Cascadescaper need help!

[steven101]

Let me start by saying hello to everyone :cool:
My question is for CS or any body that is knowlegable in excavating.
I recieved a call a couple of days to excavate an area of 21x21x5. I have never done a job this big. I will be renting a Cat 301 with a 12 in bucket with teeth or a bobcat bobcat 223 with a 24 inch bucket.
The reason for these 2 is because I will be hauling one or the other on a 14ft trailer,and i
dont want to overload it. If somebody could chime in and help me with a ball park figure on how much time it will take to excavate this area.
Thank you for you time. And let me add,that this is a great site!!

[digger242j]

I will be renting a Cat 301 with a 12 in bucket...

You will quite literally go mad, trying to move that much dirt with a 12" bucket. :Banghead

Outside of that, the time factor will depend on some other factors, like whether you're loading the spoil into a truck, or keeping it on site. A hole that size will make a fair sized pile of dirt--if the machine isn't big enough to cast it all the way out of the way, you're going to be moving it twice, or more. (And that goes for any given machine digging any given hole.) Do you have any idea of how the digging is? Soft dirt will go faster than rock, (which you could find even at a shallow depth.) Operator proficiency is a big factor too. If this is your first time, you'll spend some time learning.

Give us some more background, and we can answer more specifically.

And welcome to the forums! :)

[jazak]

Do you have any pics of the area that needs to be excavated??

[steven101]

Thank you guys for responding,
Digger242j the area in question is all open, it will be stockpiled.
What I had planned to do is, excavate and move it to another area with a skidsteer (got a helper).
As for rocky soil its not very common here.Mostly clay and soil.
This is about my third time doing a excavating project. BY ALL MEANS I AM NOT AN EXEPERT LIKE YOU GUYS. I would consider myself a beginer.
What about the bobcat 223 with a 24in bucket? or what excavator do you guys recommend (bare miniumim)?

Thanks Jazak for responding too. But i dont Know how to upload pictures:cussing

[dayexco]

81.66 cubic yards. at 5' depth, how much reach do the mini's have? how much of a flat bottom can you grade at 5' deep is what i'm asking. plug in your rental rate of the excavator, the fuel, consumeables, total cost of your laborer, your overhead, how much you pay yourself, % of profit your company wants to make. voila! that's what you charge them!

[digger242j]

Bobcat 223? I can't find a 223 listed on their website. (I don't have an encyclopedic knowlege of brands and models in my head like some of the members do, so I'm not saying there isn't a 223, but are you sure you've got the number right?)

You said a 14' trailer. What's the weight capacity of the trailer? Could you get the rental house to deliver one, if you could use something bigger?

I can walk you through uploading pictures if you want to post any.

plug in your rental rate of the excavator, the fuel, consumeables, total cost of your laborer, your overhead, how much you pay yourself, % of profit your company wants to make. voila! that's what you charge them!

I think Steven is trying to get a handle on whether he's going to be renting the excavator for one day, or three, and he can probably do the math from there. It always seems that having confidence in the numbers that you're going to plug in is the hardest part for guys that ask for this kind of advice.

[Tigerotor77W]

I thought the 223 was the series before the 300-series, but then I realized that the 323 is a new model, so there was no "before-300 series" x23.

Perhaps you could clarify this, so we know how big the machine is.

[steven101]

Thank you Dayexco
bobcat 323 has a reach of 154in.
As for flat bottom, it does not have to leveled. It is going to be backfilled
with crushed gravel.
Im not to concerned about what to charge as this job will be billed by the hour. Basicly,Im just looking for a ball park time frame.
thanks again

[steven101]

Thank you Dayexco
bobcat 323 has a reach of 154in.
As for flat bottom, it does not have to leveled. It is going to be backfilled
with crushed gravel.
Im not to concerned about what to charge as this job will be billed by the hour. Basicly,Im just looking for a ball park time frame.
thanks again
Sorry Gents, but its a 323 model

[steven101]

Bobcat 223? I can't find a 223 listed on their website. (I don't have an encyclopedic knowlege of brands and models in my head like some of the members do, so I'm not saying there isn't a 223, but are you sure you've got the number right?)

You said a 14' trailer. What's the weight capacity of the trailer? Could you get the rental house to deliver one, if you could use something bigger?

I can walk you through uploading pictures if you want to post any.



I think Steven is trying to get a handle on whether he's going to be renting the excavator for one day, or three, and he can probably do the math from there. It always seems that having confidence in the numbers that you're going to plug in is the hardest part for guys that ask for this kind of advice.

Thanks again Digger242j
Well the trailer is a mac lander I believe it has a gvwr of 9000 lbs.
I could probably have them deliever one, but what size do you recommend?
For me the smaller the better,because I never operated a big excavator.
In the past, Ive rented one for my bobcat S185.
Your right, I meant to say bobcat 323 model.
As for pictures, do they make a disposable digital cameras:laugh

[jmac]

I think a 323 is smaller than a 331 so about 6500 lbs or so. Small for what you want to do but it can be done. If you are billing by the hour you just don't want to take so long that the customer will think he overpaid for the work. I would say that with that machine and a skid steer you should take you about 2.5 to 3 days to do. The excavator is worth about $65 to 75$ an hour and skid steer the same. So by the hour with both machines your talking about $3500. A little high if you ask me. I would charge around $1500 for the hole and do it in one day with a larger machine. If the skid steer has tracks on it ( material could be wet) you can dig it with excavator and move with skid steer and maybe get it done in 2 days $2400, still a little more than having a larger machine to do it with. The smaller jobs are tough because this job is big enough for larger excavator but to small to justify rental on bigger machine. My suggestion is do the job for around $2000 and take as long as you need.

[steven101]

Thanks Jmac for all your help.
I know their are alot of varibles that come into play but, I just have one ? is it feasible to expect the bobcat 323 to dig aprox. 4 cubic yards an hour with a 24in bucket?

[dayexco]

i would "think" you could cycle 3 times a minute at least, let's say that machine has an 1/8th yard bucket

8/1=.125 cu. yds....x3 cycles per min. = .375 yds per min....x 60 mins per hr. =22.5 yds per hr. you don't have any trim passes to contend with the way it sounds, so these should be a realistic production rate.

[srs_mn]

[QUOTE=jmac;19285]
The excavator is worth about $65 to 75$ an hour and skid steer the same. So by the hour with both machines your talking about $3500. A little high if you ask me. I would charge around $1500 for the hole and do it in one day with a larger machine.

Hi Boys,
Wow!!! I retired too soon! Do you guys really get this kind of money to dig a hole of less than 100CY? I realize that I do all my thinking in terms of 1970 dollars, but even using the "low" figure of $1500.00, that's $15.00 a yard for digging a small hole and piling the dirt on site! I might just get back in the business! :)
srs

[CascadeScaper]

So I've calculated about 80 yards of spoil, give or take. First of all, where is the dirt going? Trucks or staying on site? If you can keep it on site, you'll need a skid steer to shuttle material away from the hole. If it's going out, you'll need a bigger excavator, or a mode of loading the trucks. I could move that 80 yards in about half a day with a 120 and 1 truck depending on drive time to the spoil dump site. If I was bidding this job, I'd figure at least $1500 or so, 6 hours of trucking at $75/hr. and for these small jobs I won't move a 12 ton excavator for less than $1,000.

For your particular job I need to know what you're doing with the dirt. This affects the cost tremendously. I'd safely say you can move 15-20 yard per hour with a 323, but with a 24" bucket it's going to struggle. Our 303CR slings a 24" and sometimes even that's too much bucket for a 7,300 pound machine. I moved 300 yards in 2 days with the 303, I was cutting a 40X35 bench into a slope. The only way this was possible was because I was able to push the material over the hinge, couldn't get a skid steer down into the hole. Top of the cut was 14 feet from the floor. Don't fool yourself, you can do a lot with a small machine, it just takes a little longer.

[xkvator]

i think the 24'' bucket might be too big for the 323. that machine only weighs 3700#...trying to take that big of a bite, you might drag the machine alot.
and with a full bucket, will want to tip when swung over the side

a 325/328 weighs 6500#...might be a better choice...JMO

[digger242j]

Do we all get a cut of your consulting fee?

:wink2

[jmac]

i think the 24'' bucket might be too big for the 323. that machine only weighs 3700#...trying to take that big of a bite, you might drag the machine alot.

That makes it even tougher, I thought the 323 is 6500 lbs but if it is 3700# thats changes things.

8/1=.125 cu. yds....x3 cycles per min. = .375 yds per min....x 60 mins per hr. =22.5 yds per hr. you don't have any trim passes to contend with the way it sounds, so these should be a realistic production rate.

Dayexco, that would mean that he could get it done in 4 to 5 hours, thats pretty fast.

Wow!!! I retired too soon! Do you guys really get this kind of money to dig a hole of less than 100CY? I realize that I do all my thinking in terms of 1970 dollars, but even using the "low" figure of $1500.00, that's $15.00 a yard for digging a small hole and piling the dirt on site! I might just get back in the business!
srs

Remember you have to move the machine, My rate is 1000 to 1500 per day with 16 yrd dump truck and excavator. I think this is close to the "going rate" at least in my area.

Do we all get a cut of your consulting fee?

can I get some?

[Countryboy]

There are plenty of people on here who have more knowledge about the logistics of this project so I will take on this question:

As for pictures, do they make a disposable digital cameras:laugh

Yes they do. You'll find um at Walmart. :wink2

[dayexco]

all of you people's pricing structure is way out from where i'm at....typically, in my area, i never have to mobe more than 4 miles...around here, i consider that to be about $250.00....and $250 back out....81 yds i could pitch out with the 210 in less than an hour, 544g deere loader to stack if need be, mobe in, mobe out, hrs. rent....another $350. would run the guy 1600 tops,

[Bob Horrell]

If you can have a ramp at one end, why not dig it with your S185. Out here in California we dig most pools with a bobcat in one day and they average 110 to 140 yds of material. Of course there is always the rocky son of a gun that comes up every now and then and those can't be dug with a mini excavator anyway.

[CascadeScaper]

Do we all get a cut of your consulting fee?

:wink2

I dunno, at my ripe age of 20, it's been said that I know everything :bouncegri

[tylermckee]

I would just have a rental yard drop off a 120. should take you no more than a day, more like a couple hours.

[nedly05]

I would definitly have a larger machine dropped off, you can do it with a 3 ton machine, but it would be faster easier and make you look better if you had a bigger rig there, I would go no smaller than an 8 ton. IMO. GOOD LUCK.:thumbsup

[steven101]

Sorry guys for not responding, my dog was hit by a car.
So I had to spend most of my day at a vet.
I guess theirs fluid leaking from his heart,so its to early to tell.
So now, Im going to spend a good day at the vet again.
Thank you all for responding so quickly:cool:
You all have made excellant points. As for the job, Im going to submit a proposal on wensday or early morning thursday. I will call tomrrow and find out how much it will cost to rent a larger one,or stick with the original plan.
One last thing, the contractor said that the spoil just needs to be moved out of the way. So its not going to be moved to far.
He also wants a bid to haul it out,but will see.
Again, I just want to thank everyone who participated in this discussion and
Heavy equipment forum.

[xkvator]

Sorry to hear about your dog, Steven...hope all goes well...

[jmac]

this job, and how to do it seams trivial after you dog got hit by a car, sorry to hear that.



all of you people's pricing structure is way out from where i'm at....typically, in my area, i never have to mobe more than 4 miles...around here, i consider that to be about $250.00....and $250 back out....81 yds i could pitch out with the 210 in less than an hour, 544g deere loader to stack if need be, mobe in, mobe out, hrs. rent....another $350. would run the guy 1600 tops,

Dayexco, every one said about $1500 and one day for this job, with the correct machine. Steven is trying to use a very small machine so it with take him much longer and that's main reason for this thread. Job is to small IMO to rent a 120 for but to big for a 3700 lb mini excavator.

[dayexco]

Dayexco, that would mean that he could get it done in 4 to 5 hours, thats pretty fast.

jmac, not really. with a 45k lb hoe, if an operator can't cycle a min. of 3 times in a min. at 5' depth, he's not much of an operator. those mini's should cycle as fast or faster. those calculations i posted were with an assumed bucket capacity of 1/8th of a yard. it sounds as though he's just hogging out a hole 5' deep 21' square, and that making trim passes, having a grade checker in the bottom isn't an issue here. i think that production rate i posted was very accurate as to what i'd expect out of that machine at that depth, in those conditions with an average operator.

[Tommjr]

I get 81 cubic yards + the 25% fluff.

I have a VIO 50 w/ 30" sand bucket, that would be the machine I would use.

I agree with the rest of the guys, you do need a larger excavator.

[xkvator]

jus' thinkin'...the 323 has a max dig depth of 90''...so there's not gonna be much digging power/reach at 5'...
JMO...but it might be easier to dig it in 2 1/2' layers...

[jmac]

Maybe your correct dayexco, but for me it always takes longer and costs more than I plan. That being said, I had a 331 made by bobcat twice the weight of the 323 ( the 323 weighs less than 2 tons from what xkvator said)and I would of planned on two days. I will bet you a chicken dinner that it will take him longer than 4 to 5 hours ( I could be wrong, won't be the first) I hope he tells us how long it takes him when he's done. So Steven please do tell when your done, we want to know!:yup

Rite now it is snowing and I have a parking lot to put in, in the morning, so I hope it stops. My roller doesn't work very well in the snow, for some reason it just spins the tires.

[CascadeScaper]

Two days with the 323, 1 day with a 3 ton machine. This is assuming he has another guy in a skid steer shuttling material away from the hole. That 323 should be cycling 3-4 a minute, I can hit 5 cycles a minute with our pretty easy. This is assuming he's just "throwing" dirt away from the hole, those cycles times should be very easy to reach.

[Cat420]

Here's a picture of the 323
http://www.bobcat.com.au/images/high_resol/press_july_2005_323excavator.jpg

A machine that small has it's purpose, but I don't think this project is it. If you owned one that would be different, but since you have to rent something anyway it will be better to go a little bigger. A 120 would blow through this hole very quickly, but a 10-12,000lb machine would probably be a good compromise between cost, production, and not taking up too much space on site. By me it would only be around $110 round trip to have that size machine dropped off by the rental place. You'll really kill yourself with the limited reach of something as small as a 301. Also don't worry about not being very experienced on a bigger machine, the controls are all basically the same and after a day using a medium size one, I bet you will be looking to play the the biggest ones out there.

[Electra_Glide]

A 120 would blow through this hole very quickly, but a 10-12,000lb machine would probably be a good compromise between cost, production, and not taking up too much space on site.

I agree with Cat's assessment. A machine of that size would be a good compromise. I wouldn't worry about your trailer, just have the rental company deliver it. The delivery charge for that size machine is certainly going to be a lot less than a 120.

I used a 323 to do this job:

http://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/Forum/showpost.php?p=14082&postcount=212

The 323 was the right machine for this job due to the tight conditions I was working in. If I remember right, each area was just under 20' x 20'. Depth was about 36" in the middle and 48" for the footer trenches. Spoils were cast off behind me and then moved with a skidsteer and stockpiled. Bewteen me not being the fastest operator (I'd rather be good than fast), and the tight conditions (had to take a bunch of time when I repositioned the excavator to make sure I didn't knock down the roof), it took two 8-hour days with me doing everything (layout, grade checking, excavator, and skidsteer). I ran into shale and had to spend some time in the trench to bust it up because the machine didn't have enough power/weight to do it on it's own.

As others have already said, a 323 is going to be a little small for what you want to do. It will work, but it's going to take a while. The reach isn't going to be there if you're going 5' down. Even though the hole is going to be backfilled with gravel, you're still going to have to be close on your grade and will have to do some grading on the bottom. Whoever you're working for is going to determine the quantity of gravel they need based on the 21x21x5 dimmensions. If you end up with one end of your hole way off from the other, they're going to be putting in more gravel than they figured and you're costing them money (this is the voice of experience here...:crying).

Also remember that even though this is a "by-the-hour" job, you can't let to costs get so far out of line (due to the job taking too long) that the customer feels they are not getting a good value for their money. In my area, this job is "worth" about $1300-$1500 dollars, since lots of guys would come in and knock this out with a full-size TLB in a day. You can charge whatever price you want, but if it's significantly higher than what the market will bear, you might not get many call-backs.

Good luck, and let us know how it works out...oh yea, and take a bunch of pictures to share with the class...:thumbsup

Hey Digger, what's my cut of the consulting fees :waving ?

Joe

[CascadeScaper]

Hey Digger, what's my cut of the consulting fees :waving ?

Joe

Ahem, I'll be the judge of that! :thumbsup You're right, the hourly costs between machines aren't linear (as we all know). Meaning, a backhoe at $90 per hour is 3 times more productive than a 323 that is $60. If it was linear, the 323 would be $30. That doesn't pencil out. That's the problem with smaller machines, they have their place, but you will be outbid on the larger projects with smaller equipment as their productivity just isn't there. Rent a 12K pound machine and kill the job in a day. $1500, call it good. You'll easily make money there, and truth be told you could make good at $1200.

[Tommjr]

I'll sell you the perfect backyard machine:bouncegri

[digger242j]

Hey Digger, what's my cut of the consulting fees

This will be reply #37, but 6 of those were from the original poster, so as of now, you get 1/31. Of course, as the replies add up, your cut goes down, unless you're adding replies too. Fer instance, just by posting this, my share went fom 3/30 to 4/31. CS is in charge of exactly how much the fee will be, but if we keep it up, I think we can get Steven to take a loss on the job, no matter how much he charges... :yup

[Countryboy]

Sooo, if I get a cut for my disposable digital camera expertise then that makes everybody's cut...umm...err...$100 sounds good to me. :yup

[jimsbcs]

If you can have a ramp at one end, why not dig it with your S185. Out here in California we dig most pools with a bobcat in one day and they average 110 to 140 yds of material. Of course there is always the rocky son of a gun that comes up every now and then and those can't be dug with a mini excavator anyway.

This is what I would do also. and have done many times. Why rent a mini when you can do it with your S185. :yup Jim