Cummins powered Cat 623F

[RollOver Pete]

While in the Riverside yard today, something strange caught my eye.
This machine went in for a re-power some time ago.
I guess Cat couldn't come up with tier 3 engines at the time.
So a Cummins engine was used.
I have no idea how this 623 runs? I'm sure it does just fine.
The cost for the Cummins re-power was 50% of a Cat re-power.
:cool2

[RollOver Pete]

:cool2

[Steve Frazier]

I'm not up on the Cat number, what kind of machine is it? The inside looks like it might be a truck of some kind? Any idea what the lever that looks like a trolley brake does?

[Construct'O]

I'm not up on the Cat number, what kind of machine is it? The inside looks like it might be a truck of some kind? Any idea what the lever that looks like a trolley brake does?

Steve it is a paddlewheel scraper.

[RollOver Pete]

Here's a link to a Cat623G
That lever is a hyd retarder.
:cool2


http://cmms.cat.com/cmms/servlet/cat.dcs.cmms.servlet.GetModelSummary?dsfFlag=0&&classid=406&langid=en&rgnid=NACD&view=cat&specTab=y&prdname=623G&prdid=623G+2005&familyid=476&subfamilyid=314&subfamilyheader=Scrapers

[John C.]

I have heard of some Detriots being put into 631 scrapers but am a little suprised to see a Cummins put into the 623. It also seems that 400 horsepower might be a little high for that size of machine.

With the price of new scrapers so high, the economics of retrofitting Tier 3 engines into old equipment might work for awhile. Factory dealers have overheads so high they could not possibly compete with a quality jobber for the labor. If you could set up to do a fleet and get a package kit put together there might be an opportunity.

Interesting thread!

[Ross]

QSX15 Pretty good power plant. Can be rated at 550hp easy.

No need for super exclusive software either. (Unlike CAT and Volvo GRR)

When was the unit fitted?

QSX is the new engine and based on the very successful QSK19 unit (older injector model)

Ross

[RollOver Pete]

Looks like the engine was manufactured 03/06.
I'd say the re power was the early part of this year.
:cool2

[DPete]

A tier 3 C15 will work I had my 623E done this spring, you have to change the nose and cooling system to get the air to air aftercooling. All 623 G parts from trans foreward. What they did with the Cummins looks pretty clean, I don't know the effect on machine value though. Could be negetive not being Cat. Horsepower is close to the C-15 I think it's rated 385. If it works for them more power to em. DP

[John C.]

It has been awhile since I've been into working on engines but I believe the QSX is completely new. The QSK19 was a marriage between a Komatsu engine and a Cummins electronic system. Cummins still makes the high powered QSK19.

As I recall Cummins basically put new model numbers on their "B", "C" and "M" series engines when they married the electronics to them. I think they became ISB, ISC, and ISM. The 855 series engine became N14s a number of years ago when they installed the electronic package on them.

When you get into the high dollar jobs such as repowers you have to have a machine in the condition that will justify the dollars spent. Most of the time when the engine is shot, the rest of the machine isn't far behind. If you are only doing one it looks like a fools project. If you are doing twenty and someone else is sharing part of the bill it can become cost effective.

Old 631 and larger scrapers might be cost effective if you are going to do enough of them. Those old engines are obsolete to begin with. New engines are not available and many times rebuilding them is cost prohibitive.

The 623 scraper according to my performance hand book was only rated at 300 horsepower for the first model and 330 horsepower for the B and E models. I know the E models have a 3406 engine and I'm sure they would not have had to be upgraded to Tier 3. However it was stated that this was in Riverside and I'm assuming that is the independent nation of California. Does anyone have an idea of the cost of the project?

[DPete]

John, remember this is California so throw common sence aside. A repower is cost effective if the alternative is upgrading to a tier 3 machine. There are regulations in the works that require tier 3 power to be mandatory. It goes by total horsepower for compliance dates.Large contractors and rental companys are either re powering or tring to sell any equipment with unregulated engines to meet their deadline. The air pollution controll district paid for 95% of my 623 repower an incentive hard to pass up if you have a high time engine and are facing regulation compliance anyway. The horsepower on 623 E's was increased to 365 with the Super E when they changed to piston hydraulics. Hope that helps. DP

[RollOver Pete]

I'm not sure of the $ ammount....but I'll find out.
I know that ECCO has been constantly selling off older machines in order to replace or update their fleet.
This is the first re power I've seen.
Like I said, as soon as I get some info, I'll pass it on.
:cool2

[John C.]

Thanks for the replies from both Petes.

I had heard rumblings about the new regs starting to cost big money down there and this thread confirms them.

Here in Washington State they want to find a way to make contractors replace 50% of all non regulated engines by 2011. So far they can't do it because we have a state law that says no government money can go directly to private business. So no government can donate money to the cost of repowering machines. There is no leverage to make private business comply, "yet"

What has been done is that government construction contracts can require that no non regulated engines can run or only a certain percentage of machines with non regulated engines can run on the jobsite.

So far I haven't seen any interest in repowering up here. I do believe it is only a matter of time before the older machinery with non regulated engines will be legislated out of existence.

Any other thoughts?

[637slayer]

what do you mean by repower? at first i thought you guys just meant rebuild, but do you mean like an upgrade for emissions? a totally new motor?the tier 3 motors thats just the new motors that are not polluting the air as much right? i know the days of counting 9 seconds of pure black exhaust smoke are long gone, i do miss that no matter how bad it was for the ozone.sorry to bring up all these old threads im a newbie.

[RollOver Pete]

Yep.
We're talking about pulling a motor and replacing it with an entirely different (EPA) friendly motor.
The first one we did was about 2 years ago in 2005.
OH...BTW, this is my other (side) job where I turn wrenches, haul equipment, pipe, gen sets and anything else the owner needs done.
Babysitting his employees is time+1/2. :avid

Back on subject, We started updating our gen sets about 3 years ago.
In 2005, we re powered a GM671 with a new Caterpillar C9 in our 40something year old drill rig.
The mud pumps will be next.
Our home made pump rig will probably out last everything in the fleet.
Powered by a Chrysler Hemi on propane, that old rig just keeps running and running.

On my first job, the reason they went with a Cummins instead of a Cat re power was that Cat couldn't supply a tier 3 motor at the time.
I guess there is or was a huge demand for them.
I'm guessing that the Cummins was 65-75% of what a Cat costs.
And ya know what, the Cummins runs as good if not better than the Cat while burning 10% less fuel.
:cool:

[RollOver Pete]

:cool:

[RollOver Pete]

:cool:

[RamDodge]

Well, look at that nice old Hemi :) I have a couple of them myself powering two of my 1956 Chrysler New Yorkers. Are the one on your rig a 331 or a 354? It looks like 331, but hard to see from the rear. Great engines for sure, they are responsible for the mighty race for more HP starting in mid-fifties and culminating in 71-72. A proof of what a great engine this is are they used the base block design up to a few years ago. The good old 318/5,2l MoPar engine origins from this even older Hemi.

[RollOver Pete]

I think it's a 331....
but I'm not sure. :beatsme
I'll look into it tomorrow...
:cool:

[alan627b]

Probably a bunch of those old hemi's around CA, up on poles hooked to old air raid sirens. Ever hear of the Victory Siren? Loudest man made siren to date.
Check it out
http://www.victorysiren.com/x/index.htm