Estimators ?

[DigDug]

Anyone have a inhouse estimator or hire one by the job? I am bidding some commercial jobs and am looking for a estimator . I have some questions about them , like do they work on a per bid basis or do most of them want to be hired full time? Thank you, doug
I'm in Maine.

[donlang]

If you are looking to have earthwork takeoffs done for you, I can probably provide you with an avenue. There are a few freelance take-off guys out there, but they are sometimes hard to find.

I have worked all of my adult life in the excavation field, 21 years being in the business myself. I have a few contacts that may be able to help you, or if this is an isolated thing, I may be able to help.

If you want to contact me off list, my email is xxxxxxxxxx. If you want information about me, contact our moderator, digger242, as we are friends.

:usa

[digger242j]

I edited Don's email out, because the spambots search for that sort of thing. There's an email function on each user's profile that'll send one through the board here. Once contact has been established that way, or by PM, it can be up to you whether to exchange your personal email addresses, but we always discourage posting them in plain sight. :spaz

[DigDug]

Thanks Don for the help. It isnt a isolated thing, I was looking to use someone frequently to estimate commercial jobs for me. I was wondering if anybody out there did it freelance style. As in i could get them a link to the plans/specs and they could do the estimate based on my prices per yard, per hour, etc.
Maybe theres no such thing and i need someone to do take offs and then i will plug in the numbers.
Thank you, doug

[rino1494]

Why not do it yourself ?? We do all of our own estimating by hand. It isn't hard, it just takes some experience.

[DigDug]

Thanks rino, i guess i dont have the experience. I am mostly a residential contractor and our largest jobs are $250k - $300k subdivision roads. I am looking to bid on some commercial contracts up to $600k' - $750k'ish. Can i buy some software or just use RS. Means estimating books? I am not experienced in doing take offs and estimating larger projects , thought i would sub this out to a estimator. Where did you get the experience in bidding. doug

[rino1494]

We are a small business (3 employees, plus my dad). It is his business. We build developments, do house work and small commercial sites. We just learned from hard knocks. Maybe you could hire out the first job to a estimator and figure out the bid yourself and compare the 2 bids and see how you did. IMO, it is kinda hard to have a "outsider" do you bidding. Personally, I would like to know if I'll be making money or not.

[DigDug]

OK, sounds like I should be estimating them myself. I guess thats what i will do. I had just heard that other companies were using estimators , they must mean they have someone in house. I have been bidding on some larger jobs in the last year and i am not within a row of ***holes of getting the bid. I think i was looking for someone to compare my estimating practices next to. Maybe see why i'm so far off. Thanks for the help. doug

[rino1494]

Why are you losing the jobs, are you too high or too low ???

Most of the larger companies in my area have multiple in-house estimators and they use computer programs. I have no experience with computer programs. Everyone that uses them loves them. This might be a option if you do enough bids. Good luck to you.

[Jeff D.]

DigDug, I bought a book that was just about estimating but found out it's geared toward BIG jobs and way over my head.

The book is Estimating excavation by Deryl Burch, about 446 pages of formula's etc.

Here's the book : http://www.amazon.com/Estimating-Excavation-Deryl-Burch/dp/0934041962 You can page through it online I guess.

Take a look at it, and if you want it I'll send it too you. No charge.(unless you want to pay the shipping)

It's still practically brand new. It's just collecting dust here.:yup

PM me if it's something you're intersted in.

[jmac]

I ran into the same problem. The jobs I was used too quoting are smaller than yours, under 100k. I contacted some GC’s in my area and was put on their bid lists for site work. The one GC’s that I had worked for so far up to that point was the only one and he and I would sit down together, go over the plans and come up with a number. He is going to use me no matter what as long as my number was reasonable and he got the contract. So this is a great working relationship. My thinking was can I develop this same relationship with other GC’s. The answer is no, so far. The other GC’s use me to get a number; my number is best some times but still hires the excavator that they want to use anyways. They just tell him my number to keep him honest. The GC has to get viable bids on most sub work and you could be one of them. You have to watch out for this, because it does take a lot of time to quote a larger project. The process is the same as a smaller project, just more of the same kind of work you are used to. So use the same math but discount it some because of the work will be in one location and more money or volume. I did do some sub work for another larger excavating company than myself last summer and that help a lot, he was busy and I took the work that he couldn’t do at the time. Bottom line is GC’s are very, very tough; the best case snareio is to build a relationship with GC on a smaller project before you take larger project from them for a lot of reason. I am to the point with a couple of guys that they do tell me if my number is good, but that doesn’t grant me the work. I have asked for smaller work from the new contacts that I have made and have explained to them why, for the reasons listed below. I have also explained to them that I am not a quoting machine just so they can get the 3 quotes that they need. I have also requested to meet with the final decision maker from each GC, maybe lunch to explain to them what I am capable of and what I am not capable of. I also have requested to meet with the decision makers to have them tell me that if my number is the best on a project that I can handle that I will get the work. I am to the point that I had a couple of nice projects lined up if the GC was awarded the contract, both times he didn’t get the work. I am sure that some of the site work guys on here can add a lot to this, this is just what I have found out in the last few summers. I have also declined to quote work from one GC because I have quoted about a dozen jobs and was told that my number was best and still did't get the work. So now when they call I am to busy to do the job.

You want to make sure they pay, including the retainage
You want to know how they treat you in the process
Your exposer is as little as possible if they do not pay.
The GC gets all warm and fuzzy from your work if the job is small enough so it is very easy for your company to really shine

[digger242j]

Here ya go, Jeff. I'm sure this one is more your speed...

:bouncegri

[Jeff D.]

Here ya go, Jeff. I'm sure this one is more your speed...

:bouncegriThat probobly true!:crying :wink2

That estimating book I bought above talked about which gear to run your scrapers in to maximize the amount of earth moved per hour, and..............well I think I feel asleep by that point. It was geared for the big boys, not for me to help give a price to replace a driveway culvert.

I did get some other really good books from Amazon about operating TLB's and dozers so my order wasn't a complete waste.

I just pick it up when I can't sleep, 2 pages and I'm out.:sleeping
A tax man or an accountant would like that sort of book.

[Countryboy]

Alright, I'm ready to soak up more information. :yup

Whats the deal with the whole bidding process? I understand that people want the most for their money but why not call people who do the work you want and take the best price. Where do all those formulas and programs come into play, after all its the lowest price you're looking for right? Why does it have to be so difficult? I'm not trying to down play the bidding process, I just don't understand it. And does it benefit both parties or just the customer? :confused:

I think I'm the one that needs that book.

[jmac]

Whats the deal with the whole bidding process? I understand that people want the most for their money but why not call people who do the work you want and take the best price. Where do all those formulas and programs come into play, after all its the lowest price you're looking for right? Why does it have to be so difficult? I'm not trying to down play the bidding process, I just don't understand it. And does it benefit both parties or just the customer?

The bid process is if the project has many kinds of work to be done that one type of contractor can not do say: eletrical, framing,mason,exavator,etc.
Take a new bank or drug store, the drug store company ask General Contractors to bid on the new store. The General Contractor ask for bids from all the sub contractors for each type of work; excavatiing is one of the sub types of work that needs to be done. Then the GC puts all those numbers together plus his work and profit and bids the new Drug store. If he gets the job to do the new drug store than you hope he calls you to do your part, say the excavating. But just because your price was the best and the GC got the job doesn't mean you get the work, he could give the excavating work to who ever he wants to at the time. This process can take 12 months before the ground is even broken. All parties benefit if you get the work, make money on the job, and get paid by General Contractor, who doesn't pay you your part until he gets paid from the drug store.

As far as the software goes, you need every tool to make your bid as low as possible but still make the profit you want. You need to know cuts and fills, trucking cost, plumbing cost, how much of each and one math mistake can put you in the poor house. You sign a contract to do the work for "x" in "x" amount of time or you don't get paid. All this is why many Excavators do not do commercial work, but many do because if all goes well the size of the jobs are much bigger, more money.

[Countryboy]

Thats rough. :spaz

If I do some work I want half to start and the rest before I leave after I finish. Now, I only do a couple of small jobs when time allows but I don't wait for money. This might only benefit me because the few jobs I do are just supplemental income but I don't think I could do that for a living. I got respect for yall that do this because not only do you got to do the job but you also gotta sometimes work to get your money. If I don't get paid then I take my work back:nono . Sometimes I will trade work for work. Lets say somebody needs a lot cleared and they have a dump truck. I cleared his lot and he hauled all my rock for my 1/2 mile driveway.

[jmac]

It all depends on what you want to do and how big you want to get. I have alot of over head so I sometimes need bigger work to keep the ball rolling. Every time I buy a new machine, excavator, dump truck dozer what ever, I need more money to feed the check book. That is why it is so hard for someone to start a excavating company because of the money it takes. As a side line, say a skid steer and a pick up is not a bad way to go. In about 10 years when allot of overhead will be paid for, thats when you have allot of equity, and you have very good cash flow.

[Countryboy]

I don't have any overhead since I don't own any equipment...right now at least. I have the general concept of the bidding process now, thanks Jmac :thumbsup , but I guess I won't completely understand the concept unless I got into the business.

[DigDug]

Why are you losing the jobs, are you too high or too low ???

Most of the larger companies in my area have multiple in-house estimators and they use computer programs. I have no experience with computer programs. Everyone that uses them loves them. This might be a option if you do enough bids. Good luck to you.

I've been to high. I think i need to factor in that a crew would be in one spot for a longer time and there might be more usable material or salvagable loam etc on a larger site , less mobilization etc. I am getting alot of good info on this thread , that i'm not the only one needing info on estimating practices.

[DigDug]

DigDug, I bought a book that was just about estimating but found out it's geared toward BIG jobs and way over my head.

The book is Estimating excavation by Deryl Burch, about 446 pages of formula's etc.

Here's the book : http://www.amazon.com/Estimating-Excavation-Deryl-Burch/dp/0934041962 You can page through it online I guess.

Take a look at it, and if you want it I'll send it too you. No charge.(unless you want to pay the shipping)

It's still practically brand new. It's just collecting dust here.:yup

PM me if it's something you're intersted in.

I Pm'ed you. I am interested. Thanks for the help. doug

[Countryboy]

I've been to high. I think i need to factor in that a crew would be in one spot for a longer time and there might be more usable material or salvagable loam etc on a larger site , less mobilization etc. I am getting alot of good info on this thread , that i'm not the only one needing info on estimating practices.

Yes, it has been informative. Although I don't need one, its nice to learn how the process works.:yup

[Wolf]

Does it cover estimating for demolition, or just the excavation once the structure is down and gone?

[Jeff D.]

Does it cover estimating for demolition, or just the excavation once the structure is down and gone?You know,I don't recall any demo estimating in the book.

I sent it off already so I can't even take a peek now to see. Sorry!

[CascadeScaper]

I bought the "Estimating Excavation" book Jeff is talking about, great book. Helped me out ALOT. I used it on about 3 jobs this summer that were just a little above my expertise level. Bidding on $25K jobs at the age of 20 was something that I wasn't really ready to do, I just had to do it. Book helped me alot, especially the formulas.

[fensoncont.]

This may sound wierd because of my age, but I know a fair amount about excavation work. I have the Estimating Excavation book, and read it, loved it. I also have the Caterpillar Performance Handbook Edition 36, and I have read the earthmoving section. I get old blueprints, documents, and bid tabs from my uncle and then spend hours estimating them. One job the real winning bid was $939,000 on a san. sewer project, and mine was $907,000. Another time his the real winners was $256,000 and mine was $248,000. I'm not sure if anyone will want to ask me a question, but if so please do so.[EMAIL="XXXXXXXXXX[/EMAIL]

Thanks
Nolan

[LaLaMan]

THere are some books out there. Text books not just cost/time books.

I would think that a good way to guage your ability to to get some govt bid work, and bid it, and you can eaisly find out what the winning bid was. Although the govt does not do large site work, maybe in your area the same site work contractors are also doing govt bid work. For instance, Constuctioneer lists in each publication upcoming work to bid on, and then also lists work that has been bid on and who won it, and gives the other 2 non winning contractors price. Since many companies do work for govt, and private it might be good practice.

There are trade orginations that have seminars, and trade publications that advertise for companies that do estimating for companies like yourself.

[dayexco]

being low bidder everytime isn't the answer.

[Countryboy]

I agree Dayexco. I could bid $100,000 for a $200,000 job and win the bid. I didn't make any money though. You've got to bid to make profit and cover your costs. Sometimes the numbers just ain't gonna work.

[jmac]

being low bidder everytime isn't the answer.

Thats coming from a guy I think has been around for a while :bouncegri

What I have come to realize is a relationship with the GC is the only way you are going to win. The GC will tell you were your price has to be if they want to use you for the project. Price only counts when you are doing GOV bids and that mostly goes to a GC not an excavating contractor. You will need bonding also to do GOV work. I can get bonding but the bonding company wants to look up my skirt before they will bond me, was a pain to do. I belong to a Builders Association and get a fax every week of all the work being quoted in my state. So if I want to, I can quote the work but it always includes more than just excavating, so what I do is find out who the GC's are that are bidding work and contact them. Back to my original point, the GC can use you for a number but the relationship you have with them will get you the job not your price. You have to sell you company and what you can do for the GC for them to take a chance on you. Or your reputation from other GC's and other projects you have done will get the work. You are only as good as your last biggest project. Then you have to hope they do their part and pay you for your work. Please feel free to add to this, I am learning everyday.

[2004F550]

In college now I am taking estimating and site is by far the hardest that I've learned, gets easier as you go but to start with it is a real time consumer. I am starting to get proficent at it, useing the grids and such, even though no contractor in his right mind would try to use the grid techniquw for big jobs anymore.

[D3B Dave]

Almost all of the work I do is contract work accquired by bidding. I enjoy it since what is expected is spelled out in black and white. Even though a contractor is low bidder he may not get the job. An example of that is December's bid letting for MoDOT. On a project I planned to bid but did not due to requirements I did not like. The low bid as read was 231,815.00, the next low bid was 425,028.50. The next several bidders were in the 400-500 range. The lowest bid did not get the job. The Designer determined that the low bidder was not a responsible bidder, due to his very low bid. The estimated price range was 500K - 750K. Most Designers and Bonding companies want the low bidder to be within 10% of the next bidder. If not they get nervous. My last two bids I was the second low bidder buy 7%. I have found the Cat Performance Hand Book to be very helpful.
I always make a site visit to get a feel of the project. Then I set down with the drawings and begin to work the numbers. I have found that you have to know the cycle times that each project requires. You can then figure your costs.
Moving up to larger jobs is not difficult if you know your cycle times, and the time allowed to complete the job. You can then get a number of equipment and workers required. I add 5% to my bid for TWA (trouble, worry, aggravation).
Sorry for the long post, nothing good on TV.

[jmac]

Dave, do you get bonding on most of your projects? Are you acting as the GC or a sub? Do you have a group of GC's that you work with? Will the GC's tell you if your number is good? Sorry for all the questions. :bouncegri
Thanks

[D3B Dave]

jmac, All of my jobs are bonded except the very few that are under 25K. Those I will bid if it is slow to keep work for an employee.
I always go in as GC, I some times hire subs, but not very often.
Over the years I have come to know some local contractors. Most of them are good friends. Because of that I never discuss any bid work, as I do not know who their friends are. Their friends could be some of my competition.
It takes some experience to know what to bid, it also helps to know who the competition is. I do not worry about bidding too low as you have to know your production costs. I generally decide how much money I want to make off the job, and add that to the production costs.
See Ya

[jmac]

Sounds like you are down the road a lot further than I am. I have been at full time for a relatively short time when it comes to building an excavating company so I have found it hard to make in roads into the larger work. I don't think that I am ready for the GC route yet for many reasons but mostly can't carry that much debt for long time frames. Also don't have the man power or expertise in many of the other trades. Every year gets better with more contacts and that’s a good sign. This is a long term business and it does take a while. The larger projects I have quoted scared me to death, god forbid I get one and have to finance the thing. I know I have to do it, just a little apprehensive. Thanks for the reply, if it was easy everyone would do it. :yup

[DigDug]

I want to thank multiple people on here for all the helpful information that i have recieved in this thread , by email , and even a $40.00 book sent to me free by Jeff D. that i havent been able to put down since it showed up today. This info could never have been found even 10 years ago without the help of the internet and this equipment forum. :notworthy Thanks again. Doug

[Jeff D.]

I want to thank multiple people on here for all the helpful information that i have recieved in this thread , by email , and even a $40.00 book sent to me free by Jeff D. that i havent been able to put down since it showed up today. This info could never have been found even 10 years ago without the help of the internet and this equipment forum. :notworthy Thanks again. DougCool!:thumbsup

[dayexco]

when a GC tells me that "this is where you need to be". i get REAL scared. i know where i have to be. i've had jobs where i've left 25-30% on the table, and had the best profit margins in the end, jobs i got by 1-5%...and barely broke even. there are a lot of factors. how many bidders, how busy is competition, is the job complicated? i've got to the point where i don't worry at all anymore when i hand in bids. for the most part, if i'm the successful low bidder, depending on my work load.........i'll make at least a few bucks. best thing all you can do is the day before bid letting, is find out who planholders are. find out how busy they are in relation to time frame of job. adjust accordingly. all you have to do is prepare a bid where YOU are comfortable with, make money at. if work goes too cheap, they'll be tied up with no margin jobs freeing up the others where there's some room for profit

[rino1494]

when a GC tells me that "this is where you need to be". i get REAL scared. i know where i have to be. i've had jobs where i've left 25-30% on the table, and had the best profit margins in the end, jobs i got by 1-5%...and barely broke even. there are a lot of factors. how many bidders, how busy is competition, is the job complicated? i've got to the point where i don't worry at all anymore when i hand in bids. for the most part, if i'm the successful low bidder, depending on my work load.........i'll make at least a few bucks. best thing all you can do is the day before bid letting, is find out who planholders are. find out how busy they are in relation to time frame of job. adjust accordingly. all you have to do is prepare a bid where YOU are comfortable with, make money at. if work goes too cheap, they'll be tied up with no margin jobs freeing up the others where there's some room for profit

I agree, when we bid jobs we don't worry about being the lowest. No sense in screwing yourself out of money just to get work. That is why we stay small and bid the jobs we want. We don't have to scrounge around looking for work. We have 4 residential developments to bid this year, and we only need 1.

[jmac]

How busy I am has been a big factor. I quoted jobs in the past very low because I had nothing lined up and wanted the work real bad. In the end I did the work way cheaper than what it was worth. When I have had a lot of work lined already my price goes up and thats when i have hit a home run. Problem is I have not been at it long enough to have all my my time taken up, still see slow times ( like this month, no snow to help) and that is no fun. :crying