new Deere controls?

[plowking740]

I was just flipping through some pictures from Conexpo on the Deere site, and I came across this picture. It shows a new 'style' of levers for a deere grader. (I doubt that the V R head gear is included.)

has any one heard/seen any info on this?

[Grader4me]

Wow!! Different manufactures seem to be developing there own style of controls. Makes you wonder who is going to wind up with the best. Good to hear from you again plowking

[Northart]

Interesting to see other control concepts .

Now with "work by wire controls" , maybe everyone can have a replacement module to carry with them as they go from one brand machine to another.

Just pull out the existing module and plug in your own customized module. LOL :)

The industry finally came around to standardized grader controls, now running off again, trying to seek a sales gimmick to assure brand loyalty, or some competitive edge.

The parameters of machine design has been captured by manufacturers, with the last remaining improvement to exploit , is operator efficiency. For many years that was largely ignored by manufacturers, the operator had to adapt to the controls, now , the reverse.

Building controls for the human that operates. :)

[Geno795]

Those are the new controls Deere is working on, have the same "antler rack" pattern as current graders, without the effort required to run them. They are trying to improve upon the Cat joystick shortcomings and not stay with the same old. You can steer with the joystick or the steering wheel, at any time.
Might become the new standard for graders. It is awesome because the good old experienced operators and novices can both run them. Deere engineers and marketing people are trying to listen to what operators want, not shove some new controls down their throat. The good thing is they will still offer manual "antler rack" controls if you want them. Geno

[Northart]

I've spent a good part of my entire life running graders . 38 years in fact on all heavy equipment.

I know that there is room for improvement ! I've noticed that sometimes the shortest cycle time between reponse, takes a long time to create. I.E. Operator input !

Location of levers, dexterity of the Operator, recognizing the time lag, and need to lead, or wait ! For proper tool action response.

This is where Operator Experience and skill anticipates job site conditions visually, that NO computer, will NEVER overcome, much as the engineers dream !

The Human element will always be there, even if it is remote controlled.

Got to say something about physical effort , 3# controls ?? Too much ?? Whats next for the weaklings of society ???

It takes 3# to pull the trigger of the average rifle.

Just wonder somedays where this technology is leading us .

John Deere will never lead the way in grader sales with their ideas. There are many reasons for this . From a lifetime of use, running graders.

My thoughts. :)

[Prep]

When operating a grader,doing fine grade work, I like the fact that the controls offer up some resitence as my hands and fingers touch them. I just don't know that consentrating on touching the small joy sticks ,that I see on the Deere prototype, would be easier than resting my hand on conventional control levers and moving what ever combination I need at a given time.

That being said I will reserve further judgement until I can go "hands on" with this control system.:)

[Geno795]

Northart,
Have you run a D series Deere? You say Deere will never lead in graders and they are building exactly what you say you want. They have manual controls, the old guys who have run them for 38 yrs are just what they are targeting. These new controls are an OPTION (not standard) for the new kids on the block (like me) who are not tuff old buggers like you. Run a NEW (not old) Deere and tell me what you think. Maybe you have run one, if so I would like to know what you didnt like about it. They have more than tripled grader sales since 2005 when the D series came out and the good old boys like you are buying them. They put every effort into listening to operators. Geno

[plowking740]

I dont want to bring down any one, but I have the ...privilage to run a brand new 160 h cat and a brand new 772d deere, with full gps blade control, and will have to say that the deere still needs to blade a few more miles of road to match the cat. Sorry.

The cabs are smaller, seats are smaller, Deere has almost twice as many grease nipples, the brass in the blade slide dosent last near as long as the cat, the Ripper/ scaraffier would build up with mud/clay, and lay on the the cross bar in the frame, and when you raised it, it would lift whatever was on it into the grill, bending it. The blade dose not lift high enough, a PIG on fuel, ( two good days of pushing in a cat compaired to 1, 1 1/2 in deere. ) the 'feel' in the deere is not the same the older 140's i ran or the 160.


The best thing I like about the deere is the Transmission and 6 wd options. Trans is smooth shifting at any gear and I like the 16 different options on the front end. it can be very aggressive it you need it.

these are just a few of the things that come to mind, I know that its not much, but when you are compairing the too machines, it is a lot.
I dont consider my self an old hand at these things,(37, with 14 yrs in a grader) but I think that If I had the choice between my 772 with 2500 hrs and using the old 140H wh have with almost 10 000, im gonna take the cat.

ok im done ranting have a good day.

[catken]

Why do all the mfg's always try and copy most of Cat's stuff? Just like these new Cat blades and the D7E-they'll knock the doors down and try and copy it! Just watched this over all the years around the iron.

[Northart]

Hello Geno 795,

You must work for John Deere , or a dealer. As I very seldom see people promote JD graders. Especially operators.

In Alaska there are no new or late John Deere graders that I know of, "D" series ??

There are quite a few old JD 570's laying around, junked out in the villages. And elsewhere. Like the military. From the 80's when lot of Gov't money was floating around. They were the cheapest then.

Then Champion graders became prevalent for the Muni's and villages because they again were cheap. But always broke down. High maintenance.

Finally these (Gov't) people getting it figured out, that to maintain roads, airports, they got to have equipment that works.

Nowadays you see mostly Cat 160H graders around. The Cat 160H seems to fit the maintenance requirements for utilization and availabiltiy .

Me I have not run a Deere "D" series nor wish to.

I 've spent a lifetime running Caterpillar equipment and have been satisfied to make a living doing so. Construction contractors always owned and used Caterpillar Graders. 99+% of them still do here.

Maybe its the old and familiar that makes me comfortable knowing its capacities and limits , just like myself.

I already see the generational gap on this forum even, people enamored with the new electronic gadgetry. Not that it is bad, but the shift or trend is going that way.

Just like it was mostly cable dozers,excavators, that gave way to the hydraulics.

John Deere can target me all they want for grader sales, they are wasting their time.

They make good agriculture equipment , and they should stick with that in my opinion.

[plowking740]

Why do all the mfg's always try and copy most of Cat's stuff? Just like these new Cat blades and the D7E-they'll knock the doors down and try and copy it! Just watched this over all the years around the iron.

somone has to lead the pack, but Ill admit, Cat dosent set the benchmark on all construction equipment.

[Tigerotor77W]

Someone is darned lucky to have gotten a pic; I wasn't allowed to take any. The engineers on the machine were even more picky about who went up there to look around than the Cat reps on the D7E were.

[farm_boy]

Why do all the mfg's always try and copy most of Cat's stuff? Just like these new Cat blades and the D7E-they'll knock the doors down and try and copy it! Just watched this over all the years around the iron.

Probably the same reason that Cat copies anything that they are lagging PINS in. Take a look at their first backhoes(copy of Case and JD), first skid steers(copy of Bobcat) and current small dozers(copy of JD). If that doesn't work they exit the business......ie the ag tractor and combine market. Not bagging on Cat here....simply stating a fact. It is sales and marketing 101 to copy or better the market leader. If that doesn't work and the company is still bleading money....the good business decision is to exit. Take a look at any heavy equipment brand and you can see an example where they entered and exited the market due to certain circumstances. Again, you can take a look at ANY major manufacturer out there and if they are not benchmarking their major competition and what their competition's customers want they are never going to grow their market share. The interesting thing here in regards to graders is that it appears that Cat has stepped out on a limb and alienated its main audience on the grader....the old grader hand.

From the operators that I have talked with, the M is great if all you are doing is grading roads and going straight doing two functions at once. Put that same machine on a busy contruction site working in tight quarters around finished concrete performing 4-5 functions at the same time. It is going to take significant time in the seat to reach the level of production that an experienced grader hand has with the traditional lever layout. The M series has been known for nearly two years. If every grader manufacturer was truly out to copy Cat don't you think that someone would have shown something similar at the show? Maybe it isn't as great as the marketing and engineering team thought it to be.

[catken]

I'm in agreement with you. Cat pretty well speaks for itself. We've run all the other stuff and always go back to Cat. That M Series blade will be the same as the G Series when it come out. It'll take about a week for a good operator to get onto it and the drivers will never learn. Been through all the flavors and always go back to Cat. As a matter of fact, on out Kamoatsu hoes we always use Cat pins and U/C. We always put Cat U/C on everyting because of the life we'd get out of them. And yes Northart, I think about everyone on this site probably makes their living off of Cat or will sooner or later.

[Geno795]

Northart,
No, I just really like the new Deere and lots of people are saying it is good in our area here in Peoria, IL. Imagine that. Just wanted to know your opinion. Run what you like. Equipment does change and I will stick up for whatever is good. Thanks. Geno

[Northart]

Hello Geno795,

Just wonder where you and that JD Grader will be 10-20 years from now . Will it survive the test of time ?

After a lifetime of Operating equipment, I ask that with some experience.

I just wonder now, about the future Operator health problems. Repetitive Motion Injury, ala Carpal Tunnel Syndrone. With all this hand and finger motion control effort.

Times sure have changed, from 25# controls to mere ounces. From Freezing you ass off or burning up from hot engines, to modern air conditioned cabs, with constant shirtsleeve temperature. From the shrill deafening engine & exhaust noise , fumes, to living room quietness.

From arm waving,screaming, bosses and grade checkers, to viewing a job site plan, on the computer screen.

Quite remarkable change, over my lifetime.

Throughout it, many , many different manufacturer's have come and gone.

Caterpillar is still here after 100 years.:)

[roadrunner]

Why is everyone arguing over second place graders?(Cat and Deere).
We all know Volvo is #1 out there do we not?
I think we got a liitle off topic here but had to set the record straight!

[Grader4me]

Times sure have changed, from 25# controls to mere ounces. From Freezing you ass off or burning up from hot engines, to modern air conditioned cabs, with constant shirtsleeve temperature. From the shrill deafening engine & exhaust noise , fumes, to living room quietness.

From arm waving,screaming, bosses and grade checkers, to viewing a job site plan, on the computer screen.

Quite remarkable change, over my lifetime.


Ah...yes indeed..very well said Northart.

[farm_boy]

Caterpillar is still here after 100 years.:)

Remember that John Deere is still here after 171 years:D

Why is everyone arguing over second place graders?(Cat and Deere).
We all know Volvo is #1 out there do we not?
I think we got a liitle off topic here but had to set the record straight!

You kidding....right?:lmao

[Geno795]

Northart,
You are assuming I am young?? I might have as much experience as you do. You are going on past and assumptions, I am basing my comments on facts and the future of our business. You like the old graders, CAT no longer makes the old graders, the H series are GONE! My comments come from my experiences with all makes of graders. I respect your opinion and am thinking that Deere does too. No old time operators command more respect than a good blade hand. Things change. I have graded with knuckle busters and the first Deere electric controls. Didn't like either one of them, but, they will both produce the same finished product, as a new grader, period.

Plowking,
The Deere cabs are smaller maybe than the old H series Cats, but the new M series Cats are way smaller. You are right, small cabs tick me off. You can't talk about 160H if you want to buy a new grader, they are GONE. That is exactly why I like the D series Deere grader, it is more like the old H series Cats than the new Cat is. Which was my original point, Deere listens to us operators better than Cat does. Thanks for letting me part of this discussion.
I respect all opinions and comments.
Thanks Geno

[roadrunner]

Remember that John Deere is still here after 171 years:D



You kidding....right?:lmao

No I am not kidding about the Volvo's.How can anyone compare Cat and Deere to Volvo until you have run all three?Cat and Deere does not have as much power,torque,frame size,component size(cylinders-axles-tandems),cab size(I sure like taking my lunch kit with me in the cab-Volvo even makes a special spot that hold your lunch kit plus when you buy new they give you that free!!!)
Sure don't see Deere or especially CAT doing that!(CAT has a special fee to use their products like their hats and jackets ,nothing free from them!)
Also when cutting dirt or any application related to grading you just cannot move the same amount of material that a Volvo can.(Equivalent sized machines.)
Why is it that Cat and Deere are just finally making changes to their Cabs now?Cat has not changed hardly anything at all for several years along with Deere>They sure were not listening to the operators were they!The thing I hear from any operator is why no one can make a bigger cab with more room!Glad to see Deere improving theirs but why did Cat make theirs even smaller than the H series?So how can one say that CAT thinks about building a machine with operator in mind?( oh I guess you can see better now with their new angled glass cab- to the sides only!)
So when I read all this talk about how good Cat is in their graders I know they have not run or given Volvo a chance.
Let me clarify that I like Deere loaders,faller bunchers,excavators,skidders, and CAT loaders,scrapers, and dozers.
Hope this shows that I am not kidding all the time around here just most of the time!!:wink2

[farm_boy]

roadrunner....I'm not arguing that there are some nice features of the Volvo (and Cat) grader. If you look at the fact and figures, Volvo is a clear #3 in the motorgrader market behind Cat (#1) and Deere (#2). It appears you have had good experience with the Volvo machine. For me personally I have operated all three brands (not an M yet) and when it comes to working a grader on a construction jobsite that you have to make direction changes the last machine I would take is the Volvo. Again I can't speak to the M Cat, but the Deere transmission is truly untouchable for shifting smoothness. No hitting the clutch/inching pedal to feather out the direction change needed. Try doing that in a Volvo without spilling your coffee all over the place!

In regards to cab size, if you are basing your comments on the C-series you should really take a look at the D and G Series. Lots more room and there IS a place for your lunch cooler. In regards to getting a free lunch box with a new machine, 99.9% sure that is the dealer doing that and not the manufacturer. Free hats, belt buckles jackets etc are all on the dealer and is a totally seperate issue from the merits of the equipment itself. In my mind that stuff is pretty minor and doesn't even come into the picture of the purchasing decision for me. Of course that is just me.....;)

[MKTEF]

Ehhh, i bet u havent tried direction changes in the new Volvos...I don't spill any coffee at all.(11-6 transm)
Inching is for starting and stopping, don't need it the rest of the day...
I heard that it is prodused apr 7500 graders a year, apr 3750(50%) Cat, 1750 Volvo(25%) and the others compete about the rest.
And thats world production.
And as Deere is a US marked product, i don't think your numbers apply to the world marked...
Never seen a newer Deere in Europe, Iraq, Kuwait and Afghanistan....(seen real old ones in Europe):-)

[Northart]

Hello MKTEF,

I just was looking at some serial number books the other nite, for Cat graders.

Now that you brought it up, I'll run some numbers that I came up with.

Caterpillar built the Model 12 tandem drive,stiff frame from 1938 to 1968 . They built 54,000 machines as indicated by Serial Numbers.

I see I skipped a time period here of '69-'73. 2 different books. Hhmmn !

Caterpillar built the 12G from 1974-1994 producing 16,000 + machines.

These are just some quick rough numbers, going by serial numbers. Not accurately tabulating , nor checking to see if all numbers were consecutive. This is US Built graders.

Maybe someone else has some more accurate data. Interesting the same.

Hello Geno795,

The Cat H Series graders are still (Presently)out in the field working . :) Same with the Cat G Series graders. And I suspect they will be(Future) for another 20 years.

When they get wore out they just rebuild them over and over. Just like the dozers. These are not throw away machines, like other brands, that are junked.

Eventually the M series will become dominate in the field as time goes by. I might even get to run one, if I stay working past my prime . LOL :) No 70 and 80 year old operators work full time, that I know of.

But on another note, just wonder how long the older generation equipment will be able to work due to the Emmissions laws. Hhmmn !

Maybe it will be all exported to 3rd world nations with less stringent laws.

[MKTEF]

Interresting numbers.
To me it looks like the 12G has 16 000 in 20 years; apr 800 pr year.
The modell 12 is 54 000 in 30 years; 1800 pr year.
And in that time Cat was the major produser...
I don't know if they had any factorys produsing graders other places?

And you are right about the H-modells, they are still in production.
140H and the rest is in production in China and South America? if i am not wrong.
Cat has desided to produse them for the tier II market.(Africa, China, Asia, South America)

I beliewe the G's will be exported to Africa and other "poor" countries when they get traded in by us who demand the best...
Thats what i see in Afghanistan, but there the marked is filled with japanese brands. Very rare to see a Cat, but huge numbers of Komatsu graders.(old ones):-)
The same was in Iraq, nearly no Cat and others but a lot of Kawasaki and Komatsu.
Kuwait by the way was filled with yellow iron...

[MKTEF]

I spent 5 min here:
http://www.ironrecord.com/

I think my numbers on production is not so far from the truth...

4x 14M in 2005, 8X in 2006.
5x 160M in 2004, 31x 2005, 10X 2006, 2007?.
16x 140M in 2006, 2007?
7x 12M 2006, 2007?
7x 120M in 2005, 6x in 2006, 2007?

Get some facts out of that site....

[MKTEF]

For 2006 i found:
Apr 4470 H modells and 55-60 M's prodused by Cat in US and Brazil.

[roadrunner]

roadrunner....I'm not arguing that there are some nice features of the Volvo (and Cat) grader. If you look at the fact and figures, Volvo is a clear #3 in the motorgrader market behind Cat (#1) and Deere (#2). It appears you have had good experience with the Volvo machine. For me personally I have operated all three brands (not an M yet) and when it comes to working a grader on a construction jobsite that you have to make direction changes the last machine I would take is the Volvo. Again I can't speak to the M Cat, but the Deere transmission is truly untouchable for shifting smoothness. No hitting the clutch/inching pedal to feather out the direction change needed. Try doing that in a Volvo without spilling your coffee all over the place!

In regards to cab size, if you are basing your comments on the C-series you should really take a look at the D and G Series. Lots more room and there IS a place for your lunch cooler. In regards to getting a free lunch box with a new machine, 99.9% sure that is the dealer doing that and not the manufacturer. Free hats, belt buckles jackets etc are all on the dealer and is a totally seperate issue from the merits of the equipment itself. In my mind that stuff is pretty minor and doesn't even come into the picture of the purchasing decision for me. Of course that is just me.....;)


You mean the Volvo 11/6 trans. was jerky?Mine sure isn't!
Yes the deere trans. is very smooth also but why do they still have that shift pattern/rap around style shifter --Very annoying!Volvo is just straight back and forth--Very simple!!
Yes I have run the D series Deere machine and from your picture you posted of your machine that sure is a small lunchkit.(rammed down the operators view of the window.)
Where do you CAT M operators put your lunchkits?::confused:

Regarding free Hats, Lunchkits,Thermos,Jackets that does mean alot to me when purchasing machines. Because it goes to show you, that your dealer(that you just paid a quarter million or so to actually gives a xxxx about you and will be there for you with service!!

What did you like about the Volvo machine?Anything in peticular?:beatsme

[Geno795]

Volvo trans is a Deere/Funk unit made in Kansas. It is smooth and the shift pattern is nice in my opinion, only makes sense to me, BUT, the old Cat operators won't touch anything they aren't used to. Geno

[Deas Plant]

Hi, Folks.
I just had a look at the Ironrecord site that MKTEF posted and I can see a few holes in the listings for Cat 12 graders alone without looking at any other models. I didn't see any listings for Cat 12 9K, 8T, S8T, 94C or 70D models.

The 9K's were produced during WW2 and maybe a little later, were U.S. built (to the best of my knowledge) and the only one I operated was ex U.S. Army Engineers.

I think the 8T replaced the 9K and was made in the U.S.. The S8T was the Australian-built version of the 8T, built under license DownUnder by Steelweld. I only got to run one of each.

I think the 94C was the first Australian-built grader from Cat's plant in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia but I open to correction on this and I only got to run one of them too. All of the above were pre 'E' series. I think the 94C was the 'C' series.

The next model that I know of to come from the Australian plant was the 21F, followed by the 17K, both of which are listed on Ironrecord. However, I don't recollect seeing any mention of the 70D series which I understand was the U.S. built version of the Australian-built 17K. I have had U.S. people tell me that there was no such thing as a 17K series Cat 12 grader 'cos they never got to see them. They tend to insist that the 70D followed the 21F. Different countries, different series designations.

I haven't run anything later than a G series Cat, 12G, 140G, 14G and 16G and I liked all of them. I have run a JD670B and thought it wasn't bad but didn't think it was all that good either, especially with that idiotic bass-ackwards trans control.

I have run a 'Kummagutsa' GD825 and I liked it too, particularly the manoeverability - it would turn inside the Cat 14G working on the same site - and the fact that you sit on the back end and the front articulates. It also had a fair amount of grunt and could put it on the ground, especially when the diff locks were working. I think it would have out-worked a Cat 16G but it was around 2 tons heavier too, as many 'Kummagutsa' 'equivalent' models are.

I've run a few Mitsubishi graders, an MG100, an MG400 and an MG330, and I wouldn't give you 2 paltry pinches of pickled possum poo for them. I'd almost rather be on an Fiat-Allis 65B grader. Almost. LOL.

I've never run an H series Cat and I'll be surprised if I ever get my grubby lunch-hoooks on an M series, much as I would like to. However, I have run the double joystick Cat wheel loaders and liked them and didn't have any trouble getting used to them. Having said that, I also admit that there are a few more gadgets and gizmos on the M series joysticks.

Cab size? I don't know 'cos I haven't been in any of the later ones, Volvo included. BUT, if you want to talk cab size, I'd back the O&K G350 against all of your fancy modern toys. There was heaps of room in that cab for my lunchbox - and it was a bit bigger than the lunchbox(?) in the photo above - and for my 22 year-old son too. But then it WAS a 42-ton machine too.

Maybe I'm a dinosaur but I'm with Northart on the subject of operator health with the new generation of minimal effort controls. How many companies are going to set up gymns on site so their operators can get a bit of decent exercise before they go home to their totally electronic-ised, effort-free accomodation. I suspect that unless we make some moves to compensate for it, the fact that we no longer hunt sabre-toothed tigers or the like may be the downfall of the human race. How many of you younger operators would take on a 2U D8 or a D9D for an hour, let alone for a day or day in and day out for 20 years? How many of you would take on a 'knuckle-buster' Cat 12 grader for an hour, let alone day in and day out for 20 years?

It is for the above scenario, as well as for their bravery and dedication, that I take my hat off to the folks in our various armed forces, especially the ones who might find themselves at the 'sharp end'. They DO put in the effort, as well as putting their lives on the line.

'Nuff said. (Well-trained little soapbox puts itself back in its corner until next time.)

[roadrunner]

Volvo trans is a Deere/Funk unit made in Kansas. It is smooth and the shift pattern is nice in my opinion, only makes sense to me, BUT, the old Cat operators won't touch anything they aren't used to. Geno

Hey Geno, is the new G series Volvo trans. really a Deere/Funk?I heard that it was used in VOLVO rock trucks for years.I do not know for sure but can you clarify this for me?
I hear yah on the "old" Cat operators issue!!Sometimes it is nice to try out other things during a lifetime not just stuck in the same old rut!!:eek:

[Geno795]

Roadrunner,
I looked around on the internet and could NOT verify my information. The reason I said that was a local contractor who has always used Cat 14 size graders tried the 14M and couldn't make them work so they tried a G990 Volvo machine, and that was what they said. There are no other Volvo around the Peoria area, so I will apologize for my comment and take it back until someone can prove it to be true. I am not sure if they bought the G990 but I think they did. That is what I get for repeating what an operator told me!! I did run one at a Deere function in Phoenix and do know they shift smooth. Sorry for not checking the facts before I put it in writing. Geno

[Northart]

Sometimes it is nice to try out other things during a lifetime not just stuck in the same old rut!!:eek:

Ha, thats what the last former Governor of New York thought ! Ruint his life ! LOL :falldownlaugh

[roadrunner]

Roadrunner,
I looked around on the internet and could NOT verify my information. The reason I said that was a local contractor who has always used Cat 14 size graders tried the 14M and couldn't make them work so they tried a G990 Volvo machine, and that was what they said. There are no other Volvo around the Peoria area, so I will apologize for my comment and take it back until someone can prove it to be true. I am not sure if they bought the G990 but I think they did. That is what I get for repeating what an operator told me!! I did run one at a Deere function in Phoenix and do know they shift smooth. Sorry for not checking the facts before I put it in writing. Geno


No worries Geno I do not know for sure either just know that both machines are very smooth shifting!!

[roadrunner]

Ha, thats what the last former Governor of New York thought ! Ruint his life ! LOL :falldownlaugh

Nice one Northart, Nice one!!!!!!:falldownlaugh

[Northart]

Hello Roadrunner,

Aha, at last someone appreciates my humor ! Slipped it past the dozing ??? Aha !

Just a play on words for the rest of the , less than current newsreaders. :)

Just humor folks !

[Northart]

So is JD trying to capture the crumbs of the disaffected and forlorn market users ? LOL :) With a ressurrected Cat 14H clone ? LOL :)

Hhmmn , I only thought animal husbandry attempted cloning ??? LOL :falldownlaugh

[MKTEF]

The Volvo transmission is built on the old Champion construction.
Has been upgraded and strengthened because they have put more/bigger clutches and stuff inside.(Has been longer)
Clutches inside comes from the L220/330 transmissions.
And a new electronic brain controlling everything. Shifting was improved even more after the last software upgrade.
U could feel the shift when it changed main axle, but not any moore.

[MKTEF]

And regarding the Truck transmission:
The ADT's and the Volvo trucks share the same transmission.
That transmission was made for the adt's but was in the beginning of the 90's redesigned/tested and later sold in Volvo trucks.
We had some test trucks running at a construction site where i was working.

[Geno795]

Northart,
Think maybe nobody else but the GOOD OL' BOYS know how to grade? Maybe all the manufacturers are figuring out the controls don't make the operator good? Kind of like a dress making the wife's butt look big, it is either BIG or it isn't. You can either see grade or you can't, no matter what you run. I do appreciate your humor, by the way. Geno

[ASPHALT04]

That brings a question that has been on mind for several years..........with all the advancements in equipment (Not saying that all are bad) are we doing away with equipment "Operators" and turning into equipment "Drivers"?
Just because someone can drive something doesn't mean they can operate it in my opinion!:beatsme

[Northart]

Hello Asphalt04,

Yes, that is the trend, electronics to reduce the training or skill acquistion time.

Us older Operators are retiring faster than the replacement generation. For a net loss of skilled people.The same symptom is happening in other industry elsewhere. The WW2 Baby Boom Generation.:)


Hello Geno,

Hope you don't get too wound up, it's only a discussion. :) :drinkup Happy Grading .

[ASPHALT04]

Hello Asphalt04,

Yes, that is the trend, electronics to reduce the training or skill acquistion time.

Us older Operators are retiring faster than the replacement generation. For a net loss of skilled people.The same symptom is happening in other industry elsewhere. The WW2 Baby Boom Generation.:)


Hello Geno,

Hope you don't get too wound up, it's only a discussion. :) :drinkup Happy Grading .

I'm really not all that old, but I started off in an old 12 "knuckle Buster" w/ pony motor starter. I got turned loose scarfiring and regrading a 2-mile strip of an old chip-sealed road. Running a grader to me is something "You feel in the seat of your pants" and you either have a feel for it or you don't. There is no real inbetween. With experience some are just faster than others.
The guy I learned the most from I used to watch because I chased behind him with a 3-wheeled roller busting chunks. He would get really offended if you had to get off the roller and do any hand work.
I had many guys say they could run a grader when in reality all they could do was drag the blade on the ground. They could see a grade if you stapled it to their eyeballs!

[ovrszd]

John Deere can target me all they want for grader sales, they are wasting their time.

They make good agriculture equipment , and they should stick with that in my opinion.


I'm not sure they are specifically targeting you as much as a comparable experience level. Your last sentence is why Deere makes a good grader. They tend to be more user friendly than most, just like their tractors.

I've ran their 670B, 770BH, 770CH, 770CH Series II and now I'm 200 hours into a 770D. All were new when I started running them. Every model change has been an improvement. Sometimes it's me that needs to conform rather than the change being ineffective. But that's my age showing.

As for which brand is best, I wouldn't claim any knowledge of that. But as for pickups, anyone would know that a Cummins Dodge is head and shoulders above a Powerstroke Ford or Duramax Chevy. :rolleyes:

[alco]

As for which brand is best, I wouldn't claim any knowledge of that. But as for pickups, anyone would know that a Cummins Dodge is head and shoulders above a Powerstroke Ford or Duramax Chevy. :rolleyes:


You know, right up till this, I actually thought you knew what you were talking about...lol. Just buggin ya.

Brian

[ovrszd]

You know, right up till this, I actually thought you knew what you were talking about...lol. Just buggin ya.

Brian

I threw that in there hoping Northart was a Ford/Chevy man. Heheheheheh.... :)

[Bellboy]

Sorry to dig up this old thread, but those look much more comfortable and less confusing then the cat's! I've heard a lot about this new JD 'G' series, if a lot is just that they have new electro hydraulic controls. Nothing about new positioning for the clusters and what not. For those of you who have seen it at CONEXPO, enlighten me. I will always be a JD guy, and I can't wait for the 'G' series!

[ovrszd]

I live near and travel on Interstate Hwy 35 which is a major North/South artery thru mid-America. I see a lot of new JD equipment going South. Everytime I see a grader I check to see if it's the new G model. All I see so far are D models. I was told a year ago that it would release in December 2008. Evidently that hasn't happened since the factory is still shipping out D models?? I'm anxious to see it also. Just like I was anxious to see the M model Cat.

[G Model]

I have run both machines and the deere controls are very nice. I do not claim to be an operator but the steering on the deere was much easier to get used to in the short time I got to run each. because Im not an operator I did not have as much trouble with the cat controls and could probably get used to everything but the steering, if you have ever run a dozer it reminds me of a cat d5c hystat transmission control.

[ZX850]

I have to agree with Northart that the older cat graders lasted for a very long time and were built with larger components to stand the test of time and punishment. Something that I have noticed is that as time has progressed many manufacturers have decreased the size of the components and in doing so decreased the life of the machine. I just sat down the other day and reviewed something I found interesting in relation to where Cat has gone with the M series and where Deere has gone with their G series. While the Deere D series was a dramatic improvement over the previous C series grader that Deere produced it still had a little ways to go in order to prove to everyone that it would last over time. What I have seen is that on the new G series Deere has increased the size of everything on the machine from clutch plates, pin/bushing diameter (including never grease pins to eliminate grease zerks and increase life) to engine displacement to extend life farther than ever before. Unfortunately Cat has done the complete opposite of what they have preached for years on their graders...cat always said displacement and size of components means life...guess they are developing Alzheimer’s in their old age of 100 on the M series because they have reduced everything in size from pin diameter to engine displacement and as a result most likely reducing the life of the machine....it is disappointing but everyone has their moment of greatness and fall from glory...glad to see Deere putting quality into a product and listening to the customer when a machine is designed and built(Customer Advocacy Groups played a huge part in developing both the D series and improving it in the G series) instead of just telling the market this is what you will run because this is the future...get used to it we are the best because we are Cat and you will do this....those days are over for every manufacturer and the companies that understand that and listen to the customer base and design their product to meet the needs of their customers will prosper and grow.

Just a few of my thoughts,

[G Model]

I think what has happened to Caterpillar is there is a new breed of engineers coming up throught the ranks, posssibly long gone are the guys that worked on the pre G's the G's and even the H models. Dont know if this is true but it could be I suppose.

[ovrszd]

I agree with ZX850. That's what I mean when I say Deere is more user friendly than Cat. I think Deere listens more closely to what operators want. They worked very hard thru the last three model changes to make their machines more like Cat which was widely known as the leader. Sadly, as ZX850 stated, Cat meanwhile has let their ego get in the way of logical progression. Hopefully they'll turn that mentality around. We need aggressive competition by manufacturers. That results in better machinery for us to operate regardless of what brand you prefer. Deere's entrance into this market has forced Cat to progress. I think we'll also see more out of Volvo which will again force everyone to constantly improve. It's a win situation for us operators. :)

[Deereman]

I was at the factory in davenport in september and they were just about to switch over to the G- graders and already going to the K- loaders. And the reason you are still seeing alot of D's is because I was told deere builds to orders instead of stock piling like other brands do. And there was quite a few d's left on the yard(in other words full) And all of those were sold.
And like ovrszd said it good to see more companys upping the antee cause in the end it makes for a great product. Just like what toyota did to GM and Ford. Deere has come a long way since the old 570's..
And ovrszd, you can drop a gold bar in a pile of sh!@ and it still be a pile of ****. Talking about Dodge :stirthepot :shf :) lol

[G Model]

I know he's gonna chew me up and spit me out for saying this, but I really wish we could get Northart on a new Deere G Grader , and give his Honest opinion good or bad. Im not nessesarily talking about the new controls, heck I would love to see him running the traditional ones. I know it's not gonna be as reliable as some of those old G Model Cat's, but we have to realize nobody builds graders like that anymore, not even Caterpillar. In my humble opinion and my limited experence ( 26 in heavy equipment and ten selling Graders, the new Deere comes closer than any others, and I think that is reflected in them being the only major manufaturer to be taking significant market share away from them. I also know they Don't build machines as big as Caterpillar and they might not work for some of you but ,Im just talking about in the class size they represent. Norhart be Gentle this is just a friendly Discussion. I wouldnt be intrigued if I dind't think you were a good operator and didn't know what you are talking about.
Scott

[MKTEF]

I have to say this thread is a bit more relaxed than another one in the grader section.:D:D

I have said this before, but will repeat it:
I know for a fact that there has been a lot of very experienced operators over to Preoria telling Cat what they want in the M's.
I know that 3 operators from Norway has been over, tested and given advice to Cat on the M's;).

That said, i also have a feeling that theese three has had a very big impact on the design. ;)
A so big impact that the M's look like they do.
I now get the feeling that a huge amount of the operators don't like it. Your home market...:usa

Just to give u an idea of how the grader market has changed over here:
Normaly there is 4-7 graders sold every year.(Total in Norway)
2007 was extreme for Cat, they delivered nearly none.(M was delied)
Last year around 30 graders was delivered:eek:
And they are continuing in the same pace this year.
Seems that all the old graders is changed in 2008/2009.
A huge number of old G's and H's is available for export.(Cat is not allowing any one of them to be sold here!)

If Cat havent made the M's ,i think Cat would have lost the whole grader market over here. All the operators demand joysticks, and Cat was the last to deliver it.
Now the operators are complaining on other topics with the M's...But thats another story.:)

I agree with you regarding this topic, some conservative users will go over to other brands because they have a option to what u want.
Days when Cat was the best is gone, they ain't bether than any other brand.
But there are still some guys who got the yellow fever.;)

[Soldati06]

wow thats pretty awesome i bet it doesn't take long to figure them all out and get the "finess" touch to it

[Alberta]

I'm going to a demo of the new Deere grader this coming week...can't wait to get in and try one. I wonder if the Deere dealer would take 6 Cat grader on trade :D:canada

[Randy Krieg]

You're breakin my heart dude...:( , but honestly I understand your frustration. I know you have roads to clear and that can't be done when they're in the shop hooked to a laptop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!or torn down.

Our rental Hitachi with only 690 hours on it went down yesterday. My blood was boiling. I wanted a 330 Cat. Equipment division got a better rental rate on this Hitachi and it was a shorter mobe. None of that mattered yesterday to our onsite mechanic or me. I only have so many days and our iceroad goes bye bye.

We had to come in today due to -80 windchills and our soil testers were freezing to death....
Best of Luck, Randy

[Alberta]

Sorry to break your heart Randy...... But with all the still ongoing issues with these machines, I'm seriously starting to feel like defecting to one of the other camps. Just last month alone we had over 250 hrs of downtime. This week-end we had to change a couple of check valves because of the aluminum bodies were failing...just over 2250 hrs. What's next ?