"old operators"

[Oregon Rob]

I would like to hear how things have changed for the better and worse for both the industry and equipment.:notworthy :notworthy

[badranman]

Maybe to get this kick started, how about if you had to do it all over again what would you do different? Hope you don't mind Oregon Rob.

[digger242j]

Yeah, I'd like to hear from some of the "old" operators too! :)

I have to qualify my answer in that most of my time has been spent in the residential end of the excavating business, so most of my time has been on equipment of less than say, 25,000 lbs. Somebody who's spent their time in heavy or highway work might have different perspectives.

As far as equipment, the last couple of decades have seen such a boom in hydraulic excavators. When I started, the basic tools of the trade were a rubber tired backhoe/loader and a tracked loader. These days an excavator's primary machine is just as likely to be a trackhoe. 25 years ago if you were going to buy an excavator it was going to be big. These days you can find any size you want. Once I got a few hours on one I didn't really enjoy getting into the rubber tired machine nearly as much. The ability to swing all the way around and the ability to walk the machine just about anyplace you need it to go is more than a fair trade for the versatility the tractor/loader/backhoe gives you.

In the same vein, skid loaders are everywhere these days. As far as "the industry" goes, I think they've had the effect of putting a lot of guys who would otherwise have been laborers into the operator's seat, and putting some laborers out of work. Combine a skid loader with a mini excavator and you've eliminated a lot of what was hand work two decades ago. (At least for me, this is a good thing--hand work hurts a lot more now than it did 20 years ago.)

To put this in perspective--a friend of mine who began working in this industry in the 1930's tells me that at that time, a day's work for a ditch digger was a hole 3' deep, 25' long, and wide enough to get your rear end into. How many guys could you call up today to do that for even a couple of days? Can you imagine how many guys with picks and shovels you'd need to do what a 120 size excavator can do in 8 hours?

As for what I'd do differently, I'd pay more attention to hearing protection. I think, in general equipment isn't as noisy as it was 25 years ago. (Then again, lots of things aren't as noisy--people talking in a normal tone of voice are so much harder to hear than they were back then. I wonder why that is? But I digress...) It's certainly an improvement that ear protection isn't necessary on a lot of today's machinery, but there's certainly enough stuff that's still as noisy as it always was. I wish I'd have recognized then that lots of noise is bad for your ears.

Real interesting topic. I'm sure I'll think of more to say, and it'll be interesting to hear what everybody else thinks...

[Oregon Rob]

Originally posted by badranman
Maybe to get this kick started, how about if you had to do it all over again what would you do different? Hope you don't mind Oregon Rob.

Don't mind a bit, thanks:drinkup

[Dirtguru]

As digger said, there has been a boom in hydraulic excavators. I'll bet you would be hard pressed to find any kind of exc project in the USA right now without at least one on site. Excavators are my bread and butter. Iv'e been around them since I was a boy and have seen them improve greatly over the years, especially the last ten. I am amazed at what I can do with today's machines. They are so much faster and more maneuverable compared to even 10 yrs ago. Attachments are available which allows you to accomplish just about anything you can imagine. You can even buy an attachment that gives your bucket power, angle and tilt capability. Speaking of P.A.T. Kobelco has two models equiped with PAT dozer blades and dozer undercarriages. The ED 190 is based on there 36,000 lb SK 160. The newest model is the ED 150 which looks to be a 0 tailswing version of the SK 140. Demoed both models last summer, as far as excavators they both performed flawlessly and both claim drawbar pull equal to any 85hp dozer. Strangly the smaller machine was hands down the better dozer of the two. Both would climb a 2 to 1 slope with ease and having the blade out front when working on steep slopes was sure nice.
Dozers, especially Caterpiller have improved dramatically in the last ten years, especially operator comfort and ergonomics. New dozers are so much more user friendly and easier to operate.
Enclosed cabs with climate control and cd players. I don't know how we ever survived without them in the old days. 10 years ago I would have told you that EROPS where for sissy's, until I ran an early D5M one summer. Had to keep the doors open the first couple of days so I could hear what the motor was doing.
Got to play with a Cat 637F scraper for a few hrs a couple of yrs ago. Man have they gotten a lot more comfortable.
Another machine that is become quite popular in the heavy highway world the last few years are the articulating off road dumptrucks. Instead of dealing with 5 3 axle drivers who can't back under the bucket you only have to deal with one. Off road enddumps are able to quickly back in and out of places scrapers can't go and don't seem to have any trouble getting around in slime like scrapers often do.
Have had some exp with mini excavators and was very impressed. Having the additional 180 deg of swing must make life a joy for all you foundation guys out there.
Skidsteers, I hate em, can't make em do squat with them funny controls, aint nothin but a $40,000 glorified wheelbarrow if ya ask me. Have had one around here somewhere for a few years, I use it to place boulders and such inside large bottomless culverts. Actually I spent a couple of weeks in Colorado last spring with my brother, he is a residential foundation excavator and has one of the new Cat skidsteers with the pilot controls. Whole different story, that little thing was a blast to run. Made me wonder what the guys in the skidsteer engineering dept have been smoking all these years.
Turbocharged diesel pickups with bucket seats, climate control, cd players and power windows, that can not only keep up with traffic, they can flat just leave it in a cloud of black smoke. Nuff said.
As for the excavation business I would say it has become so much harder to stay competitive over the years due more than anything to ever increasing overhead costs. As I add additional equiptment and employees so goes my insurance and administrative costs. I have 13 full time employees right now and to be honest I really don't make much more money for myself than when I had only three. On the other hand having more employees allows me to take on more and larger contracts, Some of my contracts are worth a few million dollars and take 1 or 2 entire summers to complete, others are smaller, may only take about a month. There is a little more security in having more people because it allows me to spread my forces around. This enables me to be more competitive simply because I can bid on more work and be much choosier about the jobs I take when I'm busy. It never really works as simply as I stated but thats the general idea. Basically being the owner in this business does'nt amount to much more than a healthy credit rating and on rare occasions a healthy profit which immediately goes back into the business some how to avoid giving it to uncle sam.
What would I do different. Nothing, if I didn't truly love it I would not be doing it. My only complaint is I don't get as much seat time as I used to but I still get enough. Besides, how many guys have a Cat 330 excavator to use on there back yard whenever they want.

A Chapman

[hillrancher]

Reading previous threads will have to agree about the equipment.
From the first back-hoe I attempted to operate to now it is amazing what a difference.
Here excavators skid steer breakers and all the attachment we have now was unheard of here until the last 10 years here.
When I started out you built around a dozer every one wanted dozers on the job. You would add motor-grader loader and trucks after you got a dozer. Now only small dozer are being used.
The biggest change here is the attitude of the people. First in business every-one was glad to see you working. Now afraid you are going to take down trees, move a rock scare a bird ect. These are people that don't own any thing. Thy call the EPA or who ever just any thing to make a job take longer.
I would most likely do it again only more instead of staying in the area move out for better jobs.
DC

[Squizzy246B]

Combine a skid loader with a mini excavator and you've eliminated a lot of what was hand work two decades ago. (At least for me, this is a good thing--hand work hurts a lot more now than it did 20 years ago.)
...

You can say that again Dig!

I'm always amazed at how comforatble we are these days and how much we whine about the slightest defects or little things we don't like.
Growing up on a farm...or should I say growing up on a Massey Ferguson puts some of todays machinery well in perspective. When I was 12 it was not unusual for me to spend 12 hours a day on a tractor. Often I'd come home from school, grab a sandwich and go and take over from Dad. He could go home, shower, have tea and come back out at about 11pm to relieve me. We didn't know what ear muffs where and never even had ROP's let alone cabs. The comfort in todays machines is brilliant...and I think we have a lot to thank the asian manufacturers for in this regard.

When I look at my father's and grandfather's old B&W photos from when they cleared land, and what they cleared it with I'm not sure I'd be tough enough...without my A/C cab, hydraulic quick connect and bucket levelling. Those guys where hard as nails and then some.

Whilst the performance of todays machines is fantastic, I think we take the comfort for granted......like not having to eat hayseeds all day:wink2

[Jake]

If I had to start all over again out of high school I think I would have joined the union.

[denick]

What makes some one an "old operator"

[hillrancher]

What makes some one an "old operator"

Someone that operated a new machine that had no tilt cylinder on the dozer blade. no float on the bucket no rops or cab on the machine,no cyllinders to lift the blade or bucket ect. pony motors to start the main engine. start on gas switch to diesel... These operators are old.

[Squizzy246B]

What makes some one an "old operator"

or maybe "what makes an operator old?"

I'd say a couple of face collapses, a few sewers and water mains, some idiot architect who does the design without actually physically looking at the site, breakdowns, useless bad tempered truck drivers, cranky site supervisors straight out of university, clients with their head jammed up their a** and every XXXXX who wants everything done yesterday, rain when you least need it, city engineers, new operators in your pride and joy who think they are at Daytona...these are the things which add to the grey hair tally.

[tylermckee]

or maybe "what makes an operator old?"

I'd say a couple of face collapses, a few sewers and water mains, some idiot architect who does the design without actually physically looking at the site, breakdowns, useless bad tempered truck drivers, cranky site supervisors straight out of university, clients with their head jammed up their a** and every XXXXX who wants everything done yesterday, rain when you least need it, city engineers, new operators in your pride and joy who think they are at Daytona...these are the things which add to the grey hair tally.

if thats the case ill be grey before im 25. delt with all but new operators racing my equipment, as i dont have any yet.

[denick]

Someone that operated a new machine.

I'm relieved you used the word new in your desription. I've run all of those but none were new at the time. I was hoping it is only my kids that think I'm old at 53.

[rino1494]

Someone that operated a new machine that had no tilt cylinder on the dozer blade. no float on the bucket no rops or cab on the machine,no cyllinders to lift the blade or bucket ect. pony motors to start the main engine. start on gas switch to diesel... These operators are old.


Well, we have 2 "old" machines with no rops and I run them all the time. Does that make me old at a young age of 24 ?? :bouncegri

[killdozer]

The first machine I ran was a Allis Chalmers grader in 1951. It had a two cyl. motor and only four wheels; two in the front and two in the rear. There were no hydraulics, the blade was raised with two verticle steel wheels and two chains. The circle circle turned by diging in one corner of the blade, kicking out a dog, pulling forward until the blade was turned as desired and releasing the dog to hold it. Whew! Even typing all that makes me sweat. I also ran drag graders pulled behind farm tractors. My first dozer was an old RD8 Cat with a cable blade and a mean pony motor to start it. Nasty and wicked fast! My first job in the Army was running a D-8 Cat with a cable blade, pushing shot rock down off a 5 tier quarry face to a shovel front at the crusher. Try pushin rock while riding on rock and all with a cable blade. They finally gave me a TD-24 International that started on gas and then switched over to diesel. It had hydraulics, but slooow. It has been my experience that all hydraulic dozer blades are way slower than cable. Over the years I've run everything from scrap to Cadillacs, including a couple of Terex TS-14 scrapers that beat your butt to powder on anything but the smoothest haul roads. My favorite machine was an ultra-new D-9 Cat that had all the luxuries including air. It was the last machine I operated before retirement. I guess the Good Lord finally took pity on me and let me run something really decent. I spent more than 50 years gettin my body beat up on that iron and I can truthfully say I am perfectly happy running nothing more complicated than my recliner.

[farmerted44]

ut[QUOTE=killdozer]The first machine I ran was a Allis Chalmers grader in 1951. It had a two cyl. motor and only four wheels; two in the front and two in the rear. There were no hydraulics, the blade was raised with two verticle steel wheels and two chains. The circle circle turned by diging in one corner of the blade, kicking o a dog, pulling forward until the blade was turned as desired and releasing the dog to hold it.

hey kill dozer was it anything like the ac grader i have pics of in old iron? please take a look i would really like to know an approximate year.........

[digger242j]

I can truthfully say I am perfectly happy running nothing more complicated than my recliner.

I'm glad to hear you're finally getting some rest.

Give it another couple of years, with technology being what it is, and you might be able to go back to work operating, without leaving your recliner.


As for the other stuff, they weren't new machines, but I've run machines with no cab or ROPS, and with pony motors to start them. Poured concrete out of a mixer that ran the drum off a pony motor too. Actually, I spent the day inside the drum once, with an air hammer, after the pony motor quit with about 6 yards still in the drum.

[Squizzy246B]

A common converstion on our worksites would go:

Just think what this would have been like in the Old Days, they would have used picks and shovels and it would have taken days

followed by:

Yeah, Screw the good old days

I like our modern machinery:yup

[CascadeScaper]

Yeah, I don't know how you old guys did it. :notworthy

[tuney443]

Well, when I first had at it in 1974,my Dad thought my 67 Allis Chalmers I600 hoe was going to spoil me.Imagine 2 real foam seats at least 1" thick,a loader bucket with float control, an engine that would start with only 1 quick shot of either{2 when cold out}.Believe it or not,that miserable excuse for a tractor made me a damn good operator.If you can grade with a manual,un-synchronized tranny and have a rig that is so loose it would make you take a leak almost every hour,you can do it with something a whole lot bigger,stronger,and smoother.Dad used to do a lot of blasting--I remember when I was about 5,he showed me how 100' oak trees can jump 5' or so up in the air.That was:bouncegri :bouncegri He had a partner who kept his fingernails clean and thought 1 rare day he would play bossbecause Dad could'nt be there.He told their foreman to double the amount of dynamite in the holes because in his mind the job was going too slow.Off went the charge and 1 particular boulder about the size of his 1957 Buick Roadmaster just cleared his car.That was the last day he ever played boss again.

[plowking740]

Someone that operated a new machine that had no tilt cylinder on the dozer blade. no float on the bucket no rops or cab on the machine,no cyllinders to lift the blade or bucket ect. pony motors to start the main engine. start on gas switch to diesel... These operators are old.
well then I guess im an antique. I operated all the before I was 22. and being 35 now? at least I have gotten with the times run a 160 h now