New septic flooded

[BIGDAN315]

I have a situation regarding a septic I installed for a homeowner. The septic was engineered and was hired by me. The problem is, the leach field is getting flooded by ground water and or run off from the hill just above the system. There is a swale to divert runoff from the hill but not enough I guess. What are my options on this matter?

[digger242j]

The septic was engineered and was hired by me.

I hope by this you mean that an engineer desigened it, and you were hired to build it according to the engineer's plan--not that you engineered it. Or did you hire the engineer?

Not that I have a whole lot of experience with septic systems, but it sounds to me as if the engineer failed to account for the runoff. Either that, or the agency/inspector in charge of approving the site/plans should've caught it.

[BIGDAN315]

I hope by this you mean that an engineer desigened it, and you were hired to build it according to the engineer's plan--not that you engineered it. Or did you hire the engineer?

Not that I have a whole lot of experience with septic systems, but it sounds to me as if the engineer failed to account for the runoff. Either that, or the agency/inspector in charge of approving the site/plans should've caught it.

Yes the engineer desigened it and I built it per plan. The engineer was hired by me to desigened it.

[digger242j]

Ok. That clarifies the question.

I'm no lawyer either, but now it seems as if you have some more of the burden here than if the owner had hired the engineer. Now, instead of being able to refer the owner's problem back to his engineer, you have to refer the problem back to your engineer.

What has your engineer had to say about this? (He kinda helped you get into this problem. It seems reasonable to expect him to help you out of it.)

[MKTEF]

Well, here around the answer is as follows::)

When designing the leach field, the designer must take in consideration rain water that can flood the area.
It's also so that in a hill the field must be along the side of the slope, and a ditch made above it with drainige to remove water.;)

There is also a demand for a earth test to determine the soils ability to clean the black water.
Bad earths makes a demand for longer perforated lines.
Sometimes up to 220 feet of line, for one household.:(

If the earth is to bad, u got to build a leach "pond", where it is even more demands to type of soils, ground level and such.

Ground water level must never be higher up, than 1,5 feet down of the leach pipes.(any time)
U must have a lisence to do the digging/mounting of the system too.
And a engineer exam to design the system.
And a aproval from the community before u start.

Conclusion:
You and your engineer is in trouble.(after our Norwegian rules):(

[BIGDAN315]

Ok. That clarifies the question.

I'm no lawyer either, but now it seems as if you have some more of the burden here than if the owner had hired the engineer. Now, instead of being able to refer the owner's problem back to his engineer, you have to refer the problem back to your engineer.

What has your engineer had to say about this? (He kinda helped you get into this problem. It seems reasonable to expect him to help you out of it.)

He said "Boy it should of worked" and I said :beatsme. I asked if a curtain drain would take away any ground water leaching into the system. He said ya maybe he should of disigned one in...:Banghead. Ok now who has to pay for it?? Should the home owner pay for it ? because if it where disigned into it from the beginning it would of been included in the cost. I will probably install it out my pocket just to make the home owner happy and the monkey off my back..:usa

[Steve Frazier]

Is this a licensed engineer you're working with? Are you required to have the system inspected before it's covered? This isn't sounding at all like what we go through to design and install a system. I'll have more comments later, pressed for time at the moment, but if you built to the design of a licensed engineer, I don't see where you are liable for the shortfall.

[BIGDAN315]

Is this a licensed engineer you're working with? Are you required to have the system inspected before it's covered? This isn't sounding at all like what we go through to design and install a system. I'll have more comments later, pressed for time at the moment, but if you built to the design of a licensed engineer, I don't see where you are liable for the shortfall.

Yes a Licensed engineer and stamped drawings which where aproved by the towns code inforcement. The system was also inspected by the code officer. I agree with your last statement as well Steve.

[Alan Mesmer]

In my opinion, although the engineer and/or soil evaluator was originally responsible for the lack of considering ground water run -off flooding the system, you the installer, are ultimately going to see the most grief from the resulting situation.
As an septic installer, I know what pitfalls usually can surface and many times know what will work and what will not. If I am not comfortable with a design recommendation I address potential problems before they can surface after construction. In this situation a perimeter drain may prevent surface water saturation of the system.
All this aside, as I said before, you are going to see the most grief from this situation. Your name will get tarnished not the design engineer and as such you must make things right at your cost. A similar situation happened to a contractor in my area and the homeowner was given a price of $1800 for the addition of a perimeter drain. They paid to have it done and after completion they told every one they knew, the name of the contractor who did their system, and how they came back and charged them more money to make it work as it was originally supposed to work. If I was this contractor I would have done it for no additional cost to the H.O. to keep my reputation rather than try to make a buck on a repair(Material cost for perimeter drain <$400)! I have since done two other jobs for this particular homeowner that surely would have gone to the original contractor if the charge for the repair would not have occured.
Another local contractor was recently drug through the mud because a newer system failed. The BBB was notified, he dug his feet in for a fight, and a lawsuit was initiated and ultimately the contractor lost even though it was built as spec'd and passed final inspections. His insurance company talked him into settling and paid the H.O. to have a new system installed instead of dragging it out a long time in the court system. I'm sure that he has ultimately paid much more in his premiums. Im also sure that his business has suffered from all of the bad publicity.
Good luck
Alan

[Kgmz]

When did you install this system?

Was there any water present when you dug the ditches for the laterals?

How close is the drain field to the swale and bank?


As a certified septic installer in Pierce County, WA and the state of Oregon. According to the rules and laws it is my responsibility to question the engineer/designer and stop work if I see something that may not work, such as high water table, drain field to close below or above a slope/bank, poor soils, etc. etc. Then the engineer comes to the site to verify and comes up with a solution.

Now you may have learned a lesson here. Next time let the homeowner hire the engineer and pay for his service. That way it falls back to the homeowner to deal with the engineer. You may suggest a engineer, but this still may come back and bite you since you suggested him/her.

Around here there are good and bad licensed septic designers/engineers. And through the years I have learned which are good or bad. Only about 25% are excellent, the next 25% are OK, and the rest are just a pain for one reason or the other.

The only time we hire the engineer/designer is for our own projects like spec homes, etc. And if someone asks for a recommendation there is only 1 or 2 people I will suggest out of the hundreds.



I have seen some bad designs where I think the engineer just walked around the site and guessed on the topography, and then I come out and the site doesn't look at all like the design. Then I have seen another engineer that comes out to the site with a robotic total station and checks the site and the design is perfect. This same designer brings out the total station after I have installed it to check that everything is where it is supposed to be and then pops the info into his computer and prints the as-built.

[BIGDAN315]

When did you install this system?

Was there any water present when you dug the ditches for the laterals?

How close is the drain field to the swale and bank?


As a certified septic installer in Pierce County, WA and the state of Oregon. According to the rules and laws it is my responsibility to question the engineer/designer and stop work if I see something that may not work, such as high water table, drain field to close below or above a slope/bank, poor soils, etc. etc. Then the engineer comes to the site to verify and comes up with a solution.

Now you may have learned a lesson here. Next time let the homeowner hire the engineer and pay for his service. That way it falls back to the homeowner to deal with the engineer. You may suggest a engineer, but this still may come back and bite you since you suggested him/her.

Around here there are good and bad licensed septic designers/engineers. And through the years I have learned which are good or bad. Only about 25% are excellent, the next 25% are OK, and the rest are just a pain for one reason or the other.

The only time we hire the engineer/designer is for our own projects like spec homes, etc. And if someone asks for a recommendation there is only 1 or 2 people I will suggest out of the hundreds.



I have seen some bad designs where I think the engineer just walked around the site and guessed on the topography, and then I come out and the site doesn't look at all like the design. Then I have seen another engineer that comes out to the site with a robotic total station and checks the site and the design is perfect. This same designer brings out the total station after I have installed it to check that everything is where it is supposed to be and then pops the info into his computer and prints the as-built.

Thanks for your input. sounds like I'me screwed...:(

[MKTEF]

Thanks every one!:drinkup:drinkup

This was a interresting topic to discuss.:)
After the posts read here, u got the exact same prosedure as we got over here.:)
Only difference is, u all know the right english words for everything that i don't know..:(

And i made my exam as a qualified septic and pipe installer today, feels like i passed...:D

[GaryKelley]

An interesting aside here. I installed a new septic system and leach field for a "country store" 30 miles out of town last spring. All went well, as well as the might go when you are trying to dig in ancient creekbed stratas. I ahd to make a few adjustments, as there were undocumented sewer attachments not ID'd at the start. Anyway, I got it all done, finally got paid all the money. Then 4 weeks later, the store burned to the ground as a result of a fualty electric heater....so far, no plans to rebuild....

[dayexco]

Yes the engineer desigened it and I built it per plan. The engineer was hired by me to desigened it.

engineers typically carry "errors and ommisions" insurance, tell him that you need to collect on it to correct his problem.

[BIGDAN315]

engineers typically carry "errors and ommisions" insurance, tell him that you need to collect on it to correct his problem.

finally some one who is on my side....:drinkup

[xcavate]

I have heard of the errors and omissions insurance policy too. I think its a requirement in massachusetts for an engineering firm to have it

[dayexco]

finally some one who is on my side....:drinkup

"IF".....you built per his design, he inspected and accepted. good luck

[tuney443]

"IF".....you built per his design, he inspected and accepted. good luck

EXACTLY--and something else that I didn't see brought up is what does the gov't authority for inspecting SDS's around you say about this fiasco?I would fight this tooth and nails if I were you--that engineer is definitely at fault and you might need to hire a pit bull of a lawyer if he still doesn't get it after you explain this to him.I despise engineers like that. My Dad always used to say that before an engineer designs his first job,he should have some serious seat time on a backhoe to teach him some things that college didn't.

[BIGDAN315]

EXACTLY--and something else that I didn't see brought up is what does the gov't authority for inspecting SDS's around you say about this fiasco?I would fight this tooth and nails if I were you--that engineer is definitely at fault and you might need to hire a pit bull of a lawyer if he still doesn't get it after you explain this to him.I despise engineers like that. My Dad always used to say that before an engineer designs his first job,he should have some serious seat time on a backhoe to teach him some things that college didn't.

Thats what I thought. I have lost all confidence in this engineer. I have also herd how some of these guys get there degrees...:ban

Thanks guys

[PipeGuy]

I understand that it seems the engineer is at fault but is it really worth hiring a lawyer and taking a risk in losing and then having the cost of the lawyer also. IMHO I would fix the project so it works and make sure the H.O. is aware of the situation and you will most likely get much more work due to the fact that you took care of you customers

[dayexco]

Thats what I thought. I have lost all confidence in this engineer. I have also herd how some of these guys get there degrees...:ban

Thanks guys

i have 3 brothers that are engineers, the degrees don't come cheap, or easily. should it go to court, you'd best be able to document that you built it 100% as design. not saying that there aren't engineering flaws, and that designs fail. i've also seen contractors totally ignore plans/specs, take off on a tangent of their own....and then cuss the engineer when things don't work. i wish you well

[dirt digger]

Thats what I thought. I have lost all confidence in this engineer. I have also herd how some of these guys get there degrees...:ban

Thanks guys

i am a current Civil Engineering major at Penn State University...i also install tons of septic fields when i work in the summer (usually 4 a month for me, around 12 for the company). Its amazing what they don't tell you in school. I have learned a lot of "book smarts" in the last 3 years then I will ever need, but i have never once heard a professor tell me to go out and look at a jobsite...it baffles me, especially when i read plans designined by a "PE" and i know something wont work just by all the field experience i have gained in the last 6 years...thats the problems with a lot of my fellow class mates, they may have an internship drawing plans but you just don't know what will work until you get out there and get your feet and hands dirty

[bigjake0524]

I think that the engineers will be pretty untouchable due to all of there clauses. It may be best to work with the homeowner and install a ground water interceptor for the cost of materials. Hope all turns out well.

[ForsytheBros.]

Hey Dan-

are you super-sure that there are no other "hidden" contributors to the field saturation? Ie, no hidden sprinkler systems nearby, no toilets that run continuously inside the home? Not doubting the solution that was presented, seems like those other issues have been some culprits for us in the past......best wishes on your resolution

[BIGDAN315]

Hey Dan-

are you super-sure that there are no other "hidden" contributors to the field saturation? Ie, no hidden sprinkler systems nearby, no toilets that run continuously inside the home? Not doubting the solution that was presented, seems like those other issues have been some culprits for us in the past......best wishes on your resolution

No not super sure which is a good point. Not so sure there wasn't some drainage tile that was missed and is dumping ground water into the system either.

[tdozer]

We had a similar problem with a few older leach fields around here. Granted, i was dealing with 20 year old systems and your dealing with a new one. whenever it would rain, the fields would back up but any other time they would work fine. the homeowners didnt want to pay for a whole new system($15000). I wound up buying 300 yards of black clay and capping the fields with it. Absolutely no water whatsoever gets throuh that stuff. its been 7 years and all 3 septics are still going strong and i saved each homeowner $12000 and a bunch of time. So that might be an idea for you if you can come across some dense clay.

[digger242j]

i am a current Civil Engineering major at Penn State University...i also install tons of septic fields when i work in the summer (usually 4 a month for me, around 12 for the company). Its amazing what they don't tell you in school. I have learned a lot of "book smarts" in the last 3 years then I will ever need, but i have never once heard a professor tell me to go out and look at a jobsite...it baffles me, especially when i read plans designined by a "PE" and i know something wont work just by all the field experience i have gained in the last 6 years...thats the problems with a lot of my fellow class mates, they may have an internship drawing plans but you just don't know what will work until you get out there and get your feet and hands dirty

I missed this post when it was first made, but I think it's worth commenting on.

I've long thought that nobody should be handed a pencil and allowed to design stuff, unless they've spent a few seasons with a shovel in their hand first.

Thanks, dirt digger, for confirming that impression.

:thumbsup

[Willis Bushogin]

finally some one who is on my side....:drinkup I guess, Im not on your side either LOL, as Alan stated, its better to bit the bullet and fix it yourself. Dont wait, go do it and keep the homeowner happy, you will get more money by making it right, than you will, saying "Its not my Fault" these jobs like this can make or break you down the road, especially if you are just getting started. Do the job and then try to get the engineer to pay for it, they can drag their feet on issues like this, they dont really care most of the time (maybe I shouldnt have said that) Disregard any engineers reading this :D
As someone stated, you have to keep an eye on everything, when you install these systems, I have found a lot of mistakes, or things they forgot to add
Just curious, what type of leachfield system do you use in your area (this could be another forum, I didnt realize there was that many of us on this one) I use rock trenchs and Infiltrators (dome type, 25% reduction) As of 2008, we had to get certified by the state (24hrs of classes and test) to install any sytems, it depends what grade level you need, as to what test you take. I have the class IV, plus inspector. Bunch of crap, to me really, just a way to get more money out of us. This is a little off the subject.

Almost forgot, I had almost the same thing happen a few years ago, I installed a system for a new house and the ground just did pass the perk inspection, I told the HO they had to install gutters on the house and devirt the water away from the system. Thsy didnt and we had a really bad rain storm and I got a call that I scr-wed up the system, so I have to take time off from installing another system and go meet with the county inspector and HO. When I drove up, I saw what was wrong, yep-no gutters and this was a large roof and all the water was running right on top the system, plus they had built up the land in back of the system, so there was no postive drainage. The inspector asked me what I thought (funny that he would ask me) and I told me about the gutters and postive drainage, he kinda was rough on the HO, but I was in the clear on this one. They installed gutters and piped it away from the system and got the landscaper got the postive drainage correct.

Good Luck, somethings you cant win them all. But that customer will tell other people about what you did for him, good or bad. Lets hope he said
" you know, that guy came over and fixed my problem and didnt charge me anything and it was the engineers fault, he is a nice guy"
Of course, tell him up front, that the engineer made a mistake, but you are going to make it right, sometimes the HO may suprise you and pay for it.
BUT dont ask him for it.
Just my 2 cents worth, from the school of hard knocks, which I have a Masters degree:Banghead

[BIGDAN315]

Willis, This system was a standard stone and pipe. The back yard was tight we could only get in 200 feet. It is at a base of a hill,there is a drainage swail but thats only good for surface water. I think we need a french drain around the topside to take away ground water and to intercept drainage tile if any.There is pitch enough to take to a drainage ditch. Thanks for your input.

[Willis Bushogin]

Willis, This system was a standard stone and pipe. The back yard was tight we could only get in 200 feet. It is at a base of a hill,there is a drainage swail but thats only good for surface water. I think we need a french drain around the topside to take away ground water and to intercept drainage tile if any.There is pitch enough to take to a drainage ditch. Thanks for your input.
Theres a lot of stuff we havent heard about yet, but Im not a engineer, but I dont think a french drain will work, by itself, unless its a really big french drain. My problem with this is, with it raining real hard, the water is rushing down the hill/slopes, you need something to stop it, at the FD, to make the FD work. I have had to install a 4ft wide swale, with a small back wall out of rip rap (about 12" rocks) I lined the swale with a membrane and filled it with small rip rap(4-8" rock) I guess you could just install this wall behind the FD, but Im not sure the FD would drain a lot of water quickly, like a swale
I would not recommend anything to the engineer, let him tell you, or you might hear "well you said"
Good Luck and keep us posted and I do not write anything to be negative, just offering my 2 cents worth and hope it helps someone.
What does others think of the FD idea? Ive never used this application (FD) except around a building, that water may pond around and Ive had to go back and remove dirt, that a landscaper put there, on top of the FD, to plant his flowers in.

[tuney443]

Willis, This system was a standard stone and pipe. The back yard was tight we could only get in 200 feet. It is at a base of a hill,there is a drainage swail but thats only good for surface water. I think we need a french drain around the topside to take away ground water and to intercept drainage tile if any.There is pitch enough to take to a drainage ditch. Thanks for your input.

BigDan---Without even looking at this job,from everything you said here,this new system is crying for a curtain drain.It is imperative that the invert on your perforated pipe is slightly lower than the lowest leach field line.Use plenty of clean stone,either bring it up to grade or cover it with geotek.By me,ANY scenario like yours requires a curtain drain--part of the BOH's inspection.

[BIGDAN315]

BigDan---Without even looking at this job,from everything you said here,this new system is crying for a curtain drain.It is imperative that the invert on your perforated pipe is slightly lower than the lowest leach field line.Use plenty of clean stone,either bring it up to grade or cover it with geotek.By me,ANY scenario like yours requires a curtain drain--part of the BOH's inspection.

Tuney, I agree and there is not much else one can do with out going to allot of expence with a raised bed and pump station . ...:Banghead

[dirt digger]

go to the end of the trenches...dig a hole 10 feet deep by 5-6 foot wide, fill it with stone and forget about it...its a cheap fix, and won't pass inspection but for penny pinchers it does the trick

[oldhousehugger]

I whole heartedly agree with Alan Mesmer and the importance of maintaining customer good will. It is also important that you take care of yourself by seeking remedy from the PE who stamped the plans. As mentioned earlier he must carry insurance against just this sort of outcome. If he is any kind of designer he will know what to do and work with you to fix the problem.
If you sense he is clueless, get a more knowledgeable engineer to give a second opinion. If it ends up going to court the lawyers always get their money first. Also the town biulding officials who stamped the plans always will say that they only look for the engineers stamp because they say that's the engineer's job not theirs.

Try to look at it from the homeowners perspective. They hired you, you hired a sub (engineer) who's design proved inadequate. You bid and built to the inadequate design which doesn't work. From their perspective the balls in your court.
What's the best path for you to take in the long run?
Sure I've walked off jobs before. Sometimes there isn't a good outcome anywhere to be had. But you have got to make every attempt to make it right or you will indeed get a bad rep.
Sometimes working for free is the best money you can make all week. Welcome to the world of small bussiness.

[Digwizz]

Dan, what was the soil type? In my experience, a curtain drain works well with a sandy soil. If the soil has a high clay content, surface water is about all you can catch, the subsurface water has a hard time getting to the drain. If the clay content is high, your best option is to install the curtain drain in the invert of the swale and bring the stone in the curtain drain right to the top, (no soil over the stone).

I'm also questioning the design of only of 200 lf of leaching line. We would typically use 300 lf per bedroom.

One more thing, is there a chance you have a limiting layer, (impermeable layer causing water to be perched), preventing the water from leaching through the soil and draining.

Where I install systems in NE Ohio, we have alot of tight soil conditions where standard leaching line doesn't work very well and we are forced to use raised leaching lines, mound systems, and drip systems to keep our treatment out of the water.

I sense there are a bunch of guys out there who have experience with this problem!

[BIGDAN315]

Dan, what was the soil type? In my experience, a curtain drain works well with a sandy soil. If the soil has a high clay content, surface water is about all you can catch, the subsurface water has a hard time getting to the drain. If the clay content is high, your best option is to install the curtain drain in the invert of the swale and bring the stone in the curtain drain right to the top, (no soil over the stone).

I'm also questioning the design of only of 200 lf of leaching line. We would typically use 300 lf per bedroom.

One more thing, is there a chance you have a limiting layer, (impermeable layer causing water to be perched), preventing the water from leaching through the soil and draining.

Where I install systems in NE Ohio, we have alot of tight soil conditions where standard leaching line doesn't work very well and we are forced to use raised leaching lines, mound systems, and drip systems to keep our treatment out of the water.

I sense there are a bunch of guys out there who have experience with this problem!

Without digging out the engineers drawings I Don;t know if I remember exsactly what the soill was like. I think maybe it was a sand/clay mixture maybe more clay than sand but I do know it wasn't favarable looking stuff. By impermeable you mean bedrock or compacted soil right? None was found when the hole for the tank was dug. I do think I noticed some ground water seeping into the trenches when I was installing the leach field..:Pointhead 200 feet is all we had room for with his small back yard.

[Digwizz]

Do they allow you guys to install aeration tanks, filtration, and chlorination or UV treatment so you can treat the waste to low BOD,TSS, and pathogens and then discharge it to a road ditch. This eliminates the need for alot of space.
Imho, 200 lf is sure to fail unless water use is really limited, or the soil is pretty permeable.
Sorry to wander from the story line, believe me, I understand that you have money buried in the ground and your reputation is in danger of being damaged.
You definitely need to keep upgradient water from making it's way into your leach field.

[dirt digger]

Do they allow you guys to install aeration tanks, filtration, and chlorination or UV treatment so you can treat the waste to low BOD,TSS, and pathogens and then discharge it to a road ditch.

wow, i'm suprised theres other people out there that know about all this fancy ****...literally, haha

[JDecker]

Big Dan just wondering who the engineer is i work in the same area you do we have run into a few poor engineers. I think the best way to solve your promblem is a curtine drain. as i think some one else said. the engineer should have came out and inspeceted it before you backfilled it and singed off on it. So it should be his problem. I would talk to the custmor and tell them you bid and put the system into the way the plans showed.

[ARPlante]

Hey all, great advice in this thread! I'm looking to learn more about installing traditional and alternative septic systems and I was wondering if there were any good books/ websites/ pamphlets I should be reading on the subject?
Thanks,
Andrew

[tuney443]

Bigdan--have you tried talking to this engineer yet? I would most definitely remind him if he doesn't seem forthcoming to pay for the curtain drain you should probably install now that you've been talking to a lawyer for a possible lawsuit.This is pure,unadultrated BS. By me,any uphill slope from the leaching area usually gets a curtain drain; after the deep test holes are dug,if ground water is evident,it most definitely would require a drain.Has the BOH been notified of the situation?They might be partially responsible here too if you know what I mean.

[Willis Bushogin]

I have a situation regarding a septic I installed for a homeowner. The septic was engineered and was hired by me. The problem is, the leach field is getting flooded by ground water and or run off from the hill just above the system. There is a swale to divert runoff from the hill but not enough I guess. What are my options on this matter?

I dont want to start a war about all this, but Ive been in business a long time and I have learned some things the hard way:Banghead Here are some good advise, take it or leave it.
1. Its been almost 2 months, since you posted the need for help, If I were the customer, I would not be happy. I would get some engineer to give you some plans to fix this and go do it. Keep the customer out of the "whos to blame thingee" they dont need to hear this. They hired you to do this and it wasnt done correctly ( engineer messed up) Its up to you, to make it right, if the customer gets mad enough, he will hire another installer, to fix the problem and send you the bill (you dont want that)
2. Dont even think about blaming the Heath Dept, "they never make mistakes and are never the blame" dont believe me, ask them. You will never win with them, trying to place the blame. A friend of mine tried to buck the HD, he LOST, then he lost many other times, on other inspections. If you try to buck them, your system will be 110% perfect from then on, or it will fail. NEVER, NEVER try to buck the HD, it will not be pretty.
3. I know, its hard to bite the bullet and pay for this out of pocket. We really dont make that much, out of a regular system, so its hard to dig in your pocket and pay for it, but sometimes we have to do it, for our reputation. It will make you money down the road and its hard to dig in now.

Bottom line, go get a engineer to give you a repair plan, install the repair and then worry about trying to get money out of the engineer, this may take time and the customer is getting madder all the time and if someone reports the failing septic system (they do report these things) to the HD, then they will get involved big time and you will not win.

Just wondered, what has been going on, with the customer and engineer for 2 months. What is the customer saying about all this? Whats the engineer saying about this?

All this advise is given in a, "trying to help a fellow installer way" only

Good luck

[tuney443]

2. Dont even think about blaming the Heath Dept, "they never make mistakes and are never the blame" dont believe me, ask them. You will never win with them, trying to place the blame. A friend of mine tried to buck the HD, he LOST, then he lost many other times, on other inspections. If you try to buck them, your system will be 110% perfect from then on, or it will fail. NEVER, NEVER try to buck the HD, it will not be pretty.

Willis--We must have different types of health dept's.The one by me is nothing basically more than a bunch of ''engineers'',and I use that term EXTREMELY loosely who used to work for our areas largest engineering firm.Yes,they were fired for incompetence and are basically rejects.I don't mean to go off-topic here but I am constantly pointing out things to them and I usually get my way.Case in point was a woman inspector{who lost her job at daddy's eng.firm,a different one} who didn't like my having a 90* elbow coming into my D box.I pointed out to her this is just gray water and the outlets in the D box had 90*s--what's the diff? She said no,the code book doesn't allow it--OK,so after 34 years of hundreds of systems and BOH approvals,I'm now in violation.So I take 2 45*s,stick them end to end,put it in,she loves it!!!! How nice--now I'm in compliance:rolleyes:If I see something I disagree with I go straight to the top engineer in the BOH--he's great,knows his stuff and feels the same about me--he'll usually back me up.

[JDecker]

Not sure but in upstate ny we had about 14" of frost and just got ride of most of it so i am thinking it would have been some what hard to throw a drain in. and that cold wheather might have slowed the flooding down a little so they could use there septic. Not sure if that is the case just my 2 cents

[greywynd]

can anyone point me to s sketch of a curtain drain? I suspect i know what everyone's talking about, but want to make sure....or, I'm out in left field....and have no clue. ***:confused:

[JDecker]

like french drain tile that runs on a uphill side of a leach field filled with stone and day lighted

[tuney443]

can anyone point me to s sketch of a curtain drain? I suspect i know what everyone's talking about, but want to make sure....or, I'm out in left field....and have no clue. ***:confused:

I can't sketch for crap and I'm basically computer illiterate so I can't scan some CD pics either.So here it is---It's basically the opposite of a leaching system where you have the majority of stone below the 4'' pipe.In a curtain drain,it is considered a'' collection'' type system in that the majority of stone is above your 4'' or 6'' perforated pipe.You are collecting the water,using the stone as the medium to channel it in the pipe and bringing it to daylite.It is called ''curtain'' because you are intercepting the water BEFORE it reaches a house,pool,wall,septic system,etc.It is paramount that the invert on the drain is lower than what you are trying to protect to insure you are intercepting all the water.It's really very simple--justhave to pay attention to detail.

[greywynd]

I can't sketch for crap and I'm basically computer illiterate so I can't scan some CD pics either.So here it is---It's basically the opposite of a leaching system where you have the majority of stone below the 4'' pipe.In a curtain drain,it is considered a'' collection'' type system in that the majority of stone is above your 4'' or 6'' perforated pipe.You are collecting the water,using the stone as the medium to channel it in the pipe and bringing it to daylite.It is called ''curtain'' because you are intercepting the water BEFORE it reaches a house,pool,wall,septic system,etc.It is paramount that the invert on the drain is lower than what you are trying to protect to insure you are intercepting all the water.It's really very simple--justhave to pay attention to detail.

So it would be similar to a french drain then I think. Basically, cut your trench/swale, line with a barrier cloth (can't think of the name for the right type for this right now) a little stone, a drain tile (typically a 4" o-pipe) and cover with more stone. Catches all the run off coming down the hill, and prevents it from flooding the area/ground where (in this case) the field is. Got it. Guess I've done a few and didn't realize it. :cool:

[Willis Bushogin]

2. Dont even think about blaming the Heath Dept, "they never make mistakes and are never the blame" dont believe me, ask them. You will never win with them, trying to place the blame. A friend of mine tried to buck the HD, he LOST, then he lost many other times, on other inspections. If you try to buck them, your system will be 110% perfect from then on, or it will fail. NEVER, NEVER try to buck the HD, it will not be pretty.

Willis--We must have different types of health dept's.The one by me is nothing basically more than a bunch of ''engineers'',and I use that term EXTREMELY loosely who used to work for our areas largest engineering firm.Yes,they were fired for incompetence and are basically rejects.I don't mean to go off-topic here but I am constantly pointing out things to them and I usually get my way.Case in point was a woman inspector{who lost her job at daddy's eng.firm,a different one} who didn't like my having a 90* elbow coming into my D box.I pointed out to her this is just gray water and the outlets in the D box had 90*s--what's the diff? She said no,the code book doesn't allow it--OK,so after 34 years of hundreds of systems and BOH approvals,I'm now in violation.So I take 2 45*s,stick them end to end,put it in,she loves it!!!! How nice--now I'm in compliance:rolleyes:If I see something I disagree with I go straight to the top engineer in the BOH--he's great,knows his stuff and feels the same about me--he'll usually back me up.
Guess it is a little different whereI am. I dont stir the pot, so to speak, it will come back to us (my area) I also have to point out, different things wrong with their permit, but I do it in a way that doesnt make them look bad. I have to play the game, or pay the price later.
Good Luck, thats all

[tuney443]

So it would be similar to a french drain then I think. Basically, cut your trench/swale, line with a barrier cloth (can't think of the name for the right type for this right now) a little stone, a drain tile (typically a 4" o-pipe) and cover with more stone. Catches all the run off coming down the hill, and prevents it from flooding the area/ground where (in this case) the field is. Got it. Guess I've done a few and didn't realize it. :cool:

It is a french drain-no different. I just don't use that terminollogy.It sounds to me like something weekend warriors use.By me,on any blueprints drawn up by an engineer,it's always a curtain drain. Geotextile cloth is what you were trying to remember.

[digger242j]

a little stone, a drain tile (typically a 4" o-pipe) and cover with more stone.

Just so nobody interprets that as "cover with a little more stone"--A curtain drain has the stone going all the way to the surface. I've always referred to the drain around the perimeter of a building foundation as a "french drain", but in that case, the stone is only covering the pipe at the base of the wall, because that's where water would usually find its way into the basement.

A curtain drain is, as the name implies, similar to a curtain, that covers a window from top to bottom. Be sure you understand the distinction.

I googled "curtain drain detail", and this was among the first page of results:

http://www.greenhomebuilders.com/septicpage.htm

Happily, it's concerned with just the sort of septic field situation being discussed here.

[BIGDAN315]

To all who is wondering, I am going with a french drain as soon as weather allows. It is way to wet right now to do anything. The engineer has agreed to pay for part of the costs and I will probably eat the rest. Thanks to all for your help...:notworthy