. Now about 5 months later the engine still has a miss to it. An engineer, a sales rep, a district rep, and a mechanic were all at the county garage yesterday. They spent most of the day trying to fix this thing. Nobody wants to run it because it's unsafe. CAT amy want to rethink their M series.

[sdPete]

The 140M here was one of 2 sold out of Sioux Falls last fall. In my opinion it has done quite well, 1100 hrs on it. Some updates done, A/C repair, door gaskets.... Steering just takes practice, I have been doing gravel lately and running for miles articulated, can't use the center detent, learn to keep running straight with slight movements of the stick. There are going to be machines with issues, maybe we're lucky. Seems like the first run of any model change is somewhat an extension of field testing. Lots of sensors and three different computers to function in harmony, plus service departments in learning mode themselves.

Three years from now the discussions will probably deal with other issues. Graders haven't seen this big of a change since who knows when, it will take a while for the market to accept it.

[GPSGrader]

Good points. I've got 1100 hrs on mine also and had similar issues. The detent is annoying and I'd like them to take it out. Probably an easy fix, but I haven't got the balls yet to take those joysticks apart! I've got one door that is not true and the glass keeps breaking. Today they finally admitted the door needs replacing.

oilburner, I definitely think safety is a concern. Its easy to unintentionally move hydraulics. I get a little tense when I get on the road. The steering is designed to slow down after, I think, 15mph. Part of the learning curve is training yourself to know steering behavior at all ground speeds. ^&*!
I see a few advantages of stick steering: easier tight turn-arounds, faster maneuvering. BUT the wheel was so reliable and secure! I always thought if used correctly the high-ratio wheel made the grader precise.

Still feel like I'm not as smooth overall with the M. I play piano every night, I understand the meaning of feel and touch. But even after software adjustments, those lift cylinders are wayyy to sensitive for my approval. I showed the Cat rep when I got on a 330D b.hoe how really fine control/slow movement was so simple to accomplish. With the M, I have to really focus on tiny hand movements. I've developed a habit of moving the stick with my fingers and it helps but makes for sore hands.

Anyone ever go home feeling like somthings been taken away?
I think its just a motor grader man who can be a hard to please. Everybody knows one. :)

[Grader4me]

Although I've never operated one of these, this thread is certainly an interesting read.

With the M, I have to really focus on tiny hand movements. I've developed a habit of moving the stick with my fingers and it helps but makes for sore hands.

I would have a real hard time with that. I thought this new design was supposed to enhance operator comfort? I'm not judging here because I've never run one so I don't have the right. I'm sure the bugs will be taken out eventually. Great thread guys!

[oilburner350]

Our 140M has about 950 hours on it. I will agree that it does take some getting used to. Before we purchased it CAT brought the simulator to our garage. All the grader operators ran the simulator prior to us buying it. They liked the simulator, but when the grader arrived it was a different beast. We have also had trouble with the steering when pulling shoulders. That grader skimmed more asphalt that the two H models combined.

I agree three years down the road there may be other issues that pop up. CAt said that 70-80% of the parts used in the new M model were a new design. That is ALOT of redesigned parts.

Two thing that I forgot to metntion yesterday. The engine mysteriously eats 1-1.5 gallons of antifreeze every once in a while. No rhyme or reason. The Cab had to be adjusted as well. It was off center and tilted upwards when the thing was delivered.

[Grader4me]

By the way oilburner350...Welcome to the forum :drinkup

[satmike]

I'm at about 1000 hrs now and heres what's up. A new set of injectors, left hand joy stick ( reverse went out, no replaceable parts $2000 parts) AC (hose had holes in it where it ran through the articulation) pump that runs the brakes and fan.
I like it a lot better than G's & H's for all the creature comforts. My biggest compliant now is the way the tranny up shifts and downshifts.
95% of what I do is finishing for asphalt and it is definatly harder to grade with. I had a 98 H that was very smooth and had a whole lot of feel( I put 16,000 hrs on that grader) and I would get in our newer H's and thought they were jumpy. Now I get in the same new H's and they seem pretty easy to run.
i still would rather run the M. I cut a lot of concrete edges and I no longer have much problem with the steering when leaning on the edge.
No looking back now.
Later Mike

[Northart]

Well, I finally got my 1st taste of a M series grader. Ran a Cat 14M for the past month.

Brand new 2008 model. A rental for finishing a job.

Anyway, sure has the bugs in it.

Align Steer Lever message and code kept coming up.

If you don't get the lever aligned then it won't move. Took sometimes 15-20 minutes to do it. Finally seemed to get the right way to do, it. which is real,real slow movements of the stick.

I thought that the steering was overly sensitive, even after a month I found it hard to steer a straight line. Sure missed the H series grader.

Had a Brake pressure low message , came on. Took 2 days to solve that. Machine would not start. A failed relay was the problem.

Then there was the Parking Brake message problem. Everytime you got out of the blade for a few minutes, setting the parking brake 1st, the alarm would sound. The parking brake would not release. So I had to shut the machine off, turn the master switch off for one minute to reboot, then fiddle some more and finally it would restart. This would take another 15-20 minutes.

Anyway, I found that I had to watch the moldboard constantly, too see if it moved. As there is no sound , or feel , like on the H series.

The inching pedal, I never could get it to move smoothly, just lurched or jerked ! I tried all kinds of techniques to discover a movement to make a smooth take off. Impossible. Shifting was the same . Jerky .

The leans wheel buttons sure are mounted too high up, hard to reach with the thumb, I got to using my index finger instead. Need a thumb 1/2" longer . LOL :)

The center console is wider, can't see much of the inner circle, like when approaching hubs, or light cans, on the airport job.

The wiper, heater, fan control switches are mounted overhead , in a inconvenient location. Got to look up from your work, to find them. Not down by your hand on the side where it was so convenient, like on the H series.

There is no convenient hand throttle, just 2 switches on a side panel , where you have to look , not feel, to find.

The corner of the engine compartment sheet metal hides partly, the view, of the ripper. I found looking in the mirrors was a easier way.

By the way I do like the heated mirrors. They work great, on frosty mornings. :)

Just a note to operators, this new technology takes more than a few days to get used too.

So , that is my impressions of the new M series. Just wonder how it will fare this cold Arctic winter.

[roadrunner]

I still am wondering why Cat does not run their prototypes in Canada where we have the most extreme conditions, like say -40c and tons of snow.Also I don't understand why they released the M with so many mechanical bugs, surely they had the same things going wrong when it was in proto-stages?Does Cat not get a wide range of operators to give their own info on new machines before they put it together?Like maybe operator comfort?
I still think Cat is goingthe right way with the joysticks but make sure it works first or they will have a lot of DIE HARD CAT GUYS maybe wanting to switch to another make.(or maybe not!!!:D)
Hope someone has some answers for my questions!

[ovrszd]

I agree with Roadrunner that you would think CAT would have done better testing prior to release. But none of the others do. The auto industry doesn't. The Ag machinery departments don't. Everyone seems to think it's alright to make the purchasing customer do the testing for them.

I also agree that the M is the way of the future. CAT put a lot of their reputation on the line for this product. You would think they would fear the loss of loyalty if the product line isn't up to standard. But then I believe that CAT takes their market share for granted and truly believes they will suffer no loss of that share. We'll see.

For the past year we've read nothing but good reviews of this product on this website. Well, let's say 90% good reviews. Now that percentage is changing. Either the product is showing us it's issues or the operators are over the "honeymoon" and more honestly reporting their opinions. It's human nature to say our new machine is the greatest thing ever and then change that opinion when the new wears off. :rolleyes:

[MKTEF]

I agree with Roadrunner that you would think CAT would have done better testing prior to release. But none of the others do. The auto industry doesn't. The Ag machinery departments don't. Everyone seems to think it's alright to make the purchasing customer do the testing for them.:rolleyes:

OVRSZD, you must be talking about the US autoindustry:)

Up in nothern Sweden(Arjeplog) there is a special remote area with all kind of high tech stuff for auto testing.
This proving ground is privatly owned, but used by all the big auto manufacturers in Europe.(winter testing)
Here they got racing tracks on ice, gravel roads for miles and miles and nearly no people around.
Many spy shots of new car models is taken in the area.;)
They show up with a number of new cars and a couple of support cars, driving from Europe and up, doing tests in sweden, going into Norway and back south to the factory.
Cars get hidden in hotell garages and such, if u show a camera, they are gone in seconds..;)

Volvo, Scania and Sisu have special vehicles running as test vehicles on the roads for years before the solutions is in normal production.
Their local serviceshops report about customers having trucks going in special conditions and then they make u a deal.
Owner gets a "special" engine/solution in their truck, factory pays the fuel u use extra compared to the normal engine. The engine compartement is locked and sealed.
U get a garantee on the vehicle, if it breaks down its repaired within a number of hours. Special mecanics show up,download the "brain", change the engine and seal the enginecompartement.;)
On engine tests u are not allowed to raise the cabin..

Sometimes they offer u a new truck with a old cabin.(the current modell)

There is constantly a number of trucks out in the market as test vehicles.;)

A friend of my dad had a Volvo tractor that he bought in sweden in the 80's with a 5-600 hp engine in.
That truck was not allowed to be exported from Sweden....
When the pistons melted due to overheat/overload, the owner got new ones for free from Volvo.:cool:

[Northart]

Here is some pix of the graders I ran recently. A Cat 14H for 2 years and a Cat 14M .

Both were on Alaska Airport jobs.

The Cat 14H is backfilling some erosion on a 4:1 slope. Hence the uphill moldboard angle. It is the clearest pix I have.

The Cat 14M sure blocks the vision forward. It's wider and higher. Same with the rear view.

The Cat 14H has forward ,narrow nice clean lines. I can see the front axle. The rear has good views.

The 14M has a tubular frame and the Cat 14H has an I beam frame.

[ovrszd]

Although I'm sure I can go to CAT's website and get this answer, I thought it would be more interesting to hear it from operators.

What's the difference in a 14M and a 140M??

[Northart]

The difference is HP and size physically. 2 different machines.

[GPSGrader]

1500 hrs down a 12m. Last 2 days have been tough. Starting to have a lot of wrist pain from running this thing. Cat can have this damn thing back. Big Cat fan talking.

[Bellboy]

I have said this before. I really applaude Cat for trying, but they are really doiung some thing risky, coz if they can't sort out these problems, the other manufactureres like deere and volvo, who are slowly working towards this idea of joystick machines are going to come up and steal the market from cat the momont they finally fix their problems, coz everyone will either want to go back to traditional graders, even if they are electro hydraulic, or to this joystick idea, which competitors will get right from learning from cats mistakes and problems. Not saying that the M was a mistake.