Triple Duals

[bsmith]

I have a 1996 one ton, 4 door, long bed, 4wd, big block v8 Chevy pickup truck, non dualie on my 470 acre ranch. On this ranch I also have accumulated a number of pieces of heavy equipment including a JD 650g dozer (19,000 lbs), a 68' Condor boom lift (23,000 lbs), a JD 6400 and a JD 2955 tractor. I am looking to obtain a medium size motor grader as well, probably about 25,000 lbs. I do not presently own an equipment trailer. All of this stuff is used on the ranch only, and when I need to take something to a shop I pay to have it moved. I wish I could move the equipment myself occassionally, plus go pick up 40' sticks of rebar or 32' joints of oil field pipe or maybe some long cees and zees for building construction.

Obviously I need an equipment trailer, probably a gooseneck 35' + 5' dove. However, I don't want to have to deal with a dualie truck all the time since I tow heavy stuff infrequently, maybe once a month and not very far at that (less than 50 miles). So I was wondering if a triple 10k axel trailer with duals would be practical. It would be less weight on the bed of the truck and provide 12 wheels of braking power such that a non-dualie truck could probably manage ok for limited use.

A gooseneck triple axel dual 35+5 is about $10,000 new, which is more than I can justify. And finding one used is very rare. But I could find a used 35+5 tandem dual easily and add another axel or I could look for a long enough triple axel dual "tag along" and fabricate a gooseneck for the tag along. Which route would be best to take in getting to a triple axel dual equipment trailer? And do you all agree that the truck and trailer I have described could make occasional short slow hauls with a 25,000 lb cargo load? Remember as farm use in Texas, I have a $34,000 pound cargo limit for personal use.
Bill

[Dwan Hall]

Seems like on a farm 1 could always use a larger truck. For what you are looking for if you can make the truck trailer combo legal then it would be ok but I don't beleave any 1 ton truck can pull a 30,000 load legaly.

You did mention a grader well this may be right up your street. It looks in great shape and the price may be right. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=002&item=120039363361&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

[Countryboy]

The 1 ton with all that weight is a bad idea. A percentage of the weight on the trailer must be put on the truck. This is tongue weight. I can't remember the percentage but with the weights you are giving, the truck will be overloaded pretty badly. The 3rd axle would be good to add capacity to the trailer if you need it but your truck also has to be able to handle the extra weight.

[Dozerboy]

X2 no way you'll be legal or safe, but I have seen a JD 650 pulled by a 3/4 ton on a triple axel in rural areas.

[bsmith]

Dwan, the grader you show is pretty close to what I am looking for. But it is a 69 model and I would rather have something newer with a sliding moldboard. Just as Dozerboy mentioned seeing a 3/4 ton truck tow a dozer like mine, it doesn't seem unreasonable that a 1 ton could do it carefully in rural areas.

Looking at converting a triple dual tag trailer to gooseneck, they really don't have the length I need for other purposes like hauling 40' sticks of rebar and other structural members so I will look for a used 35+5 GN dove to add an axel to.

Triple axel duals on a long 35+5 trailer allow loads like a dozer to be positioned to give whatever tongue weight is optimal for a 1 ton truck. It is a long load like a motorgrader that could cause excessive tongue weight for a one ton truck to handle. But such a load is the least likely thing I would ever move. And again, all the really heavy hauling I would like to be able to do would be infrequent and would be done slowly on mostly rural roads.

If anyone knows of a good deal on a used 35+5 dove GN trailer, please let me know.
Bill

[Dwan Hall]

That grader has a sliding blade. it will offset 8' to eather side of the grader and has a 12' blade. It is almost the same as the 1963 supper 300 I have. it just doesn't have any riper setup. it does have all 6 wheel drive and both front and rear wheel steering. If I was anyware within 500 miles I would be sure to check it out as it looks in real good shape from the pictures. I have seen a lot of them in much worse condition go for around $5000.

Dwan

[bsmith]

Hey Dwan, I didn't realize that motorgrader had those features. I guess I just assumed less of it. It is only 3 hours away from me. I put it in my eBay watch list. I may bid on it in the last hour. If you see smithranch2700 win it, that will be me. Thanks again.
Bill

[Dwan Hall]

Good luck if you get it let me know and I can turn you on to a parts supplyer if needed.

[Jeff D.]

........do you all agree that the truck and trailer I have described could make occasional short slow hauls with a 25,000 lb cargo load? Remember as farm use in Texas, I have a $34,000 pound cargo limit for personal use.
BillBill, is the trailer going to be a triple axle, with duel tires, so a total of 12 tires on the trailer?

I'm guessing, but the trailer would probobly weigh around 8-10k lbs empty, plus the weight on your equipment(25k lbs), plus the weight of your truck(7k lbs?), for a total of upto 40k lbs. Would that exceed the "farm use" limit? Is the 34klbs limit for gross combined vehicle weight?

I'm a big fan of gooseneck trailers, and with them you can tow alot of weight, but I wonder about the unknown "what if's" (a car pulls out, etc.). If you were in excess of legal limits and hit some bozo that pulls infront of you it's going to be bad news. Especially if your insurance won't stand behind you.

Also, I'm assuming they're going to be electric brakes. I'd sure worry about them not working for some reason, when that heavy. It would take forever to stop without them.

If the brakes were working, the load loaded right (10%-15%+ pin weight minimum), you weren't exceeding any axle/tire weight ratings, and not breaking any laws, I'd say that set-up would work, if you were very careful and took it real easy. It is going to be alot of stress on you trucks engine/driveline though. I'd think the pin weight would need to be arond 3-4k lbs. Can a 1 ton non-duelly take that much in the box legally?

A person would be crazy to try it with a 1 ton pick-up and a tag along trailer, I don't care how slow they drove.

Good Luck making up your mind.

[Countryboy]

10%-15% pin weight was the figure I was looking for. Less then that and stopping and turning will be hard, if possible at all, with that much weight on the trailer. The tongue weight gives your truck enough traction to make turns and stop. That 1 ton is just not rated for it. Hope this helps and good luck with your trailer hunting.

[Jeff D.]

The triple axles are harder to turn too.:yup They just don't like going around corners. They're also hard on the trailers suspension.

I bought a triple with single tires & pintle for behind my dump truck. The only reason I did was for it's purchase price, otherwise I would've gotton a tandem duels set-up instead. They are a much better design.

A triple w/duels like Bill is looking at may be better than the single tire triples.:beatsme They'de still turn hard though.

On a side note, a guy I know (I was thinking of buying his dozer) had an Allis HD-6 dozer. It's an operating weight about 16k lbs. He pulled it with his 1 ton Ford on a triple axle trailer once, with a bumper hitch.:eek:

When he was turning into the driveway where he was going to off load it he drove over some loose gravel and the trailer pushed the back of his pick-up around and into the ditch.

He said he was just barely moving when it happened, but it was still too fast for him to react.

He said he never tried transporting the dozer himself again. He went back to paying to have it moved.

A gooseneck would be better, but things can still go bad in a hurry if somethings just not perfect. There's no room for error at those weights behind a pick-up truck.

[Cat420]

I wouldn't want to deal with the risk. If you don't have the money for a good truck and trailer, you certainly don't have the money to cover a bad accident with an under sized truck. Even and old S/A tractor with a tandem tag along trailer would beat the pants off a 1 ton for safety.

[Dwan Hall]

If you buy the grader you could put a hitch on the back of it and pull most anysize trailer with your 1 ton on it. I have seen many graders in Montana with tow bars hooked up to county trucks. (the grader pulled the truck) That way they could leave the grader in the field and drive the truck home.

[334 lawn co]

dont overload it or this might happen.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7118762668179139291&q=dozer

[bsmith]

JeffD, yes triple duals works out to 12 tires. This link http://www.autoblog.com/2005/09/27/a-brief-primer-on-pickup-truck-payload-capacities/ discusses the true capacity of a "one ton" truck. A one ton with duals has a real bed payload capacity of 5,000 lbs or so. The rear axel itself is rated for 9,000 lbs. Even a 3/4 ton truck with single rears has a true payload capacity of about 3,300 lbs. So a one ton truck with single rears can handle over 3,500 lbs of bed weight or pin weight on a gooseneck hitch.

The Texas law of 34,000 lbs max is a tandem dual axel max as would be measured with just those wheels on the scale. A triple dual axel setup follows a formula as defined here http://law.onecle.com/texas/transportation/621.101.html With triple duals spaced 4' apart the Texas maximum calculates to 42,000 lbs.

My max cargo weight is 25,000 (probably a future motograder, Dwan look who is winning the bid on the Austin-Western). Most of my use would be typical utility uses less than 10,000 lbs. My most common heavy load would be my 19,000 lb dozer. But lets see how the numbers work with 25,000 lbs. A 35+5 GN trailer typically weighs 9,840 lbs (see http://www.bigtextrailers.com/pdf/25gn.pdf for sample weights) Add this to 25,000 and you get 34,840 lbs. Position the load such that about 14% of the total weight goes to the hitch ball and you get 4,840lbs on the truck bed and the remaining 30,000 lbs on the triple duals (each axel a 10K Dexter) and you have the loads just covered by both the truck and trailer. Use 12K dexter axels and you could drop the truck bed load to the minimum 10% of total trailer/load weight which is 3,840lbs and the trailer would have strength to spare.

The triple duals approach with a one ton truck puts you on the ragged edge of limits, but for infrequent, slow and careful non-commercial use, I think the risks are not extreme.

If I had this setup, the next time my wife wants to wash the 2nd story large picture windows of our house, I would say no problem, I'll bring home (7 miles away) the 23,000 lb 68' Condor boom llift and you can reach them with ease.
Bill

[greywynd]

I have a one ton dually, and a 3/4 ton, and do a lot of trailer towing with both. I wouldn't even start to think about pulling that sort of weight behind either truck. I often pull close to the max my one trailer will carry (12K), and even at that I'm always watching for the clown coming the other way, or waiting to pull out in front, etc. If I were looking to do what you are.....I would consider using oe piece of equipment to pull another....or look for a little single axle highway truck and float.

Mark

[90plow]

I feel the weight of our bobcat behind the F-650 we use to tow it. I don't know what youd be trying to accomplish by towing with a one ton. If your trying to get in trouble, ruin your truck, or worse kill someone, or kill yourself you might be sucessful. It just sounds like a really bad idea imo and all of you "professionals" telling him it'll be ok should think about having your family driving around him with all that weight behind a set of pickup axels and brakes... then tell him you think its alright. :rolleyes: Get the right equipment to do the job or don't do it.
-Eric

[jmac]

I have a 06' F350 diesel truck and sometimes move my empty 12ton equipment trailer around with it, trailer is 5500 pounds and has electric brakes and I feel the trailer is behind me for sure. Granted you are talking about a dually. Put a 6000 pound skid steer on it and my truck is pulling around 12k pounds and you better watch out for fast stops. The brakes suffer and the truck is not reel safe IMO. I would suggest, use your truck to pull 12k pounds first and you will see what I am talking about. Just think about adding another 24k pounds to that. I don't think the truck will stop. I used to pull trailer with a GMC 6500, single axle dump truck, juice brakes and 16000 lb dozer the gvw of truck was 18000 lbs and that was not safe. Could not stop. Texas doesn't have a max GVWR law? You add the payload and truck together to get this number and you would be way over. The max gcwr (gross, combined, weight, rating,) is 20,000 lbs. Your truck is around 7000 lbs so that nets you around 13,000k for payload. In New York you would get pulled over in a second and go to jail. God forbid you hit someone I think they would have a good case for manslaughter.

[Jeff D.]

.......and all of you "professionals" telling him it'll be ok should think about having your family driving around him with all that weight behind a set of pickup axels and brakes... then tell him you think its alright. :rolleyes:Who would this line be aimed at?!

If you're referring to me, here's also what I said:(regarding brakes)I'd sure worry about them not working for some reason, when that heavy. It would take forever to stop without them.

If you were in excess of legal limits and hit some bozo that pulls infront of you it's going to be bad news. Especially if your insurance won't stand behind you.

If the brakes were working, the load loaded right (10%-15%+ pin weight minimum), you weren't exceeding any axle/tire weight ratings, and not breaking any laws, I'd say that set-up would work, if you were very careful and took it real easy.

A gooseneck would be better, but things can still go bad in a hurry if somethings just not perfect. There's no room for error at those weights behind a pick-up truck.

When he was turning into the driveway where he was going to off load it he drove over some loose gravel and the trailer pushed the back of his pick-up around and into the ditch.

He said he was just barely moving when it happened, but it was still too fast for him to react.

He said he never tried transporting the dozer himself again. He went back to paying to have it moved.I don't read that as "telling him it's ok.......or a big thumbs up". Ultimately he needs to make the desicion himself, and I tried to bring up points that could help him decide. I didn't go out of my way to insult him, belittle him for asking about it, or tell him he's nut's for wanting to do it.

The only other person who had anything that could be remotely considered "Telling him it's ok" was Dwan, and I sure didn't get the feeling from reading his post that he was recommending it.

Also, I do think alot about what goes on on the highways and around other peoples families.

I'm less worried about him pulling his dozer down a 30mph side road once every two years, than a braindead teenager with a cell phone stuck too their head running 80mph in the hammerlane, or some soccer mom in an SUV who thinks she's the only one that matters on the highway.

I'm not sure why you needed to add the above quote to your post, but if you
intended to insult me......................good job!!:thumbsup:mad:

[tylermckee]

Sounds like a recipe for disaster if you ask me, sure i could see towing 30,000#'s around on the ranch for whatever reason, or even heading down some backroads to a neaghbors property or what have you, but anything else i would either hire a truck to move it, or start thinking about investing in a bigger truck that can safely haul that load.

[bsmith]

Guys, the major objection about doing a heavy haul with a one ton truck seems to be about braking issues. Many of you have cited examples with lesser loads than I have described and how horrible the setup felt. I too have felt uncomfortable with my bumper pull 7x14 dump trailer (two 7k axels with singles, only 4 tires) almost fully loaded with 1 1/2 gravel. But I'll bet none of you have ever pulled a gooseneck triple duals trailer (3 axels, duals, all 12 trailer wheels braking). Such trailers are rare in gooseneck form. It's a lot of extra money for the extra axel, brakes, and tires to get just a little more capacity. These trailers are all custom built. The guys who pay the extra amount for this are doing it more for the increased braking effect. They are not trying to get another 10k capacity from the extra axel and neither am I. I want to net another 5k capacity for all that extra money, but mainly I want the brakes. I will write some more later about how these setups work, but really, if you have never pulled a triple dual gooseneck you can't have an informed opinion of how well they work. Your are just guessing based on pulling heavy loads with much less trailer.
Bill

[90plow]

If you feel you were not in the wrong then why did you take offense? I wasn't aiming it anyone in particular but it just seems rediculous to even consider...It is still a pickup with pickup components brakes and motor. I jsut don't see why with the price of the trailer beign so much you wouldn't hire someone to move the machine if you don't move it that often.
-Eric

[Jeff D.]

If you feel you were not in the wrong then why did you take offense? I wasn't aiming it anyone in particular .If this is the case then I apoligize.

I may have jumped to conclusions, but I thought you were referring to my post.

It is a tremedous amount of weight behind a pick-up, and things could end up very badly, if things went wrong.

I can understand why he'd contemplate it. It's nice to use the tools you have already, and there is a big difference between goosenecks/5th wheels, etc. and trailers that hook to bumpers.

It just the weight extremes in this case that are so scary.

[bsmith]

Been pricing 36' GN triple dual trailers with pierced frame (lowers the deck 5"), torque tube (handles uneven weight distribution better), and flush level ramps across the entire back (makes the dove tail like a flat deck). The 31 + 5' dove length allows for the Texas legal 4' overhang when carrying 40' structural members and rebar while keeping the trailer shorter and easier handling for normal equipment hauls. 90Plow wonders why I don't just hire the equipment moved if the need is infrequent. That is in fact what I have been doing for the past five years. But my needs for all kinds of miscellaneous hauling (mainly building supplies and pipe for fences) have grown so much that I really need a heavy trailer for many reasons. A normal tandem dual would do fine for all that stuff, but for about $2,500 more I can add a third axel with 4 wheels and brakes, heavy 30k coupler, and torque tube and then do some occasional heavy equipment hauling (20k plus loads) on short trips on rural roads away from heavy city traffic. For about $9,000 total, I can get such a trailer custom built by Jim Bray at www.texaspridetrailers.com

Rather than buy a larger truck that has to be specially licensed and insured, and is inconvenient for normal ranch use, my non-commercial, limited use situation seems ideal for stretching what a one ton truck can normally do by using a very beefed up equipment trailer.
Bill

[greywynd]

You're not going to like what I say, but to me it looks more and more like you were hoping that you would post this here and get an okay from people to do it, but really everyone has said that either you shouldn't do it, or that it might be ok for one time trips around the farm....

My suggestion? Go ahead and get it, do it, and even though I'm not normally much of a praying man, I pray that WHEN (not if) it goes terribly wrong, no-one gets hurt, including yourself. Yesterday I was riding in a friends truck while he was pulling a 20ton tandem float with duals. Even in a tandem gravel truck, even I (while riding) could feel the trailer behind us. Empty this thing weighs about 5 ton. Put another 10 on it, I just can't imagine tryig to pull this with a one ton truck that in itself will weigh around 3 tons. Trying to pull 5X your vehicle weight with a tow vehicle just sounds extreme in itself.

Inb the future, rather than wasting our time trying to get an okay to do something that is over the limit (not just pushing it), don't bother coming to ask, just do it....it will save your time and ours.

Mark

[bsmith]

Greywnd, I appreciate the fact that you will be praying for me. And I appreciate all the comments I have received in this forum. Keep in mind though, that this forum has not been my only source of info in deciding to go with a triple dual trailer. Several trailer builders in Texas have put me in touch with guys that use a triple dual on one ton trucks. It's not like it has never been done. One guy has even pulled a 30K motograder successfully with circumstances like my own. One goal of coming to this forum was to see if some of those stories could be corroborated. The trailer builders, since they want to sell you a trailer, will often be very optimistic. The respondents in this forum have not been so positive to the concept. That has been good for me to see. As I have mentioned, I need an equipment trailer for many uses, mostly for normal sized loads. And I think even you will admit that triple duals are safer than tandem duals given the same load. So the question for me will be how much load will I be able to safely haul with a triple dual trailer and a one ton truck? I will experiment carefully in some big open spaces before I head down a public road. I will find the limit for my loads that I feel comfortable with. If the limit is too low for my needs, I'll look into a bigger tow vehicle. I will report back in the future with my findings. I believe there are many out there who have an interest in how this concept works. I am sorry if you feel like I have wasted your time in this thread, but I will continue to post as I see fit. I have learned form this thread and I believe that others have as well. Thanks to you all for your input.
Bill

[Steve Frazier]

The purpose of this forum is to exchange information and ideas regarding heavy equipment and relate topics. The question you posted here fits that description, and the comments here are valid in my opinion. I've done some towing with my F-350 beyond the rated capacity of the truck, but no where near what you are proposing. With a gross trailer load of about 18K, the truck is VERY twitchy and I've had the trailer push the truck when trying to manuever job sites. I wouldn't attempt a move in bad weather, it's just too risky. I hope everything works out for you, but I tend to agree with the negative comments here based on my experience.

[brock302]

Bill,


A buddy of mine has ben in the dozer buisness for several years now... and he has the same trailer set up ( or close to it) that your looking at...He pulls a CASE 850K (20,000lbs) with a 1999 Ford F-250 4x4....and he has never had any problems ...at least that he has talked about......he brought his dozer out to my job site to help me out and he seemed to have no trouble....

I am looking into getting in to the dozer buisness my self with either a CAT D4 or D5...they both weigh around 18-20k...and I am looking at the 30' gooseneck with the dauls and a Dodge 1ton dually with flatbed....

if you get something up and running let me know how it works out...

[Countryboy]

Welcome to HEF brock302! :drinkup

[bsmith]

Brock, I have had my 31+5' dove GN triple duals trailer since Feb 2007. Got it with three ramps, pierced frame low profile, and square coupler for $8750 from Texas Pride Trailers in Madisonville, TX (936-396-3241). Remember, I am pulling my trailer with a 96 one ton long bed chevy truck with singles (non-dualie). The triple axel is really needed to help with braking. And the braking is so good with 12 trailer tires working for you that the truck brakes themselves can go completely out and you can still stop just fine. Have loaded my dozer, but not yet my big 23,000 lb Condor man lift. I have been waiting to report back with pictures after I have a need to move that largest item. The trailer manufacturers were all telling me this setup would work fine for my infrequent heavy hauling needs using a non-dualie truck. But of course they want to sell a trailer. I consulted with this forum as a counter balance and a number of guys indicated such a setup would not be safe under any circumstances even for my very controlled infrequent use. So it was with some trepidation that I ordered this non-returnable trailer. Well, the results are in and I am very pleased with this trailer and how well the truck and trailer handle with large loads. Everybody who advised me earlier had no experience with such a setup (a triple dual GN is pretty rare) and so it was left to speculation based on their experiences with other trailer-tow vehicle combinations as to how this might work. I think a lesson learned here is that even professional daily heavy haulers should acknowledge some uncertainty in their opinion when they comment on a specific trailer/tow-vehicle/load combination that they have never tried themselves.
Bill

[thebobcatkid86]

So bsmith how do you like your Texas Pride trailer? I see that they do alot of business on ebay. Anyway I have been thinking about buying one of their dump trailers in the future and was wondering how they were as a company to work with?

[bsmith]

Bobcatkid, I really like the guys at Texas Pride. Jim Bray is the owner and I happen to also own a 7x14 bumper pull hydraulic dump trailer. The price on that beat everybody else by nearly $2,000 and it has worked great for me for several years. Just keep in mind though, that as a software company owner and part time rancher, I only use the dump trailer maybe once a month. So I can't vouch for how well the trailer would hold up on a daily basis, but I still think it was one of the best buys I ever made.
Bill