Ultra low sulfur fuel ?

[DPete]

Do you or your company use any additives to replace sulfur lubrication in todays fuel? If yes what and at what ratio? DP

[Bob Horrell]

I have been using Power Service. You can buy it at Walmart pretty cheap. Use as directed on the container. I use about 1 1/2 ounces per 5 gallons.
Several years ago I accessed some lab test data on diesel additives and the Power Service came out second on a list of about 15 different brands. Since I can buy it at Walmart cheap, it was a no brainer. Been using it for quite a few years.
My last skiploader had 4,000 hrs on it without ever cleaning the injectors. I ran like a top when I sold it. I have 3,600 hrs on my current one and it runs like new. It will even clean dirty injectors if used in heavier concentrations.

[tuney443]

Been using Howes Lubricator forever and since ULSD,been adding a little 2 stroke oil besides.In my Duramax engine,the very slight rattlin went completely away.

[Dozerboy]

We are testing a bunch of them at DP (http://dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=137922) I will post the findings and I believe we are still taking donations if you wanted to help out.

[OKYLE]

ive been hearing some "horror" stories about Ultra low sulfur fuel....


mainly Gaskets in the fuel pumps beginning to leak, because it wasnt designed for such a shiatty lubricating fuel.

anything like that happening for you guys in heavy equipment?

Ive also been doing a 2 stroke oil container per fill up. Hopefully that lubes it up enough.

[Farmer]

We went low sulpfur in Australia in 2000.

Most vehicles older than 5 years needed pump rebuilds, and this still happens with older imported diesels.

The problem is.
The seals take in a little sulphur over time. When you remove the sulphur the diesel slowly sucks out the sulphur in the seals shrinking them.

This can have 2 effect.

1. Air leak, usually noted in winter. The vehicle may be a little harder to start or it starts as normal but stalls 2 to 3 minutes later.

2. Leak into engine oil. The result can be an over full sump that ends up pushing diesel and oil past the rings causeing run away and eventual engine destruction.

This all sounds really bad, but its a fact and as long as you do your normal maintenance you will notice something wrong and solve it relatively cheaply.

Australia has already been there, apparently Japan is now going through it too, so just watch it.

Rob

[tuney443]

Never heard of that Farmer.Where are you getting that info?If that's true then,probably none of the lubricity additives will do any good, at least to the many seals you mention ,since none that I know of have actual sulphur in them.

[Farmer]

Im getting this info from ( This is in Australia, where we lost sulphur in 2000)
1. Father - Plant mechanic. replaced hundres of pump seals
2. Personal exp - Imorting my own diesel vehicles, replaced seal after 10 months
3. Personal exp - Owning diesels in 2000 replaced seals in both vehicle and tractor in 2001
4. Personal exp - Trucking industry, company i worked for needed to do entire fleet.
5. Member of other forums - Many 4wding friends are having or have had the same issues
6. Captain of my volunteer fire brigade is a diesel injector specialist, and after my first few issues, he exlained it to me.

Early in 2000 when this started, many mechanics just added an electric pump into the tank to pump extra fuel into pump before starting, this turned out to be a temporary fix and actually exacerbated the runaway issue.

Check out these forum threads
http://www.delicaclub.com/viewtopic.php?t=2005&highlight=sulfur
http://www.delicaclub.com/viewtopic.php?t=15327&highlight=stall
http://www.delicaclub.com/viewtopic.php?t=14597&highlight=stall

There are hundreds of other posts about it too.

[tuney443]

So Farmer,just to clarify,are you saying that the lack of sulphur alone is the cause of seal failure?If that's true,then job security will be fantastic for diesel mechanics in the states fairly shortly.Have you heard of any additive over there to replace the lost sulphur to keep seals pliable?

[Dualie]

I have been adding 1 OZ Of cheep walmart Two stoke oil for every gallon of diesel fuel in my pre-2003 equipment.

it really seems to help ALOT. before when running the un treated ULSD in my F-800 boom truck it would start to smoke you out on a jobsite in about 15 min. make your eyes water, that unburned bad timing smell. (timing was spot on with injector Opening method)

With the 1 oz + 1 gallon it seems to run much cleaner and happier. idle is better and overall power feels up A BIT.

also it helped smooth out the idle on 2 of my Perkins powered portable welders.


I tried, Lucas fuel additive (seemed a bit thick But ran it as directed)

Howe's fuel treat

Power service White bottle and gray bottle.

Stanadyne lubristicity and performance formulas.

and various others.

Bang for the buck im sticking with the good ole walmart super tech 2 stroke

I'm currently running that blend in the tank of my BRAND new Duetz powered Lincoln vantage 500 that is Tier 4 compliant. Seems to be running tip top with a bit over 18 hours on her now.


all of my PSD and IDI fords LOVE the 2 stoke blend. worst tank still brought back a .5 MPG gain.

[Farmer]

Here in oz we use additives to replace lubricity, but it doesnt replace the sulphur.

So yes diesels mechanics will be in short supply for sometime.

I used to use canola oil at 2% until aussie fuel supliers started adding 2% bio-diesel to add a lubricant. But still any secondhand import generally does seals within 1 year.

Brand new is fine as they dont have the sulphur in the seals already, so once its fixed its fine.

[jughead]

from what i have read the sulphur does not lub anything. it is the process that removes the sulphur that takes out the lub. also

[salesrep]

The removal of sulfur from fuel has varying effects. Sulfur acted as a lubricant to the pumps and injectors. It was also a natural biocide. Ulsd is a very water hungry ( and dry) fuel combined with no biocide can lead to bugs. ULSD and Bio being used is naturally more solvent than before which can lead to clogged filters due to the cleaning effect. I definetly would recommend a lubricity additive ( 2 stroke has prroven to be successful) and if you have your own tanks have the fuel dist. check for water and/or fungus periodically. It is especially important to rid youself of water prior to winter. Most (gelling) as of late is really filter freeze up.

[MKTEF]

A interresting discussion here...:)

Fuel made from oil pumped out of the oilwells here in the Norwegian/Uk sea is so low on sulphur that it dosen't need to have the sulphur removed.
Thats not the case of oil from the middle east.;)

So i am a bit confused with the info given here.
There has not been any problem with our fuel because of the lack/low level of sulfur.:confused:

Then the Army uses cerosene as a fuel in all their vehicles.(F-34)

Thats a totaly different discussion.....
That fuel lacks the lubricating abilitys and has negative effects on fuel injection pumps, especialy the rotor type u have in old farmers equipment.

This fuel(cerosene) has some caracteristics:
- It gives u a 10-15% reduction in power.:mad:
- Power reduction can be remowed by a change in injection timing.(apr +5 degrees)
- Diesel in a cerosene adjusted pump/system is not smart. U get a big powerincrease and some bad noices....
- The Cerosene cleans out all the slam and dirt that diesel has put into your system for years. Filters will get blocked real fast.
- There is noe problem with diesel animals in cerosene.
- There is no problem with cold start, cerosene dosent "freeze".
- Water in cerosene dosen't separate to the bottom, it mixes in smal, smal drops in the cerosene.
- Some pressurevalves in the fuelsystem can start leaking. Primary pressure valve.
- 2 stroke oil is positive as a lubricating aditive. This is a good advice to all diesel engines.
- Some machines dosent handle a loss in power. They are programmed to the spesific power and when it aint there, u can be able to kill the engine. JCB Exc for example.

I have a sucpision that u might have fuel companies mixing in cerosene in the diesel, or making a "diesel" thats more like a cerosene.
Our experience is also that some Japanese highpressure fuelsystems is so bad in tolerances that they dosen't last long with the cerosene....
The old systems with a inline pumpe are OK.

Our engine testing guy's has done a lot of testing on this in their test cells..and most of the fuelsystems handle cerosene very good..
Exept the power loss...:mad:

I have also heard that the biofuels has the same characters as the cerosene, so those fuels should also be given some 2 stroke oil from time to time.:)

[RocksnRoses]

We went low sulpfur in Australia in 2000.

Most vehicles older than 5 years needed pump rebuilds, and this still happens with older imported diesels.

The problem is.
The seals take in a little sulphur over time. When you remove the sulphur the diesel slowly sucks out the sulphur in the seals shrinking them.

This can have 2 effect.

1. Air leak, usually noted in winter. The vehicle may be a little harder to start or it starts as normal but stalls 2 to 3 minutes later.

2. Leak into engine oil. The result can be an over full sump that ends up pushing diesel and oil past the rings causeing run away and eventual engine destruction.

This all sounds really bad, but its a fact and as long as you do your normal maintenance you will notice something wrong and solve it relatively cheaply.

Australia has already been there, apparently Japan is now going through it too, so just watch it.

Rob

G'day Farmer,

It is interesting what you say and I heard that there would be problems with the low sulpher fuel, but in our situation we have had no noticable problems at all and some of our equipment is older than five years. I never really heard of any other problems in our area caused by low sulpher fuel, but that's just my experience.

Rn'R.

[surfer-joe]

Back in early to mid-90's, original low sulphur diesel was blamed for all kinds of ill effects, most of which eventually turned out to be from other causes. One or two that stick in my mind that might have had some modicum of truth was lower lubricity for seals and loss of shock absorbing capacity in exhaust valves. However, with all the fuel that went through the engines under my supervision both off-road, over the road, and stationary during this time, I can not point to a single problem simply involving low sulphur fuel with these or any other problems.

I can point out -- from bad experience -- the problems encountered when bulk tanks are not properly and regularly maintained. I can also preach to the masses about being very careful where you buy your fuel, and who transports it in what. Lets just say that if you do not maintain your tanks, you will suffer consequences, all bad. It will cost you much down time and money, and also cause you to say many bad words in rapid succession. If you use a lot of fuel in large bulk tanks and do not have them tested and cleaned at least once a year, the above will descend upon you and verily, your boss will castigate you severely. The problem with contaminant formation is actually worse in warmer climates than cold.

If you use nearly all the fuel in your on-board tanks or in stationary bulk tanks rapidly, you will have less trouble than those that leave fuel in those tanks for long periods of time. Particularly if the tanks are not full, as that's how you get the most condensation and rust, also bacteria and algae. You can treat the bugs with chemicals, and drain condensation off, but if your tanks are properly situated, you will have a contaminate pool at the bottom end opposite the main outlet that does not get cleared out and it will cause you trouble right after every fill up as it becomes agitated and blended in with the new fuel. Best to let a recently filled tank set for 24 hours to let the contaminants settle out. Everyone does this, right?

If you do not always filter the fuel from your bulk tanks BEFORE it goes into your equipment, you will have trouble, eventually. I can not say enough about filtering fuel these day's before it hits the modern fuel pump and injectors on today's equipment. It's critical and a number one priority.

Back after WWII, the U.S. military decreed that they had to have engines -- via the German example -- that would run on nearly anything, diesel, gas, perfume, vodka, you name it. Thus was born the Continental Multi-Fuel engine that was presented in several different sizes and configurations. In the sixties I operated a number of different military trucks and other pieces of equipment thus equipped, and they ran pretty well with whatever we threw in them. #2 diesel, JP-4, gasoline, kerosene. There didn't seem to be much difference in power between the use of any fuel, and so far as I know, these rigs all ran about the same length of time in hours as any conventional engine configured for only one fuel.

Thus I'd be doubtful and hesitant about using any expensive additive that claims to add lubricity and several other positive attributes to your off the shelf fuel. GM, MTU, International, Deere, Cummins, nor Caterpillar at present recommend using any fuel additives in their engines.

Now, wintertime activities. If you do the above as I've recommended, you will not have much trouble, unless the ambient air temperature drops below about 25 degrees. Then it's time to blend some #1 diesel or straight Kerosene into your tanks either on board or in bulk. Remember, it's not the fuel so much that causes trouble even then, it's water, which causes icing in filters and pinch points in fuel lines and fittings. However, some very waxy fuels will also gel in combination with water, creating a bigger problem.

There are a number of expensive anti-gel additives available to help this, but remember again, they don't do a lick of good if poured in AFTER a freeze up has occurred. The chemicals have to be present and blended in BEFORE the weathers turns cold! Better to buy blended fuel, or blend it yourself instead of the additives, as, for instance, most truck drivers always say if one is good, three or four must be better, eh! But the truth is, more is not better and could cause more difficulty. I suppose that if one only takes an occasional load into cold country, use an additive before going. If you haul or work all winter in cold country, blend your fuel. You don't lose much power, and you gain from up-time and less problems. This does take paying some attention to weather forecasts, an important function for the equipment manager or whomever does the purchasing of fuel.

What I'm saying here, is that given proper care, operation, and PM, what's in a fuel up to this point in time has not had a lot to do with any particular problem, so long as the ingredients did not contain dirt or water. I think the same mostly holds true today with modern engines. Service them properly and on schedule, keep your tanks and filters clean, buy good reputable fuel from an honest distributor, and it's likely you won't need additives or extra special break-down maintenance. I don't believe that ULS diesel presents any special challenges, and I'd accept that it may have lower BTU value, thus lower fuel economy. But so far as the loss of sulphur presenting lubricity problems, I'd have to experience that myself, and I'm not seeing it at present.

[salesrep]

:thumbsup GREAT POST surfer JOE.
I could argue in favor of additives, but that aside, members should adhere to your words to the letter.

[RocksnRoses]

G'day salesrep,
I for one would like to hear your argument for fuel additives. I am a bit like surfer joe as to whether they are an advantage or not, so if you have some positive feed back on the use of additives, I would like to hear about it.
As usual, surfer joe, a very imformative post.
Rn'R.

[salesrep]

Today's fuel is just to inconsistent. It used to be treated from the refiner, now it is up to the generally uneducated fuel jobber or dist. Not to blame him completely whatsoever because he has no control over the quality of what comes up the pipeline. To add lubricity or not, moisture dispersant or not, rust inhibitors or not, cetane or not, anti gel or not, kerosene or not, detergency or not. Only 50% of USA bio is up to astm spec. Sulfur arriving at the end has a ppm from 2 to 11. It is cheap insurance and one with a good detergency package will get you a 3-5% fuel economy gain. At 1% or less it pays for the additive. I guess that's the short version. I feel that lubricity, detergency and water dispersants are an important addition to today's fuel.
Now that said many jobbers do add in the correct package and if they are working with an additive co. and treating their fuel than you have no need to.
I know this, many more truckers are adding all the time now due to the risk of crappy fuel that they get on the road.....and they get better fuel economy, less filter plugging and better injector wear.

[RocksnRoses]

Thanks for that salesrep. We use our fuel direct from the distributor and I don't really know what happens to it before we receive it. As far as I know all of our fuel no matter what brand comes off the same oil tanker and I don't think the distributors add anything. Just lately it has been cold (for us) in the mornings and some of our equipment has blowing more smoke than usual when starting so I was thinking about trying an additive to see if it improved things.

Rn'R.

[surfer-joe]

salesrep has a good point in that some fuel being put out today is not the best quality for a variety of reasons, but then, this has always been true, particularly back when there were a dozen small refineries in every state. That is not so much the case anymore, but now we have a lot of fuel coming into America by tanker or barge from overseas refineries, and one never knows what those loads may contain, unless they are sampled and tested.

The possibility that one could get bad fuel at a truck stop is fair to good, depending on who supplies them. See above. But a fuel stop that consistently puts out bad fuel won't stay in business long as the word will get around quick. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I feel it's more rare then not.

Not everyone here has the size fleet to sample their fuel on a regular basis. I have done so in the past, and in a couple of instances, the sample results were eye openers, one time forcing me to switch suppliers because of consistent bad samples over a period of time. However, even a small fleet might want to sample once in a while on a random basis to make sure that the fuel they receive is of good quality and isn't contaminated with water or critters. If you do have some trouble with the fuel then, you at least have a honest sample to wave in your distributors face while you are demanding compensation for downtime and repairs.

There are some simple -- and inexpensive -- methods to check for water in your fuel. In fact, your supplier will probably help you on this by providing the tooling and test stuff. He might also help with checking for algae and other contaminants. Ask him.

Biodiesel is a whole new story, and while there are some standards for B5, B10 and B20 and so on, I don't know that all the refiners are following the same standard. There have been some issues with biodiesel acting as a pretty good solvent in older engines thus causing some filter plugging issues upon initial use, also some freeze or gelling issues in northern states during winter operation. While I'm not adverse to biodiesel per se, after seeing what's it's doing to food pricing both here and abroad, I'm thinking that some of our politicians put the cart ahead of the horse by mandating a certain percentage of use no matter what the price is. The haste to jump on the biodiesel bandwagon may be premature. We'll see. If regular ULS diesel prices continue to fall, biodiesel will be all done, at least till prices go up again.

For cold weather biodiesel use, I'm seeing people report that the use of a fuel heater may be a smart move if one is determined to use it. I've looked for an additive that claims to soothe some of biodiesels ills, but there does not seem to be one that is specific to biodiesel. Some of the old or original diesel additives are claimed to work with biodiesel, but, again, I haven't seen any report from anyone claiming to have a real gee whiz product. I haven't seen nor talked to anyone that's had any experience with blending biodiesel with #1 or Kerosene either for winter use. I'd sure like to. Recently, an airline tested some biojetfuel and it seemed to work ok. Remember that it was a special one time test and I'm sure that fuel was refined, blended, and tested very carefully. Jet fuel has to be nearly 100% moisture free because of the extreme cold temps at altitude. I believe I read recently that our military has also tested some biodiesel, I don't recall the results. In a multifuel engine, it wouldn't be a problem at all.

Anyone else here see that Hugo Chavez seized the assets of Cemex in Venezuela today?