dual plane laser grading

[KSSS]

I am considering the purchase of a dual plane laser grading system such as this one http://www.laserleveling.com/grade_prod/skid/smp/smp_main.html


Anyone have any experience with this system or like system?

Concrete has hit 100 plus a yard here. I think now would be a good time to get into high production concrete prep. work. Does any here do a lot of large scale concrete prep? What do you price it at?

[wrenchbender]

I don't do concrete work but have built a couple of thse type machines.The guy I built them for says on a 100' X 100' pad it will only vary about 1/8" anywhere you check the grade.I did all the fabricating,plumbing and installed all the hyd. a local laser shop fit them with the receivers. I'll see if I can find some pics of the ones I built.

[JBL]

I run the 3 point version of that setup. It is very accurate in nice finish material like sand, base rock and black dirt. When you get into rocky conditions the box jumps around alot. The key to the whole setup is having a good proportional laser reciever. As far as pricing I normally charge $70 an hour for the tractor and box. One thing you will find out quick though is that concrete guys will love you. They know that when they show up behind you things will be perfect when it comes to grade. There is nothing better than when you get a call from a homeowner/business owner saying you were requested by the concrete company doing there concrete. I have purchased most of laser equipment from www.laser-grade.com, you might want to check them out to compare prices and equipment.

[bobcatuser]

I looked at buying a dual dozer attachment last year. At the time I was bidding on two sport field drainage and grading contracts.

The dual dozer has two laser receivers to keep the blade on grade, it will also work for back dragging. I would have bought one if I got the contracts.
http://www.dualdozer.com/

[KSSS]

I have looked at Dual dozer as well as spoke to them. It seems like a good system. The laser leveling system seems to be a true dual plane system. I would like the ability to do two planes at once. I have dual plane TopCon laser. I just need to decide on the grading attachment. I appreciate everyones help.

[Deas Plant]

Hi, KSSS.
I have used dual grade lasers on a couple of jobs and wished I had one on several other jobs. The jobs where I had them were both tennis court complexes with diagonal cross-falls so I set the laser up behind the high corner and set the falls from there. One job had ten courts and the other had six.

I was using a receiver-only unit on the machine, a Cat 953B track loader with 4-in-1 bucket and rippers, and had no problem keeping the finished level to +/- 1/2". My job was only to move the bulk. The bloke with the laser box loved it that he only had 1/2" humps and hollows to cut and fill.

[RadioFlyer]

JBL...what type of box scraper do you have your laser set up on?

[JBL]

I am using a 7ft Cammond hitch type box blade, think it is the DS7 model. It is nice on big pads but kind of a pain on the smaller ones. Corners are hard to work on smaller pads with the pull type hitch. If I get another one it will be a 3 point model like the ones posted in KSSS's link. I guess I was thinking about the 3 point one when I posted above. One other thing I will add about the cammond box is that cutting edge is lower than the sides. So it takes a few more passes to clean up all the windrows. Probably should have gotten one of their industrial models.

[RadioFlyer]

JBL.....thanks. I have a few more questions. What size tractor do you use? Do you think a tractor is better than a wheeled skid? How would a tractor compare to using a ctl? What size slabs does the laser grading system start to fall short?
Thanks for your time and input....

[JBL]

I use a 65hp two wheel drive tractor. I let a buddy borrow it and he used a 40hp four wheel drive and said it worked fine. As far as the skid steer and ctl's I have no experience using them with the box.

The smaller pads say 30x30 and smaller are the hardest pads to do. It seems like you always run out of room before you get started. I think this may be where a skid steer/ctl would really shine. The bigger the pad the more effecient the system becomes in my opinion. The only thing that comes to mind as far as falling short is the quality of your laser. Some lasers are accurate to within 1/32inch at 100 feet and some of the cheaper ones are 1/4 inch at 100 feet. If you are doing a real large pad you may need to reset the laser a few times to be really accurate.

Knowing what I know now I would have probably bought the heaviest 8ft box I could find. In my opinion the heavier the box the less prone it is to jump around and give the washboard effect. I sometimes get that when grading rocky natural ground. It would also have replaceable side edges and the sides would come closer to matching the cutting edge height.

[KSSS]

The link I posted shows a laser grader with the ability to push and pull material. This I thought was appealing since on smaller jobs you could work the edges with the machine. I also had the same question concerning a CTL. My machines are rubber tired. I was curious if that would become an issue pushing a 7-8 box blade in loose crushed gravel. Laser Leveling offers another type of box blade for heavier ground conditions http://www.laserleveling.com/grade_prod/skid/smhc/smhc_main.html

This attachment does not give the push/pull ability. It would be more suitable for working in native ground conditions. For us the concrete prep we do is most always in 3/4 crushed gravel so the skid pro model I think is better suited for that type of work. I typically side on the most HD model in anything I buy, but in this case I would not for my application.

[KSSS]

Pulling the trigger on the above attachment. Concrete continues to rise and interest in exact grade concrete prep is high (about time). Cost is 17.6K for the dual grade 7' model. I have been debating this purchase for 3 years (I have never spent this much on an attachment). It is time to GETTER DONE.:eek:

[Matt McGowan]

For those of you using these laser controlled box blades:

1. How are you spreading the gravel? Are you chaining the truck tailgates, spreading it with a front end loader first or using the box blade to spread it out of a pile?

2. How many square feet of gravel can you put down and grade in a day?

3. What is the going rate in your area for spreading and grading gravel? How many cents/SF, excluding material costs?

Thanks
Matt

[Squizzy246B]

Pulling the trigger on the above attachment. Concrete continues to rise and interest in exact grade concrete prep is high (about time). Cost is 17.6K for the dual grade 7' model. I have been debating this purchase for 3 years (I have never spent this much on an attachment). It is time to GETTER DONE.:eek:

Kaiser, you be sure an let us know how it works out...and don't forget the piccys either:rolleyes:

[Matt McGowan]

For those of you using these laser controlled box blades:

1. How are you spreading the gravel? Are you chaining the truck tailgates, spreading it with a front end loader first or using the box blade to spread it out of a pile?

2. How many square feet of gravel can you put down and grade in a day?

3. What is the going rate in your area for spreading and grading gravel? How many cents/SF, excluding material costs?

Thanks
Matt

Anybody have experience doing this as a specialty subcontractor???

Thanks
Matt

[JBL]

KSSS, Hope the new box does everything you want it to do. Like Squizzy said give some updates. You did get the skidsteer model, right?

Matt I use the single plane box behind a tractor cause I'm not rich like KSSS. :D

As far as the spreading goes the fastest and easiest way is let the trucks spread it. Pretty fortunate here to have two real good drivers. They do all my rock hauling and are worth their weight in gold. You tell them how thick you want it and they get real close.

How many square feet per day. Hard to give a consistent # because of so many variables. One job you could do 40,000 sq/ft day and the next you may get 10,000 sq/ft day. Biggest factors are cycle times on the trucks, depth of rock, obstacles (water,sewer,electrical stubs).

Rates. By the hour I charge 70 dollars for the tractor and box. If I am bidding a job it is anywhere from 8 to 15 cents a sq/ft. Normally I have built the pad/parking lot that I am spreading gravel on. If you are planning on specializing in this make sure to check grades carefully before quoting anything. Some contractors definition of on grade can leave you with alot more work to do than you planned on.

[shaper]

I have a 7' 3-point hitch laser box blade that I use on my John Deere 4320 tractor. I mainly use it to laser grade tees on golf courses, but have also done considerable work on sports fields also. This box blade has dual controls which is especially handy. The receivers can be used for manual control on a dozer with a mast setup. I like to get the grade within a tenth or two with the dozer then use the box blade, makes for faster laser grading. This way I can finish laser grade up to 50,000 square feet in a 10 hour day.

The controls are all Topcon along with a Topcon dual plane laser. I'll try to find a picture

[shaper]

Here's the level-best 7' laser box blade

[KSSS]

I did get the skid steer model. My dual plane laser is also Topcon. I am "banking" on this working out. If not it might be a lean Winter. On the smaller pads I get around a $1.10 That includes 4" of 3/4 crush roadbase, compacted, and trucking of material in the immediate area. The larger jobs go from .75 to .40 cents a square depending on how big it is. Your scaring me on that .10 cent pricing. My grand illusion is getting more into this and dropping less profitable things we do like final grades for lawn installation. We'll see how it goes.

[Matt McGowan]

I did get the skid steer model. My dual plane laser is also Topcon. I am "banking" on this working out. If not it might be a lean Winter. On the smaller pads I get around a $1.10 That includes 4" of 3/4 crush roadbase, compacted, and trucking of material in the immediate area. The larger jobs go from .75 to .40 cents a square depending on how big it is. Your scaring me on that .10 cent pricing. My grand illusion is getting more into this and dropping less profitable things we do like final grades for lawn installation. We'll see how it goes.

Thanks for the input guys.

Last I heard the rates in my area were in the $.07 to $.15 /SF range but that is just grading only only. The concrete contractor or GC buys and trucks the stone, rents the roller to compact it and takes care of all the hand work. I'd be thrilled with $.10/SF doing 35K to 50KSF/day.

Shaper,

Wouldn't it make more sense to mount the laser control equipment on the dozer thereby eliminating a step, and piece of equipment, in the process? By the way, that looks like a real nice set you have.

Thanks
Matt

[shaper]

Matt

It would make sense to do it that way but I don't own a dozer, I have to rent. However not sure what the tolerances are on a dozer automatic setup. My box blade will do +/- 1/4". GPS machine control and a new dozer is on my wish list

[capt_met]

i am interested in the dual plane laser systems as well. been doing some shopping and wonder what you guys that have them think of this style blade. http://www.ceattach.com/cea/ceaweb.store/46394cf609fa8cb22744c0a8c70206cb/Catalog/SSL-GRADER
what do you think are the advantages of the box blade over this style and vise versa. i am using a box blade without laser now and find it great for moving dirt around. looking forward to comments.
thanks,

[KSSS]

What I like about the box blade is bring able to leave a cleaner finish faster. I also think that in tight places that it would be difficult to grade with. I think those blades have a place driveways, large open pad or grading larger material like pit run. Maybe a guy needs both:drinkup

[Matt McGowan]

Matt

It would make sense to do it that way but I don't own a dozer, I have to rent. However not sure what the tolerances are on a dozer automatic setup. My box blade will do +/- 1/4". GPS machine control and a new dozer is on my wish list

Shaper,

That's my dream as well.

Now put your bib so you don't droll all over yourself. On one of my projects the site contractor subed out the paving to the paving division of a much larger site work contractor. Evidently their deal was based on a per ton price. While grading the dirt for the parking lot the site work contractor almost wore it out. They would drift it to the east in the morning and then, look out, they would drift it back to the west in the afternoon. Long story short, they went way over on the tonage and came to us (the GCs) asking for an extra $60,000 to make it up. Naturally we said no because it wasn't a legitimate extra or change. After that they spent two days trying to figure how we made the parking lot bigger than what was on their bid set of plans. They weren't able find anything that had changed and finally came to the conclusion they had no one to blame themselves for the crappy grade control.

Now, imagine getting paid to fine grade parking lots, like building pads, using 3D machine control to prevent screw ups like I've described above.. All of the sudden the market has expanded 400% or 500%. The only angle I can't figure out is how to get the curb and gutter to match exactly without taking that work on as well.

Matt

[stuvecorp]

Any action shots? Is it a tough sell for this type of service?

[imjustdave]

For those of you who own one of these.... where are you getting your buisness? Are you just asking concrete guys if you can sub grade for them? I dont' know if phone books, or advertising would really work, or maybe it does. Im really thinking about getting one of these, but for the $$$ I need to know the tricks to get the work.

Thanks

[stuvecorp]

Any updates on how this has gone KSSS? Have you ran in to any problems using a wheeled skid?

[zhkent]

Keep in mind lasers only do a straight line, the line can be flat, uphill or downhill, but it can't bend.
They can't grade a curb, road or parking lot that follows the terrain and has a different percentage of fall from one station to the next.

[Deas Plant]

Hi, ZHKent.
I haven't seen'em yet but I have been told by a laser service company rep that there is a new generation laser/GPS's coming out that have multiple laser beams and the GPS selects the one(s) that is/are appropriate for the current position of your cutting edge. He reckoned that these systems would be far more accurate in the vertical plane than current GPS/only systems. Now I think that'll be interesting to see and use.

[KSSS]

Well I thought I would update this thread.

I decided to put this off last year and thought it better to wait for an economic downturn to spend 20K on skid steer attachment.:Banghead

I purchased the Southern Precision laser grader Skid Master Pro series, push pull ability, dual plane.

The difference was I hired CAT guidance people to do the install of components. I used DanFoss dual valving with Apache readers and dual plane box.

CAT completed the install in two days.

I spent about 1500 more to go this route than to have the entire system sent to me installed on the attachment. However I still would have had to complete the install on the skid steer myself or more likely hire someone to do that anyway. The Apache dual plane box is kinda large and finding a place for that in a skid steer cab was a challenge. The wiring itself was not bad. What I really was after by having CAT do the install was service and support of the compenents and the system itself. They will be coming out to show us how to adjust the settings, complete initial setup and show us how to get the most out of the attachment. Much better than having the attachment shipped complete with all the gee whiz stuff on it and being hands an instruction manual. The auto/manual switch will be run into the existing switches on the control handles of the skid steer. That is a big time saver.

I am hoping that it works as it should. I will know shortly.

[John K]

KSSS,

Is it working out for you?

[KSSS]

KSSS,

Is it working out for you?

Ya it is, I have been working with it more to develop the technique. I am still working on getting the dual slope set up down. The attachment has been holding an 1/8th inch in 100 feet in black sand. I am happy with that. Looking forward to getting it on a big job, great timing on my part, not many of those right now.:rolleyes:

[grantcalleroz]

I don't do concrete work but have built a couple of thse type machines.The guy I built them for says on a 100' X 100' pad it will only vary about 1/8" anywhere you check the grade.I did all the fabricating,plumbing and installed all the hyd. a local laser shop fit them with the receivers. I'll see if I can find some pics of the ones I built.

I am in the concrete industry and have a 100x100 building coming up as well as many others. Does anyone have experience with a laser boxscraper on a bobcat skidsteer? I am considering an upgrade to the caterpillar C series if necessary. I'd appreciate any input from anyone as far as eliminating the manpower necessary to prep a site before pouring.

[grantcalleroz]

Well I thought I would update this thread.

I decided to put this off last year and thought it better to wait for an economic downturn to spend 20K on skid steer attachment.:Banghead

I purchased the Southern Precision laser grader Skid Master Pro series, push pull ability, dual plane.

The difference was I hired CAT guidance people to do the install of components. I used DanFoss dual valving with Apache readers and dual plane box.

CAT completed the install in two days.

I spent about 1500 more to go this route than to have the entire system sent to me installed on the attachment. However I still would have had to complete the install on the skid steer myself or more likely hire someone to do that anyway. The Apache dual plane box is kinda large and finding a place for that in a skid steer cab was a challenge. The wiring itself was not bad. What I really was after by having CAT do the install was service and support of the compenents and the system itself. They will be coming out to show us how to adjust the settings, complete initial setup and show us how to get the most out of the attachment. Much better than having the attachment shipped complete with all the gee whiz stuff on it and being hands an instruction manual. The auto/manual switch will be run into the existing switches on the control handles of the skid steer. That is a big time saver.

I am hoping that it works as it should. I will know shortly.

KSS,
Do you have a number for the installers you used? Is it working out? I am considering doing the same thing but am concerned about the upfront costs. I would appreciate any input.

[KSSS]

KSS,
Do you have a number for the installers you used? Is it working out? I am considering doing the same thing but am concerned about the upfront costs. I would appreciate any input.


It took CAT a while to get it dialed in. Install started day after Memorial weekend last year. Completed to my satisfaction mid December. Obviously that pissed me off. By the time it was dialed in perfectly I lost the whole year. 20k plus spent with no opportunity for a return of my investment. CAT had not done an install like this before, at least these guys had not. We all learned together. They brought in an Apache tech. which put on a mini class for CAT on installation and set up. I was apart of some of that. So I learned it from the guy that knows the most about it and made a great contact at Apache. The install guys were good to work with so that helped. They did not expect nor did they ask for payment until it was perfect. I appreciated that. I am no CAT fan. However we worked through the long install time and issues and it worked out. I don't regret using them even though it took so long to get it up and running.

I am seeing about 1/8th inch deviation in black sand over 100 feet. When we got it dialed in that tight, I wrote the check. No doubt the system is that good. I like the Southern Precesion box. It has some nice features such as the shock absorbing mounting system.

Developing the technique for running it, and setting it up, especially with dual slope takes practice and more practice. I am still mastering this aspect of the attachment.

I foresaw the housing decline, what I did not foresee was the commerical decline as fast as it did. I was about 2 years late in getting this for my market. The good side is I should be plenty versed in running it when the market comes back. I have some opportunities coming up, just not near as many as when I started putting the plan togther. If your market is there still now, I would not waste time, like I did.

There are some peripherial issues to consider, One is a good dual plane laser. I went this route. I bought a Topcon Dual plane Laser several years ago. Its not the high speed one with the remote, but it does what I need it to. Sorry I cant remember the model. I then bought from CAT a Spectra lLL 400 single slope laser. My first nonTopcon laser. I plan on using this for everything nondual plane. The dual planes are much more expensive to buy and more expensive to work on so I will try and keep that only for running dual plane jobs. Mine is a 7' box blade, when pulling a full pull, it would spin out in 3/4 crushed road base with the 12X16.5 tires, I have some 33X15's and these worked much better. I then installed a VTS system on the skid steer, that works great in this application but the floatation tires also worked well considering the minimal investment. Negotiate the component costs. CAT was way high initially. I showed them what Southern Precision was quoting me for the same components and they came down to reality. Considering the state of things, I would bet you could get even better deals on the components.

I bought some of this several years ahead of purchasing the attachment. I bought a Plus 5 grade reader, the dual plane laser, VTS ahead of time. Helped to spread out the cost.

Hopefully this helps you in your decision.

[Themandownunder]

I am interested in getting one of these setups. I've been working/researching for the last 12 months
Any photos video links of it working
I'm going to import one to australia so anyone recommend a good dealer - even a second hand system will do
Please feel free to pass on my email
blackbilly@bigpond.com

[Themandownunder]

Further to that my machine is a cat 297 - I would even consider purchasing a set of "plans" to fabricate one of these in OZ - I believe one of the members said he had made one up.

[mouse]

I am interested in getting one of these setups. I've been working/researching for the last 12 months


the bobcat box blade with laser receiver is sub 10k locally. however it wont interface with your cat very well...

[Themandownunder]

When you say locally - Is that downunder?.............My bobcat dealer isn't interested because I went to The "darkside" and bought Cat products........Spent 200k with them and he came back and said "If you told me you were serious....' I did and had no interest from him, he ignored me and my son for half an hour, then couldn't be arsed ringing me back for a month, then wondered why I bouht Cat who chased me for weeks. When you spend a portgage worth with people you want some wooing
Have you tried one of these graders?
I'll even fly interstate if the dealer is good
I have a good hydraulic engineer who can trouble shoot pretty well
Regards
S

[mcnitttj8]

Have any of you tried the laser box blade made by Level Best? Before reading the forum today I was only aware of it and Dual Dozer. Which is more productive? I have had the level best in the dirt and it seemed to work great however the bogey wheels in front pose a problem with final grade.... however I believe they create more support.

[shaper]

mcnitttj8

I own a level best with dual receivers . I run mine on a John Deere 4320 tractor, it is a 7' 3-point hitch model. If the grade is within .10-.20' I can do up to 50,000 square feet in a 10 hour day. The wheels on the 3-point hitch models are in the rear on mine, they can be a pain in tight areas if you have to pick up the box and backup to reset. When you lower the box and start pulling the wheels will pivot 180 degrees, causing spin out marks

If you go back a page or two you will see a picture of mine

[Themandownunder]

The only supplier in Oz wants $40k for a dual laser receiver set up by level best. It seems far too dear for me. I think he bought a dozen and is trying to sell them here. He's not even an authorised dealer by all accounts.
Any good reps on line, or sellers of second hand gear I'm after an 8' to fit a Cat 297

[mouse]

When you say locally - Is that downunder?.............My bobcat dealer isn't interested because I went to The "darkside" and bought Cat products........


pm on its way as i'm curious who/where the dealer is. and yep, locally is here, australia, clark's pricing is nation wide afaik.

the first problem for you with the bobcat box blade is that the electronics on it work in weird wonderful ways - the attachments usually feature a circuit board which talks with the bobcat computer through the canbus, therefore the signals on the 7 pin are not so straight forward.

i asked a good sparky to build me a control box to use as an interface so i could hook some of my attachments to non-bobcat machines, they told me they couldn't build the box... :Banghead

there is a fella in usofa advertising an interface box for about $400 (i think) that supposedly works, i emailed him and got nothing intelligible back so didn't go down that path, his website didn't make me warm and fuzzy either tho he may well be dinky di.


have i used the bobcat box blade? no but i do have one on order. the last one left in the country went to an asphalter locally, the feedback is the thing works an absolute treat. more are on the ship as i write.

bobcat's box blade is not dual slope and doesn't feature the dual blade setup like the level best. i don't see that as a major problem, i think most of the rental applications will be level or single slope and those that need dual slope probably need a lot more than a box blade.

if my pitch was house pads - small areas - i'd probably lean to the level best for the ability to work material both directions. that said they are just plain bloody expensive here.

i do think the bobcat blade will work going backwards, it just wont carry much material.

at civinex recently there was a guy, from sa i think, displaying a locally made dual plane for about 34k or about 11k without the dual plane smarts, it didn't do a lot for me. it was a sort of like a level best with some interesting plumbing and linkages. even if it was gold plated i still wouldn't fork that much for a box blade.

next to him was a guy who made hotmix screeds for bobcats, he wanted 18k for something that looked to pretty much be a couple of rams, a bit os bisalloy and a day or two on a press brake. maybe i underestimate the work involved...

[mcnitttj8]

Themandownunder--
Currently we are using/demoing a LevelBest Blade matched with a 289C CAT. They are priced considerably lower here in the states coming in between $15-$25K depending on width, and slope capabilities. We recently put it to work on a flat pad barn site 600' X 80' wide. We used it put down the finish grade of sand. We were happy with the performance and we were on grade across the entire project.

However, I am also currently looking at the DualDozer by HitchDoc. I see some advantages with both. I think the wheels being in back on the DualDozer will leave an almost perfect final grade and will allow you to get into tighter spots. I have not had the chance to price a DualDozer or even use one for that matter. Are these two blades the Top performers fo their kind?

[KSSS]

Themandownunder--
Currently we are using/demoing a LevelBest Blade matched with a 289C CAT. They are priced considerably lower here in the states coming in between $15-$25K depending on width, and slope capabilities. We recently put it to work on a flat pad barn site 600' X 80' wide. We used it put down the finish grade of sand. We were happy with the performance and we were on grade across the entire project.

However, I am also currently looking at the DualDozer by HitchDoc. I see some advantages with both. I think the wheels being in back on the DualDozer will leave an almost perfect final grade and will allow you to get into tighter spots. I have not had the chance to price a DualDozer or even use one for that matter. Are these two blades the Top performers fo their kind?

My issue with Hitch Doc was the components are not current technology. The use their own homemade control box. Nothing wrong with that I guess but I felt better about the Apache system. I think the Apache components are much better, you can use the same control system on a dozer or smaller grader if your so inclined. If I recall Hitch Doc quoted me about 25K for their system. When you running the system being too compact is not a great thing either, Even with a tracked machine you go tortise a lot with the shorter length. What I like about the wheels out front is the longer wheel base makes the system more stable by reducing the tortise effect (if that makes sense).

As far as the value of dual plane. If you get a project with a dual slope you will be happy that you have the capability. I wanted the ability to pull in one direction and pull both axis at the same time and it works well as long as you set the laser up correctly. My thought is you are already spending big money on an automated grading system, might as well get all that the system can give you. One decent job and you have covered the difference between single and dual.

[KSSS]

I am interested in getting one of these setups. I've been working/researching for the last 12 months
Any photos video links of it working
I'm going to import one to australia so anyone recommend a good dealer - even a second hand system will do
Please feel free to pass on my email
blackbilly@bigpond.com

Ray at Southern Precision out of Florida is who I used. If you google Southern Precision you can get his phone number or email.