Fuel treatments

[salesrep]

With the new and unimproved ultra-low sulfur fuel coming ( #2 fuel quality is decreasing). Who runs additives? Remember the last time fuel went to low sulfur content and the subsequent injector and pump problems?
Comments please.

[salesrep]

I thought that I would re-open this topic. I have begun to see much additional interest in my premium fuel sales ( we have a fuel improver that makes #2 diesel fuel a premium).

At the very least I think y"all ought to be adding a lubricity additive to your machines. The new ultra-low sulphur fuel has already began to go from 1500 ppm to an ultimate gaol of 15 ppm.

Sulphur adds lubricity. Without lubricity the risks of pump and injector failures will escalate without preventative measures.

Ask your fuel supplier what add pkgs he is indeed adding. Do not accept the generic answer of "We already treat our fuel"

They may indeed treat the fuel. But with what? anti-corrosion? biocide? lubricity?, detergency pkg? all of the above?

[nobull1]

Salesrep,
So what's the scoop on yours? Biocide, cetane improver,emulsify-demulsify,lower waxing point,lubricity etc etc. What is your opinion on emulsifiers as opposed to demulsifying. Do you have a general statement or does it pertain to certain mfg's. This seems to be a sticker for some mfg's, some like emulsifying some like demulsifying.

[salesrep]

"So what's the scoop on yours? Biocide, cetane improver,emulsify-demulsify,lower waxing point,lubricity etc etc. "
All of the above. Plus cummins L-10 detergency n-14 corrosion specs.

As far as general statement goes. I think that both emulsifiers and de-emulsifiers can do a good job. The key is getting a product that performs as said.

[puredieselpower]

Salesrep is schaeffer's fuel additive good to add to our diesel trucks, with the new fuel we all are going to have put additives in our diesels or mix with biodiesels.

[dayexco]

puredieselpower...your vendor must sell you some crap fuel when you're in the market to throw a bunch of additives in it.

[puredieselpower]

puredieselpower...your vendor must sell you some crap fuel when you're in the market to throw a bunch of additives in it.
Know just wondering what is going to happen next year when the lower sulfer fuels will be out.

[dayexco]

puredieselpower, you need to go to your fuel vendor, and say.......this is the minimum requirements my equipment manufacturer requires, can you meet it? if he can't, drive up and down the road until you find somebody that can.

[puredieselpower]

it doesn't matter after jan 07 all vendors will be introducing the new ultra low sulfer fuels.

[dayexco]

i might be naive and foolish, but i truly can't believe that after jan. 7th...virtually every diesel engine in the united states is going to start to run like crap. or have bad fuel economy. that's not really the way the system works. i'm old enough to remember what everybody said when the talk was that we were going to have to burn unleaded gas in our vehicles...we survived.

[puredieselpower]

I understand what you are saying, and however lower sulfer ( sulfer being a lubercant) there are bound to be problems. the reason why additives are important.

[dayexco]

what can i say? spend your money dude

[tylermckee]

I dump a little astroglide into the tank each time i fill up. :wink2

[puredieselpower]

what can i say? spend your money dude
Not that i am trying to overspend, i just want some answeres, and keep my investment running

[salesrep]

2 cents worth.

ulsd and the quality of #2 fuel should be a concern to all. Many, many, many variables. Supply vs. demand for both additives and base fuel plays a large part: before the hurricanes set the industry back. Bio also is loosely regulated ( ask the minnesotians). I believe fuel treatments are an absolute necessity for preventitive maintenance. If you get a 1 or 2 % fuel economy gain by using treaments it pays for itself and more.

The pipelines will ship out the new ulsd with 3-6 ppm of sulfur to ensure that the end user gets the 15 ppms as per reg. (down from the curretn 500ppm)
This will be a very dry fuel and while lubricity additives will be added I do not think for one minute that the big boys will put extra in, so y'all better.
The older machines are at risk from a lubricity standpoint ie injectors, pumps.
While the newer 07 machine darn well better run ulsd as they are not designed for the "old" fuel.

"Oem's did not quite get thelubricity performance level we would prefer fpr diesel fuel" program leader for detroit diesel.

80% of all fuel is to be ulsd by oct 15. Newer machines will also strain the oil due to the egr deal.
Be prepared for prices to go up 5-9 cents just on the ulsd costs.

Treatments make good economic sense. A good one will boost fuel economy, give you a cleaner burn, add lubricity and all in all help prevent precious downtime and/or repair bills.

Variables, variables, variables and uncertainty are the biggest concern. Keep in mind as well that any and all tests done would have been done with the "best"fuel under typically ideal circumstances. NOT the real world and surely not the environment many of you work in.

The new hfrr device designed to measure lubricity req. cost 60k. Every fuel jobber in the country will not purchase these. Even the super jobbers are hesitant.

Imo. Some will do just fine. Some type of machines will perform as usual, some will not. Some fuel will be up to par, many batches will not be. Some machines will show effects sooner or later or not at all.

Historically ( pre ulsd) operations that run consistant fuel treatments have less fuel related problems and get better fuel economy and tht will be even more important in the future. Just cheap insurance.

Mark

[dayexco]

i'm 22 miles from minnesota border, i've run bio diesel in my equipment, trucks the last 2 yrs...knock on wood, zero problems. remember when they said they were taking the lead out of gas? that there wouldn't be a valve seat left because of it? i know of very few people that were dumping additives in their vehicles to get by back then. i'm not telling anybody to buy or not to buy whatever they want that makes them feel good about extending the life of their engines, nor do i have possession of any scientific studies that prove the use of them cost effective or a waste of money. i just go by what my fuel vendor tells me. he sells fuel additives on his shelf also. he's telling me to save my money.

[puredieselpower]

i'm 22 miles from minnesota border, i've run bio diesel in my equipment, trucks the last 2 yrs...knock on wood, zero problems. remember when they said they were taking the lead out of gas? that there wouldn't be a valve seat left because of it? i know of very few people that were dumping additives in their vehicles to get by back then. i'm not telling anybody to buy or not to buy whatever they want that makes them feel good about extending the life of their engines, nor do i have possession of any scientific studies that prove the use of them cost effective or a waste of money. i just go by what my fuel vendor tells me. he sells fuel additives on his shelf also. he's telling me to save my money.
Ask your vendor about the jan. 2007 change in fuel.

[salesrep]

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/business/stories.nsf/0/169220FAC52B68B486257182000AA1D8?OpenDocument

[tuney443]

Dayexco--Do yourself a favor and log in to the Diesel Place.Go to the posts on fuel treatment and you will hear from real experts on the need for extra lubricity.Most of these guys are only trying to be helpful,most are NOT trying to sell you anything.I have regularly used Howes in all my diesels for years--for both lubricity and anti-gelling year round--NEVER had a problem and good piece of mind.Regards.

[Jeff D.]

I would like to have my own storage tank and use the same vendor exclusively so that fuel quality could be less of a mystery.But,as of yet,I'm forced to buy my fuel "on the road" where you really don't know for sure what you're getting until it's too late.

I use additives 100% of the time during the winter.I know that NO supplier adds enough additives,or blends in enough #1,to prevent icing and gelling when the temp drops well below zero.Added to that the fact that diesel fuel has a high propensity for water contamination,and you're left on the side of the road trying to thaw frozen fuel lines and change filters at 25 below.I've had it happen many,many times.Most winters it happens at least once.

Since most heavy equipment isn't operated at -25 that scenario shouldn't be an issue.But the water contamination problem could be even worse with a storage tank that has low fuel turnover,and/or isn't monitored closely.If you happen to fuel,especially just after the tank was filled and any water present has been stirred up enough to become suspended in the fuel,you could get water in you equipment.With enough additives the water can be encapsulated into small droplets,and kept from being absorbed into the filters,or possibly getting through the filters,and splitting an injector.(injector tips can/will split if water is compressed within the injector.)

So,for extreme cold or water contaminated fuel,I'd think additives are almost a necessity,and it's doubtful the supplier/vendor could predict either problem very accurately,without personally monitoring your storage tank,or knowing the weather conditions when the fuel will be burnt.Also,water is where the bacteria that grows in fuel starts at(the thin layer where water and fuel meet),and it can grow to ruin all the fuel in a storage tank.Additives can help control that too,if the supplier hasn't already added any.

If you've a clean storage tank,water trap dispenser filters,no extreme cold operating,then extra additives may be a waste of money.

But then there's still the low sulphur/low lubrication question??????

[dayexco]

tuney, i don't need to visit any websites. we typically run 8-10k hrs on our equipment before we trade them in. i've YET to do any injector/pump work on anything other than a 7.3 ford turbo in a pickup of ours that had 170k miles on it. as i said before, if it makes you feel better to buy, use the stuff, have at it!!! my experience has shown me it doesn't make economic sense for us to do so.

[Orchard Ex]

I was listening to the trucking radio this morning and they had somebody on discussing the '07 fuel and it's impacts. The gist that I got from it was that nobody is totally sure what effect it'll have on the older equipment (everything before '07) yet. One thing I heard was that the new fuel tends to have a "solvent effect" and will clean out your fuel system - and deposit all the crud in your filters. They said we'll need to change out the filters alot at first. I've heard that same thing about higher percentage bio-diesel. Anybody experience that firsthand? Dayexco - sounds like you did fine, could you notice any difference between bio and petro diesel?

[salesrep]

Diesel fuel news.
"Ulsd could trigger other problems-besides lubricity"

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CYH/is_3_6/ai_82780631

Good read.

[puredieselpower]

couldn't the major fuel companies put additives in before they ship the fuel out?

[salesrep]

Absolutely. And they do. The question is to what extent, quality, amounts etc. Same with suppliers and jobbers at the other end. Dayexco's supplier is a good example of a jobber that very likely puts good additives and/or his terminal does as such.

There are many good additives and many that provide next to nothing. Lubricity, anti-corrosion, injector cleaners, biocides, detergents, cetane improvers, anti-gels, deicers are some. The questions to ask a jobber, supplier, or manufacturer of additives is which additives, how much, how many and what quality. It cost them money to put additives in and most put some in.
The better quality and number of additives they put in the lower their margin, the better the fuel.

[dayexco]

orchardex, i buy ethanol and bio diesel because #1, i live in an ag state and want to support my local economy, #2, i've done the plant piping for 3 ethanol plants. ethanol on air cooled small engines has caused us some vapor lock grief, not bad, liveable...and i can't notice a bit of difference in performance/economy with bio diesel. anytime the govt. mandates something, there are those who rush with the "sky is falling" scenario. i'm going to cross that bridge when it comes. i'm not going to worry about it until then. should i have the lubricity problems or other problems that have been mentioned in this thread, i'll first talk to my vendor, and if he nor any of his competitors address it, i suppose i'll end up buying whatever additive necessary to meet my needs. but i refuse to waste money on something that i don't need at the moment.

[salesrep]

"i refuse to waste money on something that i don't need at the moment."
And there lies the rub.

[dayexco]

"there are those who rush with the "sky is falling" scenario. i'm going to cross that bridge when it comes". and there's my response

[puredieselpower]

Salesrep do you have any samples of the additives you sell?

[salesrep]

go to www.schaefferoil.com and pull up the retail locater to see if there are any in your area. if not pm or email me and we'll figure out something.

[Dozerboy]

With dayexco running bio there is no need for an additive except for biocides if he is storing for a while. I run an additive in my personal truck, but I wouldn't even think of it in equipment. That $$ could best be spent on a bypass oil filter which can double the life of your motor not some stupid additive the may help some.

[salesrep]

One point that seems to be overlloked here is the cost of additives is less than the fuel economy gain. You will save money by using less fuel.

[dayexco]

can you give me some substantiated data? like a cost per hr. in using these fuel additives. i'll give you an example....i have one piece of equipment that burns 8 gals per hr. religiously, today's price on dyed fuel was $2.51. how much per hour can your additives save me? and is there a guarantee to the savings? it's a no brainer, if you can guarantee me that my cost per hr. in fuel costs will go down, i'll buy it!

[salesrep]

First off am not trying to sell you guys anything. In fact Schaeffers changed policy on me making it difficult for the time being to "sell" new customers over the net. I am a believer in fuel treatments and certainly ours. I have seen way too many documentations proving it. And way too many documented inconsistencies in fuel.
First hand I have a fleet of 30 trucks that saved over 40k in fuel costs last year using our fuel treatments.

Here is the math

8 gal per hour times 8 hours times 2.51 equals $160.64 in fuel costs a day.
5% economy gain 7.6 burn times 8 hours times 2.51 lowers the fuel cost to $152.60
3% $155.82
1% $159.03
treat cost is a penny and a half per gal (wholesale)or in this case 12 cents per day.
Even at a 1% increase you'll save money and do your machine some favors.

In this case a 5% economy gain working 250 days a year

160.64
less152.60
plus.12

160.64
152.72
$7.92 times 250 working days equates to a yearly savings of $1980.00 on this one machine.

Just a moderate 3% gain comes u to a yearly savings of $1175.00

i think my math is correct.


And yes I guarentee my customers a 4% economy gain.
I have never had to pay off.

[dayexco]

email me at genday@iw.net, you showed me the math, i'll try some

[Dozerboy]

How much do you have to buy to get the wholesale price?

[salesrep]

Retail Pricing ( which i can order for you)for our treatments for the 137 premium diesel treats is $155 for a 4/1 gal case (treat cost 2 cents per gal). Each gal treats 2000 gal of fuel or 24/16 oz case a bottle treats 125 gal of fuel.
$156.
Orders over $300 of any combo of products gets free shipping. Under 300 will incur an additional hazmat charge.

if you can find a local dealer you may be able to get wholesale pricing while the same 300 free shipping or under plus shipping will apply.

[puredieselpower]

I wanted to take a second to thank you for putting my order together. I know that it was a small one compared to what you are use to, but i am very happy with services none the less. I have been running the soy shield, noticed a huge improvement in the way the truck runs and sounds, plus big fuel gain while towing ( estimated 1-2 mpg ).

Just wanted to say thanks .:notworthy :thumbsup

[N.B.CONCRETE]

We use power service.

[jughead]

someone correct me if i am wrong but i have read 2 or 3 articles that say sulphur has no lubricating properties. the problem is the process that removes the sulphur also removes the lubricity of the fuel.

[jperfect]

i had to replace my injection pump back in april and was to by everybody that i talk to, to ad some typ of lubrcate to my feul. so i add one qt. of ATF to everytank. thats what i beleave.:usa

[Lashlander]

I've heard 2 cycle outboard motor oil works great. Anyone hear of this or try it?

[tuney443]

someone correct me if i am wrong but i have read 2 or 3 articles that say sulphur has no lubricating properties. the problem is the process that removes the sulphur also removes the lubricity of the fuel.

That is quite correct.