Slow movin Michigan Loader

[Tom Spivak]

My Michigan 75 A with 3-71 Detroit is running very well, sounds good, and has good hydrahlic pressure on lift pistons.
My complaint with is it has very poor motive power in anything but low range.
Any ideas on where to start looking for problems?
Filter has been changed.

[KMSEXC]

My Michigan 75 A with 3-71 Detroit is running very well, sounds good, and has good hydrahlic pressure on lift pistons.
My complaint with is it has very poor motive power in anything but low range.
Any ideas on where to start looking for problems?
Filter has been changed.

How Old is the Fuel in Tank

[Tom Spivak]

How Old is the Fuel in Tank

The machine runs fine with lots of RPM, filters are changed, fuel is 4 days old this is a drive line issue.
Thanks for the reply.

[Tom Spivak]

On a hunch, I drained the transmission and got 63 US quarts of nasty looking fluid out. I was sure that was'nt right.
I refilled with 16 US quarts of TDH and it now drives nearly perfect, or at least faster than I would ever want to drive it.
I run it for 6 hours in the bush through heavy mud with no trouble.
Another forum member sent me a manual today and it confirms that the trans was overfilled. It calls for type A trans fluid, what's the equivalent of that?
Also, I can't get this thing to shut down with the governor shut off lever, idle is set low and motor runs absolutely perfect with no drips or smoke.

[Komatsu 150]

On a hunch, I drained the transmission and got 63 US quarts of nasty looking fluid out. I was sure that was'nt right.
I refilled with 16 US quarts of TDH and it now drives nearly perfect, or at least faster than I would ever want to drive it.
I run it for 6 hours in the bush through heavy mud with no trouble.
Another forum member sent me a manual today and it confirms that the trans was overfilled. It calls for type A trans fluid, what's the equivalent of that?
Also, I can't get this thing to shut down with the governor shut off lever, idle is set low and motor runs absolutely perfect with no drips or smoke.

Hi Tom, Transmission fluid is just Dexron, regular ATF. That transmission will always check somewhat overfull with the engine off as the torque converter drains down into it. It's supposed to be checked running. If it's low you add fluid into the converter slowly and wait for it to show up at the transmission check plug. If it's overfull by much, machine will be sluggish as you've found. This usually means that hydraulic oil is transferring from the hydraulic system through one of the pumps. As long as it's not too severe you can run a long time that way - just drain the excess occasionally and keep an eye on hydraulic level. Michigan allowed ATF in the Hydraulic system so we always ran that way and it avoids mixing two different oils.

[Tom Spivak]

Does that mean I should add fluid while the motor is running?
I will drain, clean the screen, and put new fluid in after it runs a bit to get the crap loosened up.
Thanks for your help buddy, the manual is great, wish machines came with info like that now days.

[Komatsu 150]

Does that mean I should add fluid while the motor is running?
I will drain, clean the screen, and put new fluid in after it runs a bit to get the crap loosened up.
Thanks for your help buddy, the manual is great, wish machines came with info like that now days.

Thats right, like an automatic in a pick up or car, and it does take a little time for the oil to make it's way to the trans. I should mention that there was a service bulletin to retrofit the early machines with a transmission filter as they were built without one. I think there's a page at the back of the manual that shows it. One of our machines had it and I installed a filter on the machine that didn't.

[Tom Spivak]

Thanks Komatsu, it's 0 degrees farenhiet today, so I get to find out how this thing starts in the cold. You've been a great help, much apppreciated.

[Tom Spivak]

This thing started on first crank with 1 truck battery and no block heat. I'm happy. But can't gfet it to shut down with governor shut off. Idle is set low.

[surfer-joe]

You can use a C2/3 fluid as well, basically same as ATF. Also SAE 10wt TDTO. I think Komatsu150 is right, you likely have hydraulic oil leaking into converter from hydraulic system thru pump shaft seals. It's not a big nor bad job changing out or resealing the pump, just kinda messy. Generally, an overfull converter will indicate as overheated oil on converter temperature gauge, but those don't always work either.

Good Luck!

[Komatsu 150]

You can use a C2/3 fluid as well, basically same as ATF. Also SAE 10wt TDTO. I think Komatsu150 is right, you likely have hydraulic oil leaking into converter from hydraulic system thru pump shaft seals. It's not a big nor bad job changing out or resealing the pump, just kinda messy. Generally, an overfull converter will indicate as overheated oil on converter temperature gauge, but those don't always work either.

Good Luck!

We originally changed Hydraulic to ATF to help cold weather steering. Back when we had winter, the machine often loaded snow in below 0 temps. The ATF helped quite a bit.

[Tom Spivak]

Based on what I found, the experience of the previous owner, and the great info from all you guys, I convinced that you fellows are correct about the hydralic leaking into the tranny.
I'll keep an eye on the levels and when time permits I'll take the pumps off and do all the seals.
Thanks fellas!

[AxleSnapper]

Good find Tom! Hope everything keeps holding together for you.

[Countryboy]

Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums AxleSnapper! :drinkup

[rktdispatch]

We have been working on our Michigan 75B replacing transmission filter. Accociated Crane in Oregon tells us not to use Dextron ATF because Dextron has changed formula and will now damage the clutch pack. True or not?

Also we are having problem with the transmission disengage not acuating properly - seems to take a long time to build air pressure to make it work.

Anyone have a shop manuel I can buy?

[Tom Spivak]

Tractorparts.com
They have a manual.

[rktdispatch]

Thanks for the tip - I will try them on Monday.

[rktdispatch]

The discussion on transmissions was helpful to me. I realize I got in a little late - but thanks anyway.

[Countryboy]

Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums rktdispatch! :drinkup

[rktdispatch]

Still having trouble finding a service manual for the 75B - tractorparts.com called back this morning and said they had none. Any other ideas?

[snowshoveler]

i have been reading this topic with interest because a neighbor has an older michigan loader with transmission problems of its own.
i have finally decided to join up so maybee i can learn about about these old machines.
i beleive the local machine is a 75 b but it is quite old .motor runs well but loader picked up more than it could carry .
after rear wheels came back to the bottom the tranny decided to start venting fluid.
tranny has been out and in more times than folks remember.
it works just wont hold fluid.
any ides would be helpfull.
ive been thinking of buying if priced right and if i could repair it for slightly less than the price of a new house.
thanks chris
ps when i can i will post a pic and numbers in a new thread ,probably belongs in the old iron thread.
thanks for letting me in

[Komatsu 150]

If it's like our old 75 the proper level for fluid in the trans is quite low. If oil is coming out the vent it usually means one of the pump shaft seals is leaking oil and transferring oil from the hydraulic tank to the converter housing which drains into the trans and overfills it. In other words nothing to do with the trans at all. Hope that might help.

[surfer-joe]

The single best cure for transmission problems (Clark) in Michigan loaders, is to jack the loaders up high and slide an equivalent Caterpillar loader in under them. In working with the model 75, 125, 275, 280 and the 475's, I experienced tranny problems with every one of them, some much more serious and expensive than others. Clark and Michigan just never seemed to get the bugs out and working on a 475 tranny in a surface coal mine in Kentucky at three in the morning in August is no fun at all.

Michigan should have wised up early and installed Allison transmissions in their loader models. The Clarks caused more than tranny problems however. Because of the tremendous torque and rapid acceleration of the 16V Detroit engines in the 475 models, the bell housings to the transmissions would crack and the tranny mounting bolts would break. The engine mounts would also break out, never did find a good cure for that. The 475's could eat a bushel basket of brand new clutch packs before noon every day. The dealer couldn't keep up with the rebuilds we needed for these machines.

These machines all had more than their fair share of hydraulic problems too, which left you with wondering why in the hell you bought one in the first place. Most operators liked them however for their speed and power. Much faster than the Cats of the time, up till the 42X 992C hit the market, and actually still faster than those, but that's about the time their undependability kicked in.

[JDOFMEMI]

Joe

Good to see you back. I have missed your stories.

[rktdispatch]

I am still looking for a manual for a 75 B Michigan Clark and also one for a Cat 920. The Clark seems to have an air acuated transmission lock out. If the air pressure is a little low it will not shift into gear. Can anyone tell me how to fix or bypass this feature?

[Tom Spivak]

i have been reading this topic with interest because a neighbor has an older michigan loader with transmission problems of its own.
i have finally decided to join up so maybee i can learn about about these old machines.
i beleive the local machine is a 75 b but it is quite old .motor runs well but loader picked up more than it could carry .
after rear wheels came back to the bottom the tranny decided to start venting fluid.
tranny has been out and in more times than folks remember.
it works just wont hold fluid.
any ides would be helpfull.
ive been thinking of buying if priced right and if i could repair it for slightly less than the price of a new house.
thanks chris
ps when i can i will post a pic and numbers in a new thread ,probably belongs in the old iron thread.
thanks for letting me in
Komatsu is correct on this, he advised me correctly before that the trans level was high, I had fluid blowing out the breather.
The pumps seals are leaking for sure. If you have to top up your hydralic more than usual then thats the problem. The pumps leak into the converter. The proper level is at the check plug. Mine was so bad the resivoir would drain empty into the trans.
If you take one pump out, take them all out so you can be sure you fixed the problem.Fluid is too exspensive these days. You will save the cost of the seals many times over. Machine will run better with correct fluid in trans as well.

[snowshoveler]

I went and got some pics of the loader this evening.
I will mention that its pretty old in my opinion although the lettering says 75b.
Sorta looks like a fishbowl on 4 doughnuts.
And yes it does have a cab on it with heat (yipee).
main reason i would like this is for snow removal at home. Not planning to go making money with it. Might be pretty handy around my small sawmill as well.
So as its looking so far it just needs the pumps overhauled.
I did take pics of the underside as well and it looks like at least 1 of the pumps is external to the tranny.
While doing a quick look over it seems to me that most parts including the tranny arent excessive in size or weight.
I do realize they are still larger than what i normally wrench on (small engine tech) but i do have the tools and some of the ability.
The fellow that tried to repair it said the engine was rebuilt shortly before it had its tranmission problem. Of course the engine is my favorite a detroit.
Thanks for now,ill post pics when allowed
Chris

[snowshoveler]

here are some pics of the 75a that thinks its a b
thanks for looking
chris

[Komatsu 150]

That is an A no doubt. I think I'll tell how my 175A became a B. When I repainted it the only decals available from Michigan were 175B -- so I upgraded the machine!

[Tom Spivak]

I agree, 75A, I envy the cab. Sure wish I could score one, mines homemade and OK but they look pretty goofy without the factory cab.
Sending my head out for new injectors and sleeves next week. Yippee! no more diesel in the oil. I can get back to work.

[Komatsu 150]

I agree, 75A, I envy the cab. Sure wish I could score one, mines homemade and OK but they look pretty goofy without the factory cab.
Sending my head out for new injectors and sleeves next week. Yippee! no more diesel in the oil. I can get back to work.

Tom, I don't know that there ever was a factory cab. Our 75A has a rollback deal. The windshield stays put and the whole rest of the cab rolls back on tracks like a World War 2 fighter plane. Makes it easier to get out of but always let lots of cold air in. Our 175A has two side doors. The right side is an emergency exit with no hinges, pull the handle and the door falls off. The left side has a huge single hinge and the door pivots straight up like an exotic car.

[Tom Spivak]

One of the guys up here has one with a door that slides back and the other I think may have been like you say with a hinge but it always falls off so he never has it on unless it's bug season, then he wires it on.

[AxleSnapper]

God Clark made some wacky machines!

[Blaster]

How much difference between the 75B and the 75C models? Fluid levels and types of fluid similar?

[Tom Spivak]

My manual only shows 75A, 75C, 75R.
Would help to know approx. year and engine.
Pictures are best and what engine is in it.

[Riley]

On a hunch, I drained the transmission and got 63 US quarts of nasty looking fluid out. I was sure that was'nt right.
I refilled with 16 US quarts of TDH and it now drives nearly perfect, or at least faster than I would ever want to drive it.
I run it for 6 hours in the bush through heavy mud with no trouble.
Another forum member sent me a manual today and it confirms that the trans was overfilled. It calls for type A trans fluid, what's the equivalent of that?
Also, I can't get this thing to shut down with the governor shut off lever, idle is set low and motor runs absolutely perfect with no drips or smoke.

I have a Michigan 125A with the same problem. It moves very slowly when first started but then gets somewhat better as it warms up. The problem seems to be getting worse, to the point where it's hard to dig loose sand. The loader has the Detroit 3-71 but I think that it was swapped in at some point.

Do you guys think that it could be the same problem. If so, can you tell me where is the correct place to check the trans fluid level?

Thanks.

[Tom Spivak]

There is a fluid check plug on the front side of the tranny about a foot above the drain plug.
If the fluid level is too high,
it's almost a sure bet that the pump seals for the steering, hydralics, or whatever are leaking down back into the tranny.
They share common fluid and when the seals go bad the hydralics drain into the tranny.
When it's full it will produce about 63 to 64 qt.s fluid when drained.
Any more than that and it comes out the vent at the top of the tranny housing.
You can use dexron.
If you go back on the old posts on this thread you may find more info, but it's the seals, you can bet on it.
Taking the pumps out is a dirty do it yourself project, but take the pumps to a shop and get them rebuilt, it's such a pain in the buttocks to take them out that you don't want to do it again.
Theres a bunch of hose to get out of the way to take them out.
This would be a good time to get all the gunky fluid out as well.
It will take a lot of fluid changes to get it clear again if ever.

[Tom Spivak]

Not sure if a 125A is the same but there is a drain plug at the bottom of the trans and a second one on the side about a foot up, this is the level check.

I have a Michigan 125A with the same problem. It moves very slowly when first started but then gets somewhat better as it warms up. The problem seems to be getting worse, to the point where it's hard to dig loose sand. The loader has the Detroit 3-71 but I think that it was swapped in at some point.

Do you guys think that it could be the same problem. If so, can you tell me where is the correct place to check the trans fluid level?

Thanks.

[Riley]

Tom,

I found the drain and check plugs on the trans. I pulled the check plug slowly expecting a flood of fluid coming out. Instead I found nothing. I stuck my little finger in the hole and could not reach fluid. I added 2 gallons and I could finally reach the fluid with my finger but just barely. I started the loader and it drove 100% better. I'll get a couple more gallons of dextron and fill it up to the check hole.

I have to thank you for your help with this. I really appreciate the guidance. I'll be sure to keep an eye on the trans fluid from now on.

[Tom Spivak]

The next thing you want to find out is where the original fluid went to in the first place.
Whatch for leaks and drips.
Most often from the shift rods or seals.
Good luck, glad I could be of help in a round about way.

[Komatsu 150]

Tom,

I found the drain and check plugs on the trans. I pulled the check plug slowly expecting a flood of fluid coming out. Instead I found nothing. I stuck my little finger in the hole and could not reach fluid. I added 2 gallons and I could finally reach the fluid with my finger but just barely. I started the loader and it drove 100% better. I'll get a couple more gallons of dextron and fill it up to the check hole.

I have to thank you for your help with this. I really appreciate the guidance. I'll be sure to keep an eye on the trans fluid from now on.

I don't know about 55's in particular. Just assuming the transmissions are like the 75 they are supposed to be checked at idle. If filled to check plug with engine off they will be very low on oil when running. The converter housing drains into the transmission when off. This is why the shifter rods leak much more when parked as the oil level rises. If this doesn't apply please ignore.

[division1]

i have a 125a loader wont move wen you start it takes a min to gointo gear. Help?

[Kiwi Will]

I to have a very slow moving Mich' 75B. I have been reading at this site & thought I'd try some 10w oil added to the trans. No other place was obvious & I really didn't know how to get the oil into the trans but tipped it down a small hose by the LH step up to the cab. It has no cap or dip stick so don't know what the level is or should be. Anyway, after about 3 quarts & she was up and moving.
My question are;
1) What should the transmission take in volume of oil?
2) Is there a dip stick normally fitted?
3) If I find a dip stick or make one up, does the oil level get checked when engine is running like car?

[Komatsu 150]

If the trans works OK after the first minute of waiting then it sounds normal-just their nature. The oil from the bell housing compartment drains into the transmission when the engine is shut off. The oil level on the old machines was checked at the transmission plug with machine running after a waiting period and the oil was added at the bell housing plug slowly until oil came out the trans plug. There used to be cute little decals on the frame telling you this.

[Komatsu 150]

Just an additional point. If the oil is level with the transmission plug with engine stopped then you are probably several GALLONS low.

[division1]

thank you. i cheacked it running i just serviced trans took off pan and cleaned then cleaned out the screen put it all back togeather and put almost 6 gallans in it when it running if you pull out the pug it slowly comes out. and i also replaced the filter in the lines coming from the radietor. if i use it for a while then let it sit for 10 min it does same thing. but when running it works proper. i was told mabye charge pump?

[division1]

If the trans works OK after the first minute of waiting then it sounds normal-just their nature. The oil from the bell housing compartment drains into the transmission when the engine is shut off. The oil level on the old machines was checked at the transmission plug with machine running after a waiting period and the oil was added at the bell housing plug slowly until oil came out the trans plug. There used to be cute little decals on the frame telling you this.

i found out i have a early 125a and the charge pump isnt on the back of the converter. do you know were it is i dont want it to leve me stranded on a snowy day. i just changed all filters on trans. and no diffrence it didnt do this before thow. someone told me mabye u could shim a presure regulator??? no idea about that

[Komatsu 150]

The regulator is adjustable but you need to check pressures. If it's running OK after a period I can't see the regulator being the problem. I'm not familiar with the 125 in particular. Our machines (75 and 175)have all three pumps on the back of the converter housing if I remember right. Just one pump for all the trans functions-I don't remember a separate charge pump like you see now. The other two pumps were loader and steering.

[Kiwi Will]

Ahhhh!!! Thanks Komatsu.
Maybe after crawling underneath ol' girl a dozen or so times for each problem, I might (after making enquiries on this here forum) get to know what I am doing. :-)
Does anyone know of a workshop manual either for sale or even better, on the net that can be accessible for a slow brainers like (and of course including) me?

[division1]

ya mine is not like the picture. all i have is on pump on the back of the converter. and i have a drivshaft that goes into the trans. im confused. all the lines that go to and from the converter go into the trans. i have fully restored this loader hope it is sompten that can be fixed.....

[division1]

The regulator is adjustable but you need to check pressures. If it's running OK after a period I can't see the regulator being the problem. I'm not familiar with the 125 in particular. Our machines (75 and 175)have all three pumps on the back of the converter housing if I remember right. Just one pump for all the trans functions-I don't remember a separate charge pump like you see now. The other two pumps were loader and steering.

my steering pump is run on inline with the belts on the engine also thanks for anyhelp

[Bigstevex4]

The air you are talking about is declutch if that spool is stuck it will dump clutch psi did you take any pressures clutch conv in and out check stall speeds?

[Tom Spivak]

Did'nt know that Komatsu, thanks for that info.
Just an additional point. If the oil is level with the transmission plug with engine stopped then you are probably several GALLONS low.

[division1]

The air you are talking about is declutch if that spool is stuck it will dump clutch psi did you take any pressures clutch conv in and out check stall speeds?

no. it aleays goes in gear thow. just hopen it not the trans pump!

[Bigstevex4]

The transmission pump would be a cheap fix.

[division1]

any idea how big of a snow box a 125a will push its got the gas 6 cyl

[John DiMartino]

I read this thread with interest,as I have a older 75A. I guess here I thought I had a 75A,but my machine is much larger than the ones pictured here,as well as being articulated.Mines got a 4-71 in it as well.

[mourafetis]

Hello guys,
I do not know if your questions are still valid, but I may be able to help with most of your transmission problems. If there is still something, just repost ot...

[oldseabee]

Some early 125A torque convertor's had an internal charge pump so the pump on the back of the convertor would then be for the hydraulics. I believe that it was a C-353 or C-404 designation. The transmission was an R400.