Deere's Quad dozer a must see!!!

[9420pullpan]

check this out what do ya think. i would be insteresting in some wet jobs.

2040

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2043

give feedback!

[Dozerboy]

I don't know cool idea, but I don't think it will make it here in the states.

[Squizzy246B]

I wonder how successful the patent will be when others already have articulated quad crawlers....I'm pretty sure Case has one as a TLB.
I wonder what the target market is....You would think it would be more vs the wheel loader than the dozer...just like CTL/MTL is to skid???

[Tigerotor77W]

Squizzy, I don't know if the Case design has made production yet. Either way, the Case design for the TLB with tracks is not articulating or a front-cab design. The Case QUADTRAK tractor is interesting; I'm guessing the Deere patent is different due in chief to its front-cab and also a dozer blade.

[srs_mn]

That's one of the few machines I've ever seen that I would be glad to step back and let somebody else run... I don't like sitting on the front half of machines like that...
I've spent a lot of years on Cat and John Deere articulated loaders - I even ran a Komatsu for awhile - and on all those loaders the operator sat on the rear half of the machine... Well, one time I had to use a highway department Case loader to load my truck with salt-sand mix, and, on that Case, the operator sat on the front half of the machine... it was unnerving to say the least - not only was it harder to get lined up with the truck in the first place, it was almost impossible to side-shift the bucket over a foot or two once you got up to the truck... I also kept jumping almost out of the seat every time I would catch a glimpse out of the corner of my eye of my own ass-end swinging around behind me - it looked like another machine was trying to get past me... I was glad to get off of that thing. Maybe a guy could get used to it, but I didn't like it. That articulated JD Dozer is probably the same way... it may have a good view of the blade, but I'll bet it's hard to do any grading with everything being articulated like that - everything moves and it probably does it when you don't want it to... I think those four track articulated machines are much better suited for pulling things than pushing them.
It looks expensive, too.
...just my opinion.
srs

[Klutz]

I think that was pretty cool.:yup While all new designs don't make it, many of todays concepts were once concidered too radical and spat at by that old guy with the cane (bless him!). I imagine the ride comfort would be better. And I always wondered why grader and trackloader operators had so good view, and dozer operators weren't allowed to see what they were doing until after they done it. They probably bribed someone, I always thought those graders behaved a bit suspicious like they were hiding something.:cool: :wink2
Grader operators will think they sit on the right part of the machine, I guess. The rear end looks kind of graderish to me.
It might not be for everyone but I'd be happy to test it for a day or two.

[RonG]

That's one of the few machines I've ever seen that I would be glad to step back and let somebody else run... I don't like sitting on the front half of machines like that...
I've spent a lot of years on Cat and John Deere articulated loaders - I even ran a Komatsu for awhile - and on all those loaders the operator sat on the rear half of the machine... Well, one time I had to use a highway department Case loader to load my truck with salt-sand mix, and, on that Case, the operator sat on the front half of the machine... it was unnerving to say the least - not only was it harder to get lined up with the truck in the first place, it was almost impossible to side-shift the bucket over a foot or two once you got up to the truck... I also kept jumping almost out of the seat every time I would catch a glimpse out of the corner of my eye of my own ass-end swinging around behind me - it looked like another machine was trying to get past me... I was glad to get off of that thing. Maybe a guy could get used to it, but I didn't like it. That articulated JD Dozer is probably the same way... it may have a good view of the blade, but I'll bet it's hard to do any grading with everything being articulated like that - everything moves and it probably does it when you don't want it to... I think those four track articulated machines are much better suited for pulling things than pushing them.
It looks expensive, too.
...just my opinion.
srs
Yup,everything he said.
One of the loaders that my employer had was a Case W20 and I ran it for several years,I never did get used to it.That thing would just scare you to death when your peripheral vision would catch the tail end of it wagging around back there,each time certain that you had hit something or someone.
It took an acre to move over the width of the bucket,stockpileing was a joke.Piling snow was so frustrating.I don't know whose idea that was but they never ran a real loader or it would have never got to market.
It wasn't a bad machine otherwise.We had a W14 too,SOS.Hough was another one,what were they thinking???Ron G

[digger242j]

It looks like it was designed by Dr. Suess...

[334 lawn co]

pretty darn cool looking. dont know what advantage it has over metal tracked other than maybe weight.

[Mike J]

Maybe its target market will be as a tractor to pull a pan and the blade on the front is just to help if you need to smooth out some ruff stuff first. I think it would work good for that application. I assume that with the tracks you could go through wetter dirt before getting stuck. Right now I don't think JD offers anything but traditional tractors with wheels to pull their pans. I think this thing would be a good addition to their product line.

[Squizzy246B]

Squizzy, I don't know if the Case design has made production yet.

Xing, Yep..although it was 2005 they showed the concept:

http://www.casece.com/features/feature.asp?RL=APE&id=558

and thats where they were talking about an articulated model. But anyway I was more interested in exactly what industry Deere might be aiming at.

[Deas Plant]

Hi, Folks.
Yep, I'm with summa thothers above who said they didn't want any of it.
'pears to me that JD are slow learners or unwilling to learn from others mistakes.

Hough articulated loaders and dozers came out with the operator sitting on the front and the back end turning. They're no longer around.

Kummagutsa bought their designs and the first Kummagutsa wheel loaders were the same. They've changed and they ARE still around.

Case did the same damn stoopidd thing and they've changed. They're still around.

Hanomag did it too and I haven't seen a new Hanomag in about 25 years.

The thing I liked most about the Kummagutsa GD825 grader that I ran was the fact that you sat on the rear and the front frame turned to articulate.

I won't be rushing out looking for wunna them noo-fangled JD's ter play with. They may be O.K. for pushing a few scrapers, spreading a bit of dirt fill and a bit of clean up work here and there. I would just purely love ter see them against a D7 or D8 in rock. Yeah, I know they weren't designed for that but the 7's and 8's will do all the other things too so why buy wunna the JD's unless 'kid's sandpit' stuff is all you have for it to do? And I don't reckon it would be all that flash in mud either.

And I can't remember ever meeting a contractor yet who didn't want a D4 to do the work of a D8 or D9 sometime.

You all have a wonderful day. Best wishes. Deas Plant.

[Tigerotor77W]

I'm with Mike J on this one... I just don't see that design as supplanting the D6-D8 size class (i.e., spark a revolution).

[MVFD]

just a feeling but with the rubber tracks they may use it alot for road work. since the rubber tracks wont mess up black top or concrete.

may also end up being used for farming.. It will have its place for sure.. altho I dont think it will take over a certain class of dozer. its just going to have a strong point at which a steel tracked dozer wouldnt... and is the blade an only attachment at this point? maybe it will be a loader....?

Im pretty sure its market will be farming.

[digger242j]

Im pretty sure its market will be farming.

I don't know--if they were aiming for the AG market, wouldn't they have painted it green? (I'm serious...)

[334 lawn co]

just a feeling but with the rubber tracks they may use it alot for road work. since the rubber tracks wont mess up black top or concrete.

may also end up being used for farming.. It will have its place for sure.. altho I dont think it will take over a certain class of dozer. its just going to have a strong point at which a steel tracked dozer wouldnt... and is the blade an only attachment at this point? maybe it will be a loader....?

Im pretty sure its market will be farming.

the road work aspect makes the most sense to me.

[MVFD]

you would also be susprized at the floatation that those type of tracks provide..

Check out Mattracks, they are ment for trucks, but its the same type of design. and the foot print is very light.

www.mattracks.com

[hvy 1ton]

It seems to use a lot of the parts from the Bell scraper tractors. Be nice if they would offer the same electronics that are in the Bells. With the excellent view out the back window it really looks designed to pull stuff. Without the weight of the engine on the blade it won't do well on hard stuff. Take the blade off and paint it green and you might have a good Ag tractor. Even though you're that far from the drawbar, the sightlines still look good. Might be a good platform to get front 3pt attachments popularized here in the US.

[biggixxerjim]

I dont see the advantage over a Dozer...... dozer will have a lot more track coverage and there for a lower gpsi.Maybe that if ur pushin and want to turn, you don't have to take away power from any track on the inside:beatsme

[KSSS]

I don't think its purpose is ag based. It does not appear to me that it is weighted correctly for that. I would guess it may be some type of attachment platform. Maybe dozer blade, Timber Ax type cutting attachment, or a vibratory roller. It looks similar to a machine made by Amman.

[Tigerotor77W]

Agreed on non-ag, KSSS.

farm_boy, suddenly you're quiet... ;)

[farm_boy]

farm_boy, suddenly you're quiet... ;)

I really don't have much more to offer here. :beatsme I have never seen it, let alone know much about it. There must be some pretty good snoops at HEF b/c any deduction that I could make from the pictures posted have already been made.

[Squizzy246B]

Being articulated and rubber tracked you would think it would have to be for operation on surfaces that steel tracks would damage????....if its not Ag related...............it could push snow pretty good:beatsme

[Tigerotor77W]

I really don't have much more to offer here. :beatsme I have never seen it, let alone know much about it. There must be some pretty good snoops at HEF b/c any deduction that I could make from the pictures posted have already been made.

Gotcha. Oh well.

Seeing as they've gotten as far as they have with it, it'll be interesting to see how it pans out. My guess is that it'll be a scraper puller that has a dozer blade as an attachment.

@ Squizzy: Indeed! Sure would be a beast.

[DPete]

For some applications maybe, can't see in in any kind of rock or tough dozer work. Hope the undercarriage is better than the Quad tracks otherwise it's a never ending fix. Nothing like power , weight and steel to get the work done. DP

[Hjolli]

It´s a bit bit hard to see the point in this design - flotation must be inferior to a tracked machine as conventional tracks make up for a much larger area.
And when the cab is so much up-front you can´t see the corners of the blade anymore. So what is it good for.....?

[Taylortractornu]

Ive got a little experience in sitting on the front half of an articulated blading machine in that compactor we built. even thought it has no tilt I had run a loader with a blade a few times and thought it would be the same the Feller buncher we used has an articulation point with and oscillation joint in it. I thought it would run like the loader I used a few years back wron you hit a hump or a small dip and it moves the blade corner in the grond then that make the next hum and it multiplies from there lol . I got to operate a Rayco dover a few months ago like the Sweco dozer but a hair bigger. Right behind the blade to me was hard to see my corners and it felt a lot different than operating a normal dozer because of the cab position. I talked to a Foreman I worked for when I was younger about the big quad tracks and he said scraper work they were good but a few land leveling contractors had them that pulled pans and planes that had blades mounted and said the tracks didnt last long wit hthe blades in use, said they pulled out the lugs and other problems.

[gordyo]

That's what they use to groom the snowmobile trails in the Northeast now. Have you seen the trails in the last two years due to the lack of snow?? Stumps, Rocks and Roots are no longer a problem. LOL:D

[komatsukid]

thats the first i have ever seen of a machine like that. i dont understand what the advantage of having four tracks would give you. i dont think it would give any more traction, i could be wrong. the machine is articulated, but a normal dozer will turn on a "dime." oh well its a interesting design none the less.

[Orchard Ex]

Bet it would be quieter than steel tracks squeakin' and clatterin' around. Maybe it's a stealth dozer for places with noise restrictions... :wink2 :cool:

[equipment fan]

This dozer is:scool !!!The rubber is more quiet than the steel and it can not damage the road because it`s made with rubber!It can take a small ride on a road to go to an other jobsite (if it have a high speed option).i will try to find more pic of this quad dozer.
Guillaume:cool2

[Deas Plant]

Hi, Folks.
Just a few more thoughts on this jigger.

I doubt that it would push as well as the existing front-engined quad-track agricultural machines that are currently fitted with dozers and maybe not even as well as some of the existing articulated front-engined 4wd agricultural tractors fitted with blades simply because of that rear engine.

For exactly the same reason, I doubt that it would pull scrapers as well as the existing front-engined quad-tracks or 4wd articulated tractors. I think it would work in wet areas where the 4wd machines wouldn't because of the extra flotation but it may have too much 'lead' in its backside and not enough weight up front to even be really good at that. Balance is important in machine design and capability and if the rear end goes down while you are trying to BACK out of a soft spot, you are in some sort of DEEP TROUBLE.

Front end loaders with rear engines get all the traction they need from the weight gained by the action of filling the bucket. They use the weight of the rear-mounted engine to counter the forces generated at the front of the machine by digging, filling and carrying the loaded bucket. This jigger doesn't have a loader bucket. (Funny I should notice that, huh?)

Rear-engined 4wd compactors with blades are not really intended as production dozing machines. They simply have the blade fitted to enable them to be more useful in their intended application by spreading the fill that they are there to compact. So, I'll leave them to get on with their job and go to 4wd articulated dozers.

Existing 4wd rear-engined articulated dozers like the Cat 814/824/834 and the Tiger/Cat range, 844/854, don't really develop their full tractive potential until/unless they are in an application where they can get some weight on that blade - as in push-loading scrapers. This doesn't mean that they can't push. ANYTHING 4wd that is as big as the Cat 854G 4wd dozer is a pretty respectable force. They simply have different intended applications from their full-tracked cousins and their mobility is a BIG part of those intended applications.

It is this last area that I see the JD quad-track may have an application. However, I don't see it ousting any of the existing rear-engined 4wd articulated dozers simply because of economics. Those quad-tracks are going to be a LOT more expensive to maintain than rubber tyres and a LOT less mobile - - - and MOBILITY is the name of the game with wheeled dozers.

I do think it will be interesting to see what develops and I look to the U.S.-based members of this forum to keep us 'foreigners' posted as I don't expect it will be made available DownUnder at the same time that it hits the market Topside.

I just won't be holding my breath waiting for it to make any really big inroads into the middle or the heavy end of the construction/civil engineering/earthmoving fields.

[Squizzy246B]

For exactly the same reason, I doubt that it would pull scrapers as well as the existing front-engined quad-tracks or 4wd articulated tractors.

That about nails it. I can see where this machine would be real "nice" to have around in finishing, pavement, hotmix applications when working against existing roads, buildings, carparks etc.....but its hard to see a real niche for this jalopy.

[equipment fan]

Hi Deas Plant,
I read your commentary and i agree with you:iagree.I dont know if this dozer is a:thumbsup good idea or a :badidea ???

equipment fan

[CM1995]

2 things come to my mind when I look at this tractor. One is the blade does not look like it should be used to do anything more than dressing topsoil. That is a big ol' blade with a rather week looking trunion. Second is the cost of rubber tracks.

This machine looks like a perfect government machine. Useless and expensive - nothing better to waste our tax dollars on.:Pointhead

[Squizzy246B]

This machine looks like a perfect government machine. Useless and expensive - nothing better to waste our tax dollars on.:Pointhead

:lmao :lmao :falldownlaugh :falldownlaugh

Its easy to get excited about flash new machinery....but hard to see how this one is gunna be more viable/profitable than conventional equipment, except in some real specialised areas....but I guess those smart fellas at Deere have something in mind...we will just have to wait and see I guess.

Perfect Government Machine I like that one...I gunna use that:D

[equipment fan]

Yes :falldownlaugh it`s true that machine is perfect for government for waste our tax dollars.It can put a more big blade on this machine.If they have a bigger blade,it can be a wheel dozer on track

[Deas Plant]

Hi, Folks.
I think this will be interesting. I have just posted an e-mail to JD Headquarters advising them of this thread and saying that I would be interested to hear any comments that they may have on the comments expressed here.

D'ya think I'll get a reply????????????????? Or will we hear from them on this thread???????????? Or will there just be a thunderous silence??????????????

Hi, CM1995.
I like that "Perfect Government Machine" too. May I borrow it, please.

Hello, Equipment Fan, and welcome to this little corner of the world. Did you have a bit of a re-think? I notice a fair difference in the tone of your first and second posts.

Hi, Squizzy246.
Personally, I can't even see it in the niche that you mention as, being tracked even though articulated, it will still chew up the ground/surface a little more than wheels on an articulated machine.

I would not rate this machine as being almost as useful as an udder on a chook. (Chickens can't suck.) I suspect that some people will FIND a use for it just to say that they have this unusual machine in their inventory and I wonder if they will notice any headshaking that may occur. However, I don't see it as being a major threat to any existing types of machines in any of the fields of work in which I have been involved in the past. Just my 0.02.

[CM1995]

Squzzy and Deas - please be sure and use that phrase as much as possible and remember this when you pay your taxes.:throwup

[equipment fan]

Hey Deas plant,it`s a good idea to send an email to deere headquarters.we can make some suggestions to improve this quad dozer to be a better product.And sorry for my fair difference on my two last messages.

:notworthy

[Squizzy246B]

Hi, Folks.
Hi, Squizzy246.
Personally, I can't even see it in the niche that you mention as, being tracked even though articulated, it will still chew up the ground/surface a little more than wheels on an articulated machine.

I would not rate this machine as being almost as useful as an udder on a chook. (Chickens can't suck.) I suspect that some people will FIND a use for it just to say that they have this unusual machine in their inventory and I wonder if they will notice any headshaking that may occur. However, I don't see it as being a major threat to any existing types of machines in any of the fields of work in which I have been involved in the past. Just my 0.02.

Deas, I mention "niche" without specifics because there surely must be something in mind for this machine......somewhere??:confused:

I reckon it could be featured on HEF in 50 years time when the old hands are reminiscing about weird and wonderful creations of days of yore:rolleyes:

I haven't written it off to chooks udders ........Yet!. And if its all the same to you its a good thing to see designers pushing the limits of the square occaisionally, cause if they didn't do that I'd still be sitting on a spring steel hammered out bum pan out the back of a massey harris, with my backside more in the air than in the bowl.:o

I hope you get a swift reply from Mr JD:rolleyes:

Cheers

[Deas Plant]

Hi, Squizzy.
I'm with you on designers pushing the limits. I like working in a quiet, air-conditioned cab with controls that don't require your whole body weight to be behind them just to get them to move, never mind actuate the function for which they are intended. I like having a radio in the cab, in a cab where I can actually hear it without having to strain my ears and my mind to understand it.

VIVE LA PROGRESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Wulf]

I mention "niche" without specifics because there surely must be something in mind for this machine......somewhere...

I think they must be testing the waters too because it doesn't look practical as a dozer but maybe the chassis and drive concept could have other uses like this Valmet Harvester

[Squizzy246B]

Thats what I was thinking Wulf.

However, I must point out that that quad track arrangement is essentially a Hi-drive....and we all know how useless those things are....talk about chickens udders:rolleyes: :cool:

[Tigerotor77W]

I have just posted an e-mail to JD Headquarters advising them of this thread and saying that I would be interested to hear any comments that they may have on the comments expressed here.

I vote for thunderous silence. The PR/marketing guys should be versed on not spilling new product content, and the chance of an engineer taking the time to reply to a thread... er... :rolleyes:

[Hjolli]

[QUOTE=Deas Plant;26283]Hi, Squizzy.
I'm with you on designers pushing the limits. I like working in a quiet, air-conditioned cab with controls that don't require your whole body weight to be behind them just to get them to move, never mind actuate the function for which they are intended. I like having a radio in the cab, in a cab where I can actually hear it without having to strain my ears and my mind to understand it.

Hi Deas Plant

Good to hear from somebody who really agrees on that point. Cabs must be human-rights on all machines working out in the elements. Not to mention the protection if gives from noise and pollution from the machine itself.

It´s ununderstandable how far behind America still is on that point although based on pictures of recent equipment from there it seems that they are beginning to see the light. In Europe (at least in my country) most machines have had cabs for 40-50 yrs.

How is it in Australia? Just curious.

Hjolli

[Squizzy246B]

[QUOTE=Deas Plant;26283]Hi, Squizzy.
I'm with you on designers pushing the limits. I like working in a quiet, air-conditioned cab with controls that don't require your whole body weight to be behind them just to get them to move, never mind actuate the function for which they are intended. I like having a radio in the cab, in a cab where I can actually hear it without having to strain my ears and my mind to understand it.

Hi Deas Plant

Good to hear from somebody who really agrees on that point. Cabs must be human-rights on all machines working out in the elements. Not to mention the protection if gives from noise and pollution from the machine itself.

It´s ununderstandable how far behind America still is on that point although based on pictures of recent equipment from there it seems that they are beginning to see the light. In Europe (at least in my country) most machines have had cabs for 40-50 yrs.

How is it in Australia? Just curious.

Hjolli

Kjolli

We kinda get the best of both worlds down here, in that we get pretty good availability of both European and American. That said it takes awhile for new stuff to flow down here and often a particular model or line doesn't make it; on account of us being a relatively small market (for some machinery) and it being such a massively long supply line. As far as the Western World goes I live in the worlds most remote city, so parts and service can be a problem.

In anything other than compact equipment it is very rare to see new equipment without all the creature comforts.

What we do suffer from though is northern hemisphereitis....an example of this is Bobcat Hi-flow machines that all overheated in our summer for a period there. Another is the block heater and electrical plug fitted in the Mitsupillar engine in my skid...we laugh at it. Sometimes European air conditioning needs some "adjustment" for Australian Climes. Most the big manufacturer's have this issue covered when they produce a model for Down Under...an exception to this would be JCB and Manitou but they seem to have some sort of a grip on it now.

Our tyranny down here is parts availability...its so comforting when you call the dealer and he says "I'll check see if they have got one in Singapore"... bewdy!...thats just what you want to hear (on the satellite phone) when your backfilling bull ant holes (old gold mine shafts) out the back of Mt Magnet (the middle of nowhere).

Anyway, now being a city slicker I can afford to indulge in all the lastest machinery delights the various regions of the world offer. Apart from the odd annual trip out to do some construction works on new mine sites I'm not usually more than 200 km from the city and most of the manufacturer's have a decent dealer.....same can't be said when you head bush down here. Out in the sticks there is only one colour yellow I'm afraid....but we wont be going into that here will we??:rolleyes: :cool:

[Deas Plant]

Hi, Hjolli.
Here in DownUnder, you can not get a machine into a major mine site, quarry or construction project now without a fully-enclosed, air-conditioned cab and full ROPS/FOPS protection. Many of the smaller contractors are also getting the message although there are still hold-outs among them. The hold-outs are mainly those running older machines. It's actually getting to be somewhere between difficult and almost impossible to buy a new major piece of equipment without a cab.

On some demolition sites and where dust is a hazard, there may be a requirement to have filtered pressurization fitted to keep contaminants out of the cab. The first machine I ever saw such a system fitted to was a Marion 191 diesel/electric face shovel on the Hammersley Rail Project in 1966. This machine had filtered pressurisation fitted to virtually the whole upper body as well as the cab, to keep dust out of the electrics.

The farming fraternity mostly got the message between 15 and 30 years ago. After all, would you drive your car down the road without the roof, doors and windows? (Unless you're a convertible nut.) Where do you spend more time and which makes you more money, your car or your tractor?

[equipment fan]

:thumbsup Great pictures Wulf:thumbsup

[biggixxerjim]

I got it!!!

Thats thing is perfect for finegrading base before paving. Excellent view of the blade, low impact tracks, and the articulation means that you will have less rows from the tracks when turning.

Throw some GPS on there and for the right work, it could make big $$

[equipment fan]

Ah!now is the answer!thanks biggixxerjim:notworthy :drinkup Where do you have find the information?:confused:

[Deas Plant]

Hi, Biggixxerjim.
Maybe but that THANG is still gonna scuff up and indent yer FINISHED???????? surface like rubber 'tahrs' will never do. And there's just no way that it will beat a grader anywhere near its size and with the same GPS for accuracy and quite possibly not for speed either.

To me, it's a Heinz 57 arrangement that hasn't been properly thought through when there are already machines out there which will do any job that it can do better, maybe quicker, probably easier and probably more economically than it can. Rube Goldberg and Heath Robinson come to mind when I look at that THANG.

Just my 0.02.

[surfer-joe]

Strange looking beast for sure. Deere does a lot of way out stuff though.

At the last big farm show I went to in Visalia, California, there was an outfit showing and selling these quadratrac suspensions and drives for nearly any application you can think of. They had a set up for a 4X4 pickup, a Humvee, medium-duty trucks, tractors, and I can't remember what else. The pickup was claimed to be capable of seventy miles per hour on the tracks. The cost was large, nearly 4 grand per drive position. One environment they targeted was the Artic and Antarctic.

The old Hough's weren't bad when you adjusted to the way they wagged their tails. I seem to remember a Hough engineer telling me a long time ago that their thought was that the operator would always be facing the bucket. That was supposed to be important somehow. Last job I had a couple of Hough 560's on, the operators actually preferred them over the Komatsu WA600's we had there. Anybody here besides me ever run a KW Dart 600, that's the one with the cab offset out to the left side of the machine? Nice powerful machine, but ya could never fit the damn thing into the shop, just wouldn't fit through the door.

At one of the road shows in Vegas sometime back, Deere had some generators on display they were developing for the Army. These were Wankel engined. The smallest was a 500 HP unit, a two-cylinder model. Next up was a three-cylinder unit at 750HP. They were said to be looking at 1000 and 1500 HP units. All were very compact and nicely engineered. Haven't seen any in the field though. Longevity was mentioned as a problem.

I don't see any real advantage to this quad dozer of theirs. They must have some idea for it or they wouldn't have built it though. There is a lot of moving parts on that thing, more maintenance I think. A Michigan 280 Dozer was about the same size, but I'd say the Deere probably has better traction capability, and that may be it's advantage, that and being able to run on pavement.

Neat pics

[Neil D]

Deas Plant,you are the only person here to cotton on to one small detail about this JD-I am surprized nobody has raised the cost of running rubber tracks. There was an article in one of the monthlies over here about a dutch guy running 450-500 horse Case steigers pulling scrapers, he was averaging 1000 hours before having to replace tracks now that does not sound very cost effective to me.

Neil

[Deas Plant]

Hi, Neil D.
I haven't had much experience with rubber tracks beyond seeing those who do have them replacing them far more often than people with steel-tracked machines replace their tracks, like between 3 and 5 sets to 1. I have also noticed that tyres seem to outlast rubber tracks by a factor of between 5 and 10. I do know the rubber tracks aren't cheap 'cos people keep telling me they aren't.

So, in my usual direct, politically incorrect way I just sorta arrived at the conclusion that there just might be a downside to having these expensive heavy rubber belts pulling your machine along the ground.

And, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I wanna see somebody put a ripper on the back of one of those jiggers and send it into a rock job. As Countryboy would say, "Yeeeeee Haaawwwww!!!!!!!!!"

[Countryboy]

As Countryboy would say, "Yeeeeee Haaawwwww!!!!!!!!!"

Well said.......:thumbsup

[Squizzy246B]

Hey Deas.....mate and sometime biz-partner of mine runs a Kubota 5 1/2 tonne excavator.....I post an odd pic hereabouts. Had to check the meter the other day cause I haven't looked at the hours for ages...over 5500 hours and about 25-30% of that rockbreaking...rubber tracks are good for at least another 2500 hours. Mate and I have been the two principal operators....we go over a lot of rock.....straight over....never turn unless its an absolute must...plan the attack..and attack the plan. Sometimes its the Nut behind the Butt that makes the difference. Also, rubber tracks, despite world rubber prices are becoming considerably cheaper than 4 or 5 years ago.

Still can't see a real use for that JD thingama whatsy though:rolleyes: ...and as stated, I think the rubber might only be a portion of the operating cost of that undercarriage arrangement.:beatsme

[CM1995]

Hey Squizzy-

The rubber track life is related to the application. I have a mini-ex and 2 MTL's and the wear rates are extremely different like you pointed out with the mini-hoe. The mini-hoe is 6 years old, 2000HRS with it's original tracks at 50%. The MTL's on the other hand are 3-4 years old, 1500+/- hours and 1 is on its 4th set of tracks and the other it's 3rd. Of course the operating conditions for the MTL's have not been ideal by any means, abrasive rock and asphalt, but we needed the tracks for slope work on these rough sites. These sights were in the $$$ part of the city and comanded top dollar for the location, so the ends justified the means. Since these jobs the MTL's have been operating in better sandy type material and the wear has decreased dramatically.

The crazy part is a set of tracks for a Bobcat T250 is more than the cost to re-shoe a 953C track loader.:Banghead It is definetely the "Nutt behind the Butt" that makes a huge difference on any undercarriage.

I agree with Deas on this - put a ripper on it and see how it does in rock.:rolleyes:

[mtb345]

to many moving parts for me and rubber is not cheap and easy to install i've seen the 580 with tracks again to much maintain nothing like changing a tire and be gone. you know how those sales person are they would sell ice water to an eskimo . on warm month say spring thru fall i like running the small dozer with no bells and whistles [a\c radio cab ] going to town:cool:

[Neil D]

All I know is that the dutch guy was running in sandy ground which I think would be kind to tracks ,the torque or rimpull(is this the correct defination?) is possibly what wears out quadtracs in my opinion. Get a bunch of donkeys on board with the radio switched on and the heater blasting away and 1000 hrs could be a pipedream!

We have a JCB 5052 5.5 ton midi digger with the rubber tracks replaced at 4300 hrs and cared for by mostly driving in low on the track motors. The dealer told us 2500 hrs is usually the norm for tracks.

Neil

[mtb345]

ithink sometime they build thing not knowing where they would fit kinda let it find its own

[Deas Plant]

Hi, Squizzy.
There is one VAST difference between your application with the mini excavator and putting that JD into a rock ripping operation. In your operation, you are only pulling the machine itself across the rock - minmal tractive effort required, as in the tracks are laid down, the machine rolls along them and they are picked up again.

That JD with a ripper in rock would be an entirely different ball game, applying power to the tracks to pull the rippr through the rock, less than ideal tractive conditions, sharp edges, lumps turning under the tracks etc., etc.. And that is not even thinking about what it all might be doing to the rest of the undercarriage which is of necessity somewhat more complex than an MTL undercarriage. Thanks but no thanks, I don't want the bills.

I do agree with you about different operators - the loose nut holding the controls - making a HUGE difference. Way back in the 'good old days' on the Mount Newman Rail Project (1968-69), another operator and I got 3,300 hours out of a set of pins and bushes on a Cat D8H dozer where normal life expectancy was around 2,500 hours tops. We would have got more than that except for the fact that we spent a week and a half working in 4-5 feet of water in a sandy river bed when the tracks had about 3,000 hours up. That ripped a few hours out of the pins and bushes. This was way before SALT track.

I haven't seen a lot of the Kubota excavators around here but, having said that, I also haven't heard ANY bad reports about them. Their small/mini tractors seem to be quite popular too.

[alco]

I'd be curious to see how something like this would stand up in our operations. We end up having to walk our dozers a lot and the sand grinds everything right off the machine in no time.

We completely destroy an undercarriage on our D7Rs in 1000 to 1500 hours.

I think most of you are trying to prove a point by figuring this machine would be used in a different application than it is designed for. Of course rubber tracks are going to be ripped to shreds in rock. Who in their right mind would put a rubber tracked machine into a rock ripping application.

I don't honestly believe it is designed to be a heavy production dozer. I think the idea is to have a machine that can do some light pushing, then easily travel over the road to the next job and do the same. I figure it is meant for high speed travel and light dozing to save lowbedding costs and the need to have a small dozer on site full time or several over a long or spread out job.

I've been on jobs that we needed several small dozers spread along them because the ground conditions were too soft to support a wheeled machine and the job was 35 km long. You either needed lots of small dozers, or a full time lowbed to move them back and forth to where they were needed. I think the idea that they may be meant to fill the spot as a scraper puller has some merit.

I agree on the cab forward comments, but Cat has something similar that I am amazed nobody has brought up yet......the DEUCE. Perhaps this is a design by Deere to compete for that market?

These are just a few ideas I have had rattling around in my head for a while. I am not trying to jump on other peoples ideas, just throw a few of my own out there.

Brian

[Tigerotor77W]

I agree, Brian, but the DEUCE never made it into mass production... and we certainly haven't seen a trend going back to that idea since then.

(I'm not saying it [the Deere] is a bad idea; just saying that the DEUCE never became a huge hit.)

[Deas Plant]

Hi, Alco.
You present some interesting thoughts on this jigger.

Yes, I know it is a question of who in their right mind would put such a machine into a rock ripping job. It is one more place where they WON'T work.

As pointed out in an earlier post, the traction abilities of that JD are in doubt due to weight distribution with the rear engine. That works best in a loader. And yes, I do know that there are a LOT of 4wd dozers out there with rear engines. All the scraper pullers that I have seen are front-engined and I guess there IS a reason for that, maybe the same one that has agricultural tractors with the engines at the front.

You mention the Cat Duece as being similar to this JD. About the only similarities are the rubber tracks and the rear engine. The Duece is not articulated and IS designed to fulfill military needs, not civilian requirements. It carries its blade as part of the main frame and the main frame is lowered or raised to lower or raise the blade. The Duece is also a lower profile than this jigger and needs that forward cab for blade visibility. Can you imagine backing the Duece up when working in tight around pegs? At least the JD has that covered a bit better.

[Countryboy]

I've never seen the "DUECE". :confused:

What does this "Jigger" look like.......See, you can speak Country and I can speak Aussie. :D

[Deas Plant]

Hi, Countryboy,
The Duece was an attempt by Cat to build a high-speed dozer for military use. It was capable of about 30 mph and was designed to keep up with tanks, clear roads and debris and any other tasks that came its way. I just checked Cat's site and there is no mention there now of the Duece.

Here are sites that have further information:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/deuce.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/1999/04/990400-klein.htm

https://jrac.erdc.usace.army.mil/documents/siteprep.pdf

The second and third sites have photos of the Deuce. Hope they help.

[Countryboy]

Thanks Deas.....I'm with the program now. :thumbsup

[Deas Plant]

Hi, Countryboy.
I edited that last post probably about the time youwere posting your thank you. There is now one more link there.

And you're most welcome.

[Dirt Dogg]

Hey guys just found your site and it's great! It's called a bison and I have ran it. It wieghs around 25,000# and its fully hydrostatic. the blade on it is off a 750j and it is a concept machine Deere has only produced a few and let their best customers use them for evaluation. This machine is very handy to use in smoothing up after scrapers, pulling compactors, spreading piles after trucks, etc. Just thought I would get in my two cents.:my2c

[equipment fan]

when you have try it,do you have take pictures?Does deere have made other concept:confused:

[Deas Plant]

Hi, Dirt Dogg.
Firstly, welcome to the forum. It's great to have input on this topic from someone who's actually run one.

Having said that, all you have really done so far is to confirm what I have thought about the jigger all along, that it is best suited to lighter work rather than the heavy end of the job. Which brings into question that name, 'Bison'. My understanding is that a bison is a pretty heavyweight critter. On that basis, I'd reckon this jigger is more of a mule deer or similar. LOL.

Do you have or are you able to get more photos of the jigger? I think many people here would appreciate them if you could post more.

Thanks again for your 2 cents.

[Dirt Dogg]

Hey Deas Plant, I have some picts somewhere, Pull Pans picts are as good as mine. Its very suited for light work has great visibality and is a dream to operate.

[equipment fan]

can you will post the pictures if you find it?PLEASE:D

[Hjolli]

Hi Dirt Dog

This machine looks lika very interesting experiment. I wonder, since you have ran it, how is visibility to the blade? While forward visibility must be very good, how well can you see the corners of the blade since the the cab is so much forward?
Do you think the rubber tracks could stand up to shot/crushed rock (which is is often the fill material in the area where I live).

Hjolli

[CatSkinner77V]

those rubber tracked machines are useless, I pulled a 463 cat scraper with a cat challenger for a few weeks one time. That thing was garbage, Might as well just have a motor scraper, need to be pushloaded by the push cat every time. Sure rubber tracks have there place on pavement and in the middle of a wheat field pulling a cultivator or something like that........ another question you have to ask yourself is how often are you dozing on pavement? not very often. And i do not like sitting on the front of machine like that, its has always been a pride of dozer operators to be good at what they do without really seeing what they are doin haha. Even a yawnfest grader operator could operate this thing.

And last but not least rubber and plastic under carriage do not stand up to rock very well. They get eatten up in a hurrry.

[Countryboy]

Welcome to HEF CatSkinner77V! :drinkup

[Dirt Dogg]

Hjolli, The visibility of this machine was near perfect it takes some getting use too because you are looking down on the blade instead of looking at the back. When the blade is angled a little hard to see the heel but not impossible.
Lots of people are really downing this machine, remember this machine is a concept and may never see the market. I'm sure there are flaws in the design and it is not suited for every job, but everyone should remember that every machine on the market started as a concept and the design has been changed many times and even been swept under the rug. :IMO

[mtb345]

i have a job to start in late june to strip 10 arce of cranberry bogs that already there half of the bogs are under water and the bogs sit on 6ft of peat to do the job i thinking 315 d5lpg end dump but this jd quad has me thinking different any advice ?

[Tigerotor77W]

You may be stuck doing it the original way, because this machine isn't out yet... you could call Deere and ask to be a pre-production operator, but I'm not sure how far that'll go... :)

[OzDozer]

Two words - Light-duty .. and EXPENSIVE to run .. due to the incredible cost and complexity of the quad track setup.
That, of course .. won't stop the military ordering 3000 of them .. only to find they are not capable of any heavy duty work .. and bonehead military operators will tear up the undercarriage every chance they get. And JD will be laughing all the way to the bank.
They would be better off marketing this thing as a universal farm machine, and fit it up with a removeable loader.

[VjjR]

its basically the farm tractor with a blade

[Dozer575]

Yeah a widow maker clearing machine.
What a huge waste of money to engineer something like that. If JD wanted to do themselves a favor they could have just started buiding 77V's. And instead of the millions spent tooling up and engineering that thing, just offered the K's at a very reduced price, they'd still make plenty because they wouldn't have dumped millions down a hole. So whats JD stock doing?
I think these manufactures should offer the old retirees something good to come back and show the young punks how to design a dozer. They spend way too much time on the computers and need to get out in the field and run a real dozer and not some video game dozer at their desk. So how would that dozer work on those steep slope in the one thread? So what were they thinking?????:beatsme

[Lashlander]

Another Stellar post by D8 Bob!:rolleyes:

[MKTEF]

Some of u will very soon have to change your meanings about rubber tracks.:professor

The track industry is going very fast theese days. Things not possible a couple of years ago is no problem today.:cool:

Army industry is pushing the development forward in huge laps.

We have had rubber tracks on our 113's for some years, and are going over to them on the whole fleet.
They run in all kinds of terrain and turning is done by twisting them sideways like on a excavator.
And speed is ni problem. We do 80km/h(55miles?) with no problem.

I just call some of our test modells for go-karts. M113-G3 with rubber tracks is awesome.
This industry will come up with tracks that work good in rock too.

Its not so many years ago we saw them on the mini's...now we see them not only on M113, but also on the fighting vehicles with weights around 23t/46'pounds.

And i bet the same goes for the construction industries rubber tracks.
Just :my2c

[farm_boy]

Yeah a widow maker clearing machine.
What a huge waste of money to engineer something like that. If JD wanted to do themselves a favor they could have just started buiding 77V's. And instead of the millions spent tooling up and engineering that thing, just offered the K's at a very reduced price, they'd still make plenty because they wouldn't have dumped millions down a hole. So whats JD stock doing?
I think these manufactures should offer the old retirees something good to come back and show the young punks how to design a dozer. They spend way too much time on the computers and need to get out in the field and run a real dozer and not some video game dozer at their desk. So how would that dozer work on those steep slope in the one thread? So what were they thinking?????:beatsme

To think that the entire Deere enerprise stock price flutcuates based on a single engeering project that one division is engaged in makes about as much sense today as pony motors to start our equipment. Believe it or not there are better ways to move dirt today than there was "back in the good 'ol days". Take a look at all of the top 100 earth moving contractors and I would put money on the fact that they are using some sort of laser and/or GPS enabled grade control. Something that would have been considered science fiction "back in the day." Truth is, with the rising costs of doing business (labor, insurance, diesel, tires, etc, etc) if someone isn't looking at a more efficient way of getting business done they won't be in it much longer. That is why all manufacturers are hiring these young whipper snappers that do know how to operate those fancy computer thingys. If these companies still were in the era of slide rules and manually drawn blueprints we wouldn't have half of the tools that are considered common place today that were not even thought of 20 years ago.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for nostalgia and have a tremdous amount of respect for the old iron, old iron hands and the way they did things in the past. I am also not against running old iron if that is all that is available or all that can be afforded. I have spent many many hours on equipment that is far from state of the art. I also realize at the time it wasn't the most efficient way of getting things done.

If you want to be in business tomorrow you can't be adopting technology from yesterday.

[farm_boy]

Another Stellar post by D8 Bob!:rolleyes:

Lashlander.....see....we DO agree on some things here!!:waving

[Lashlander]

Lashlander.....see....we DO agree on some things here!!:waving

We probably agree on way more than you know! I just don't agree with all the other equipment dealers bashing that you do. It seems to be Cat mostly. If you run a piece of equipment and don't like it thats find. Let us know. You bash Cat just because its Cat. Like the M series grader. You were bashing it long before it ever was released. I usally sit on the fence until I get a chance to operate something. How else can I form an opinion.
You like Deere, I like Deere, Hell my picture is in the John Deere Dubuque Works 1998 Year in Review. Dave Palmer put it there and sent me a couple copies. An extremely nice gentleman. I also don't believe just because its a Cat that its the answer to all. There is a reason we run mostly Cat equipment, however, wanna guess what kind of grader we have?

[Deas Plant]

Hi, D8Bob/Dozer575 or whatever other name you want to use.
I know that you have a right to express your opinion and I would defend that right as well. I also know that there are rules about flaming on this site and I understand the reasons for them. However, I believe that I also have a right to express my opinion and I intend to do so right now.

I think your post is utter rot because I seriously doubt that JD ever had clearing, especially heavy clearing, in mind as an application for that machine. You seem to be obsessed with clearing and yet you have proved in that past that there are things you don't know about it - like whether or not a track loader can push trees over. Remember? Having said that, I do think that JD would handle light timber and brush quite well if used with care.

Secondly, I doubt that machine was ever intended as a replacement machine for any model of D9, so let's not confuse the issue with that sort of rot either. I have spent a LOT of time on various D9's here and there and can see things that that JD machine would do that would leave a D9, any D9, gasping for breath. Those things just don't involve bulk rock or steep slopes.

Just in case you forgot your glasses as you looked at the photos or the videos or read the posts or whatever you did, if anything, to form your 'informed' opinion, that machine seems to do a not real bad job of spreading fill rather quickly and doesn't push a real bad blade of dirt either.

You ask how this new JD dozer would work on the steep slopes in another thread on this site. If you are talking about the Slope and sidehill issues thread:
http://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=6119 ,
I'd happily take that JD into that job from the photos posted so far. I think it would handle it very well so long as there was no heavy rock excavation and I think it would also be a good place to find out what the jigger might be good for.

Yes, some of us older hands, retirees or not, might have some worthwhile contributions to make to the design of various machines if anybody chose to listen to us. However, I doubt that your rantings would ever be considered a worthwhile contribution by anybody who knows much about machines and their uses. I have said in the past and I'll say it again, you have at times put up some quite good posts with some worthwhile information. Trouble is, there is a lot of 'mushroom food' between the good posts.

You might be able to baffle some of the newbies on here with your 'bull' but you're wasting your time trying 'cos there always gonna be an oldie or two around who'll pull the plug on you. AND, we still haven't seen any photos of the jobs that you supposedly have done.

Now this post may earn me a 'clip over the ear' for speaking my mind but i'll certainly never apologise to you for it.

[LDK]

D8 bob/575, welcome back, haven't seen anything from you in a while. Things are probably going to liven up around here again, you have enough ammunition:guns

[LDK]

We had some JD big dogs from product and support out here this week and they talked about the HSD. They said that they had one going out to a golf course construction site, I had not thought of it before but I imagine it might be pretty good for that type of work, with it's speed and articulation.
If it could be fitted with a scarifier and a pan could be hooked up to it without dropping the scarifier off it would be even better.
And just to ease the minds of some of the guys out there who are worried about it's performance in rock, they never mentioned that corner of the market, clearing never came up either:deadhorse

Have a good one,

[Bellboy]

all what I can say is: FONGKONG, bin liner

[D6c10K]

The consensus seems to be that this is a special application machine and probably not intended for heavy pushing. The idea that it could be useful for spreading and finish work when working around existing pavement makes some sense. On road widening projects it would allow you to jump from one side to the other or to run down the road some distance without trucking the machine.

Got me wondering....has anyone ever converted small steel track dozers to rubber track for that type of work? Tracks would probably be a high cost maintainance item, but didn't know if anyone had ever done it.

[JimInOz]

Even small Mitsubishi dozers with their Bridgestone rubber tracks are a costly proposition.They were made for snow & swamp work,but once used outside these areas,become track destroyers....at a cost above steel.I'd hate to be paying the costs of regular track replacement on this contraption.I wonder about the first time this machine is pushed a little out of it's comfort zone,as inevitibly happens with earthmoving gear.Unless it could be kept in it's proper working environment,it may be a money pit.The question is: will this machine operate & make $$$ more effectively than current machines that are more versatile.?? I also wonder how the track systems will look & handle after 2000 hours?

...Probably designed to be sold to local Gov't or military types at Expo days.
Maybe the money could have been spent on perfecting dozer/loader/grader systems.

[bordercollie]

I don't like sitting on the front half of machines like that...
I've spent a lot of years on Cat and John Deere articulated loaders - I even ran a Komatsu for awhile - and on all those loaders the operator sat on the rear half of the machine... Well, one time I had to use a highway department Case loader to load my truck with salt-sand mix, and, on that Case, the operator sat on the front half of the machine... it was unnerving to say the least - not only was it harder to get lined up with the truck in the first place, it was almost impossible to side-shift the bucket over a foot or two once you got up to the truck... I also kept jumping almost out of the seat every time I would catch a glimpse out of the corner of my eye of my own ass-end swinging around behind me - it looked like another machine was trying to get past me... I was glad to get off of that thing. Maybe a guy could get used to it, but I didn't like it.


I agree totally, operator sitting the front half of the machine belongs on log skidders only, not wheel loaders (ever run a hough 560???) a quick swinging nose is essential in the woods, the rest of the machine will slide past trees, all you got to do is get the nose through them. now all you skidder operators, don't tell me you never barked up a tree either, you know what i am talking about. Try driving a skidder through the woods where you sit in the back half, then get on one where you sit on the front half, you will know where i am coming from, same with loader operations, rear frame is better.

The big thing here is if we are all afraid of change, we would still be using wheelbarrows and a shovel, lol

[d6peg]

What is the big deal with working dirt fast. I was always taught that the only way you can work fast in dirt is with a shovel and wheelborrow. Get both and get after it, at least you wont make to big of a mess. My experience has always been the faster you doze, blade or load material the more mess you make. MY .02cents

[Deas Plant]

Hi, D6peg.
You may well be right. Yes, scrapers, rear dumps, belly dumpers, etc., are designed and built to move at a fair rate of knots, at least during the haul part of their cycle. Scrapers usually need to slow down to dozer pace to load but can spread somewhat faster. Rear dumps and belly dumpers usually come to a total stop to load, unless loading under a Holland Loader or similar and rear dumps usually stop to dump.

I hear some people talking about running graders at 10 or 15 mph for some dirt grading. With the graders that I have run in the past, it would want to be a VERY lightly loaded blade to get away with that - and maybe not even then in some conditions.

As for dozer work, if you've got the blade LOADED, you aren't likely to be moving very fast anyway. I have done some fairly quick clean-up work in the past with Cat 824 wheel dozers and wheel loaders but almost always working on an existing floor, as in cleaning up after a blast in a quarry or mine. I've also done some work with Cat compactors, 815's and 825's, spreading fill and levelling and compacting after scrapers. If you are travelling at 10 mph with one of them, topping a scraper load of material, and you have a hiccup or a sneeze, the resulting bumps can get pretty big surprisingly quickly.

The JD Quad dozer may have a bit of an advantage there with its quad tracks but I'm maintaining an open mind until I get to run one. I'm not holding my breath waiting for that chance. We don't see much JD equipment at all around where I work.

[d6peg]

Hey Deas,
I know in our parts with our soil type if you run a blade more than 7 or 8mph you sure get that washboard effect.

When I was younger I put the D7 47a in second and Dad sure did take some of my backside. Man first is slow in that old machine.

I understand with a loader at least when we had ours it was all about cycle times.

[nextdoor]

In the ag market JD are famous for bagging the opposition then bringing out a very similar product. They bagged Cat for a long time about a rubber tracked tractor and then bought out one strikingly similar. They completely rubbished the quad track design from Case and its positive drive system and now appear to have used something basically identical on this machine. I cant wait to tell a JD product man it is no good but he should know that already, because they have been telling everyone that for ages in the ag sector!

[KMB83]

i'll throw out a specialty market idea.....

worked around a large dairy in school, they chopped silage and packed it in bunkers. mounted (or deas terms "rube goldberged") a dozer blade to a 9400 ag tractor. something with tracks would have more push and pack for something like making silage bunkers.

how about guys in peat or composting applications? might be a decent snow pusher?

i'm going to talk out of the other side of my mouth and say i would think that would be a little too niche to engineer a completely seperate unit for...

[Greg]

Don't put those rubber tracks in the rock. I have seen the same set up on the large CASEIH ag tractors.

[EZ TRBO]

i'll throw out a specialty market idea.....

worked around a large dairy in school, they chopped silage and packed it in bunkers. mounted (or deas terms "rube goldberged") a dozer blade to a 9400 ag tractor. something with tracks would have more push and pack for something like making silage bunkers.

how about guys in peat or composting applications? might be a decent snow pusher?

i'm going to talk out of the other side of my mouth and say i would think that would be a little too niche to engineer a completely seperate unit for...

I have also thought bout your idea for the silage side but one large dairy we have done a ton of work for claims that they dont' have the PSI that a rubber tire machine does. That makes sense as most track machines will spread the weight out over a larger area where as the rubber tires ground contact is of a smaller area.

Trbo

[95zIV]

I have also thought bout your idea for the silage side but one large dairy we have done a ton of work for claims that they dont' have the PSI that a rubber tire machine does. That makes sense as most track machines will spread the weight out over a larger area where as the rubber tires ground contact is of a smaller area.

Trbo

You're right, tracked machines don't apply nearly the pressure that wheeled machines do. If anyone doubts that, put a leech field in then run a 310 TLB over on section, and say a 550 sized dozer over another section and see which section is crushed.

[Turbo21835]

You're right, tracked machines don't apply nearly the pressure that wheeled machines do. If anyone doubts that, put a leech field in then run a 310 TLB over on section, and say a 550 sized dozer over another section and see which section is crushed.

Hmmm, I remember a member here talking about food plots. He said using a wide track dozer would be bad for the food plots because it weighed more than the tractor. :rolleyes:

I will say this. You can make pretty good compaction with a tracked machine if you spread material in thin lifts. Ive done some fills with clay in small sq foot areas. Small being relatively speaking. I needed better access to a topsoil pile. I pushed all the topsoil and mud out of the way. Then started pushing clay into place in about 4-6 inch lifts. Then tracked it in the with D6 I was pushing with. You should have seen the dirt cop flip out. He told me there was no way I could make density that the parking lot required. Had him test, I hit the numbers on the dot. Would I want to use a dozer to compact all my fills. Hell no.

I still think this dozer is more of a pan puller. To me it doesnt have a wide enough real world application. Cant use in rock, cant clear with it. Im willing to bet is better balanced than a Case quad track with that heavy blade hanging off the front. I wouldnt have a problem send a few to a job to strip topsoil, and maybe run my cut to fills. But with all those dozer blades on site, its going to be like having too many cooks in the kitchen, they are going to ruin the soup

[North Texan]

Interesting looking machine that's obviously intended to specialize in something. I just have no clue what that is.

To be honest, my first thought was it might be useful with a Fecon-type clearing head attached to the front of it, assuming it has a hydraulic pump capable of handling that level of flow.

I don't see an ag market for it. Most ag tractors do their best on about a 55/45 front/back weight split. Vary from that too far, and a lot of them will start crow hopping. It has decent rear visibility, but on an ag tractor, it is very helpful to be able to see the hitch.

It might push silage around ok, but the tracks wouldn't be very helpful for trying to pack it down and get all the air out.

[iron kid]

Needs a three point so it can pull a small pan too. I live in dubuque were they are testing them, i seen this thing work its fast. Great for road work.

[EZ TRBO]

Hmmm, I remember a member here talking about food plots. He said using a wide track dozer would be bad for the food plots because it weighed more than the tractor. :rolleyes:

I will say this. You can make pretty good compaction with a tracked machine if you spread material in thin lifts. Ive done some fills with clay in small sq foot areas. Small being relatively speaking. I needed better access to a topsoil pile. I pushed all the topsoil and mud out of the way. Then started pushing clay into place in about 4-6 inch lifts. Then tracked it in the with D6 I was pushing with. You should have seen the dirt cop flip out. He told me there was no way I could make density that the parking lot required. Had him test, I hit the numbers on the dot. Would I want to use a dozer to compact all my fills. Hell no.

I still think this dozer is more of a pan puller. To me it doesnt have a wide enough real world application. Cant use in rock, cant clear with it. Im willing to bet is better balanced than a Case quad track with that heavy blade hanging off the front. I wouldnt have a problem send a few to a job to strip topsoil, and maybe run my cut to fills. But with all those dozer blades on site, its going to be like having too many cooks in the kitchen, they are going to ruin the soup


Turbo, I was thinking about your comment on using a dozer to compact small amounts of fill dirt in small lifts. With our 15's we have done just that many times as well with clay. Working in a small location on the side of a previously built manure lagoon we hauled clay fill in with dump trucks and my uncle did the entire site with just the dozer and we achived a very good compaction rate. There is a difference between clay and silage, silage doesnt really PACK in like clay does. Pack in an area of clay then try to dig it by hand, very hard to do so. Take an area of packed silage and do the same and you can remove it easier, just the difference in materials you are working with.

Trbo

[KMB83]

turbo21835,

in the food plot arena that wasn't me thinking tracks compact more than tires... i know better than that!

i was thinking a silage application because when they got done its in the 2-1 slope range on a bunker and tires just dont do as well on slopes. your probably right in the long run on a pull pan, why would they engineer a vehicle just for silage bunkers & other off beat duties.

ezturbo has it right that stuff has a lot different charateristic than a clay as far as packing

[hvy 1ton]

Heres a video of a farm in CA using a d6 and JD 9000 series to push and pack silage. Take note that the JD is wheeled.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=CiDJCASvelQ&feature=channel
It can be done i've read many arugments on the web about the subject. I've come to believe that tracked ag tractors don't have enough weight to pack but, dozers have the weight to pack and can push harder.

I still think that the HSD was designed as a bridge between a dozer and grader for finish grading.

[KMB83]

cracked open my deere stock holders annual report (while sitting in my fine mahogany trimmed study.....or maybe just over my dinner table with crumbs on it from last nights dinner) to find to a picture of something i recognized, the very topic of this thread.

quote: "Primed to set the standard for speed and productivity, the John Deere 764 HSD is the industry's first articulated, tracked, high speed dozer. New for 2009, it can handle finish grading at twice the speed of other machines and not damage surfaced areas while in transit"

in a year or two we will know how many of the random ideas put forth earlier by me and others this thing can do. but the manufacture has spoken.

[OzDozer]

I'm with JimInOz. These things will be a money pit. Just got word from a mate about how a Case Quadtrac undercarriage rebuild, will set you back a cool AU$100K (about US$65K). Compare that to a D9L undercarriage rebuild at AU$70K - and hightracks are regarded as having expensive undercarriage repairs. Speed costs with any tracked machines, and if ya wanna race around at high speed, be prepared to pay for it.
Anyone ever seen any figures on tank undercarriage costs, and lifespan?? They look great, racing around at 40MPH, but it's lucky we got the military to pay for them, 'cos no-one else could afford them.
Even in WW2, tank track costs and (short) life were a nightmare, and the authorities stopped driving tanks from state to state, here in Australia, during WW2 .. and trucked and railed them instead .. due to the tanks requiring major track rebuilds, often just after 1000 miles of driving at road speeds .. :(
Modern rubber undercarriage designs have better life .. but no-one ever mentions anything about rebuild costs .. :(

[Greg]

:Banghead If it is so great why didn't Tucker Snowcats start building them for this application 30 years ago. That is how long this setup has been around. Face it. Rubber tracks are not meant to do heavy dozer work.:ban

[KMB83]

dang,

i was proud of myself for finding the answer!

the good news is i own a couple shares to get info on their ag lineup, not for their proficiency in designing good construction equipment.

i'll go on record for never saying it was a good idea. betcha deere is thinking its a good one though...

[Greg]

Has deere ever said they did not have a good idea?

[JDOFMEMI]

What a lot of folks are missing is that in certain parts of our country conventional dozer undercarriage wears out in 500 to 1000 hours due to the gritty soil. I even remember a post by SurferJoe about a job where D-8's were only getting 300 hrs on a seet of tracks. I am fortunate to not live there, and my newest D-8 has nearly 5000 hrs and still over 50% remaining.

In those high wear applications, I would have to think that running rubber would outlast steel by a long ways. I guess only time will tell, and right now with work as slow as it has been in anyones memory, it may well be a while yet before the Deere gets a chance to create some sort of a track record.

[Greg]

300 hours? What were they running in? Diamond Dust? Silicon Carbide Dust? they had to be doing something wrong. I get about 3,500 hours on Berco on a D3 here and am still going strong after much more on a D7 and D8 in a wide variety of soil types here with the exception of not much sand. Oh ya, I can give you several examples of deere's track record on a few wonderful ideas too.

[Engineer4255]

all I can say is that I hope that they did more research than Case/IH did with their quads. We averaged 50hrs between breakdowns on the first set of 3. Got it up to 250hrs between roller and idler failures, and approx 500-600hrs for track replacements. After 4 years of dealing with this, and a couple of threatening letters, finally changed over to rubber tire machines.

[Greg]

Lets face it. Case IH is flowered up farm equipment. The ag division and industrial divisions may as well be on different planets the way they communicate, not that Case industrial impresses me much except for the skid steers. And just how much did the track replacements every 500 hours cost?

[alco]

Face it. Rubber tracks are not meant to do heavy dozer work.:ban

When did anyone ever say it was intended for heavy dozer work?

Brian

[Greg]

Maybe not. But I guarantee you that it will happen cause people don't know any better, or that is the only machine that is there or the hired help don't and can't think. Around here if it pushes dirt it has steel tracks on it.

[Northart]

Hello OzDozer,

Right on, with your post ! Can't fault you for anything . LOL try as I might , :drinkup :)

[JDOFMEMI]

Well, I suspect that those who use them as they were intended will like them, and those who try to make it a replacement for a dozer in rough conditions will pay the price, and then sit back and cry about how poor of a machine it is, and how expensive to run it is.

[Greg]

:beatsme
you got it right smack on the nose. Use the right tool for the job. Lots of people can't get that through their head.:Banghead They are always trying something different, trying to get by cheap. Sooner or later the "Ol' Pipper" is going to come out of the wood work with his hand out and say "PAY ME" and there they will stand looking stupid.

Putting stuff like that on the market does not say much for the companies engineering and product development people who in many cases are driven by the "bean counters," and marketing people who can only look at a unit with a lower selling price with no thoughts of down time and operating cost down the road. What the h---, we got the unit sold is priority one, purchase price being the main thing with a lot of people. I know one fellow who ran "Brand A" skid steers for years and loved them. Than along came the sales guy for Brand B." He bought one because as he put it the "Brand B" sales guy acted like he wanted the business much more than the "Brand A" guy. So he bought "Brand B." He has hated "Brand B" since the day he got it.

Oh ya, this thing from Deere is not exactly new either. Look around, they have been out there for a while.:bash:ban

[farm_boy]

new video on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inMELANvEBQ) showing what this thing is made of...:eek:

[Digger1000]

I don't believe the intention here is to replace a dozer or a grader, but to offer a versatile, different machine to the market. Can anybody give Deere credit for once for trying something different to offer the industry some options? If you look at any manufacturer they all have their faults.

[Richardjw~]

I don't believe the intention here is to replace a dozer or a grader, but to offer a versatile, different machine to the market. Can anybody give Deere credit for once for trying something different to offer the industry some options? If you look at any manufacturer they all have their faults.

EXACTLY!!! :drinkup:drinkup Well said!.........whatever colour or heritage the fact of the matter is that, in the instance of the Quad-trac, they DO sell - period.

[I AM IRONMAN]

Well, everyone was wondering what this would be good for.:beatsme

Here's a good video showing some of the things that it would be usefull doing.


I think highway work or large parking lot jobs could be done well with the unit, especially with GPS.

Grading slopes would be good to with the low center of gravity. Should be fun to run!:D

I got this link off of the Deere web site at www.deere.com

http://www.deere.com/en_US/cfd/construction/deere_const/high_speed_dozer/764_hsd_video.html

[Savage]

After watching the videos I could see a use. And I would love to use it on the job I'm on right know. Filling in tank dike areas then caping them off with rock at grade.

[Richardjw~]

Well, I suspect that those who use them as they were intended will like them, and those who try to make it a replacement for a dozer in rough conditions will pay the price, and then sit back and cry about how poor of a machine it is, and how expensive to run it is.

Yep, you're bang on Jerry :notworthy :drinkup some people just cannot get the concept of using this type of machine for what it is intended :Pointhead then they bleat on about the running costs and how they compare to a Cat etc. etc. when the application is entirely different......so what it cost a lot to repair.....but what has the guy earnt ££££££ from the xxxxhrs of service? maybe there wasn't another equally suitable machine?...R&D has to start somewhere, admittedly now probably isn't a good time, but this is how ALL companies evolve new machines.....I'm sure that within a few years they'll have re-worked/improved the running gear on the Deere but they will only learn about this with units in the field clocking hours and listening to the customers

[I AM IRONMAN]

After watching the video above, I started thinking of some other uses for this machine.

For you old pro's out there, what % of slope do you think it would hold on? :beatsme

If it's anything like a skid loader with tracks, I'll bet it would do super slope work!

The PAT dozer could prove very interesting once a guy catches on to using this machine.

Granted, a lot of this work could be done just as fast with a Motor Grader, or faster. If it was set up with TopCon or Trimble GPS, it would be very good at parking lots, etc.

I'm not to sure about pulling attachments, maybe some of the lighter ones.
Or about riding in front of the articulation.

I'd also like to know where it is built, hopefully the good old USA! :usa

[Greg]

If riding in front of the articulation on this machine is the same as on the IH and Dresser loaders forget it. Those machines are terrible.

I wonder where the center of gravity is on this thing. It looks like it could be higher than on a dozer.

I can't see how this would be an alternate for a grader where there is the long long frame with the blade in the middle and all of the wheels can move up and down independent of each other.

Soft ground? wounder what would happen here?

Rubber tracks in rock? Not a chance.

[Cretebaby]

I'd also like to know where it is built, hopefully the good old USA! :usa

Dubuque, IA :usa

(picture of the factories water tower lol)

[I AM IRONMAN]

If riding in front of the articulation on this machine is the same as on the IH and Dresser loaders forget it. Those machines are terrible.

I wonder where the center of gravity is on this thing. It looks like it could be higher than on a dozer.

I can't see how this would be an alternate for a grader where there is the long long frame with the blade in the middle and all of the wheels can move up and down independent of each other.

Soft ground? wounder what would happen here?

Rubber tracks in rock? Not a chance.

Greg, I would have to agree to not liking riding in the front of this machine! I have run Dresser Loaders and didn't like it at all. I do think you could get used to it with time though. Looks like all engine in the back. Being able to see what your pushing would be good too.

I've watched the big Case Quads pulling disc's in hills, sand, and sage brush and was impressed how stable they are and how good they pull compared to wheeled tractors. In soft wet ground, I don't think they would do very well, but probably better than wheeled tractors.

A good use for this would be golf courses with the PAT blade and GPS. It would leave a very nice finish and would be very quick.....the key to production and profitablilty.

It seems like a whole new concept in dirt work and seeing the Deere Water Tank where it is built is very good to know!

[farm_boy]

It looks like there is a lot more information on the 764 on Deere's website now

Check out the 360 degree walk around (http://www.deere.com/en_US/cfd/construction/deere_const/high_speed_dozer/hsd_flash.html)

[Digger1000]

They are officially available for sale as of Friday, that's why you finally see additional information. First machine was sold to Massie Construction in Virginia.

[TimHay]

any idea what this would cost
i snow plow about 150 wells i think this would be great for that

[Greg]

Tim,

What kind of wells do you plow?

I think that this may be a pretty expensive way to do it.

[TimHay]

Greg
I snow plow oil and gas wells
Right now i use a 140G grader with a wing and a John Deere 8760 4 wheel drive with a 6 way blade. we put on about 3000 miles a year one if we use just one machine.
I don't use the tractor in the summer the bade isn't heavy enough. This machine i could use year round. maybe even as a clean up dozer/grader behind my scrapers

[Digger1000]

Price is just over 300K

[BigIron25]

its definately interesting. no grousers. rubber tracks. deere really took a leap of faith on this one.

[Greg]

More like a big leap, not much faith, just blind leap.

[alco]

More like a big leap, not much faith, just blind leap.

I don't know why you think it was a blind leap. They said they put together a group of contractors and asked them to come up with a machine they would like to see, and the group came up with this. I certainly wouldn't call that a blind leap.

[heavylift]

I just watch the Deere promo video on the Deere site.... It was basically playing in nice loose dirt....

I would like to see it cut ginnies or bluetops...

[TimHay]

I think this will be a pretty good machine. especially if it can pe utilized year round
I would be worried about the travel speed being a bite slow

[scfinc]

i've never seen anything like it. would like to see in person.

[mestizo]

http://machinecontrolonline.com/content/view/6143/180/

Video from a TOPCON rep. If what hes saying is true, sounds like this thing can haul with GPS

[Greg]

Hey guys!! Let's face it. The Jury is Still Out on this one. I don't see that this will ever be an all purpose dozer where you can take it out and throw anything and everything at it and expect it to survive. AND we all know that there are people that will do just that.

[alco]

The point is.....and some people just don't seem to get it.....this machine was never designed or intended to be an all purpose dozer. Of course there will be people trying to do things with it, you can say the same with any machine.

Let's face it, if you take a one ton pick up, put a little utility dump box on it and then try to haul 50 tons of shot rock per trip with it, is it going to handle it and survive? Of course not. Now, does that make the truck a piece of junk? Only if it's a Ford.....but seriously, no, it doesn't.

[Greg]

You are exactly right except for the Ford part, at least up until the quit the 7.3 liter Powerstrokes.

Around here since this is not a big operation I don't have the luxury, desire or need to buy every speciality machine that comes down the pike. Instead I look for good value in a Cat machine that can serve multiple purposes, or as the "jargin of today" a machine that can "multi-task." GOD, I hate that term!!!!!

[alco]

Yeah, the Ford part was just in fun....although we have found they seem to fall apart at work. Not to mention the back problems attributed to their oh so nice ride.

Seriously though, this machine is not going to be for everybody, it definitely is a specialty machine, but that's how it was designed. It won't fit the bill for everyone, but for some, it will be a great addition. I can think of many situations where we could have used it. Of course, I can also think of many situations that it would not be feasible to use it in at all. It depends on what kind of work you are doing.

[cummins05]

I think it would work great for plowing snow around wells

just dont know about the purchase price a used case quad track and blade might work good to

[TimHay]

I all ready use a deere with a 14' 6 way, it is great.
I hoped the tracster i could use year round.


Just think i could NOT bring myself to own/run a case, other then a skiddteer

[cummins05]

Im sure they would be great for laying road base. they look top heavy to me ? I dunno just my 2 cents

[alco]

Just think i could NOT bring myself to own/run a case, other then a skiddteer

I like you already!

[cummins05]

now now boys lol we have all green at the parents farm but red makes people money too

[TimHay]

now now boys lol we have all green at the parents farm but red makes people money too

But it cost them in the resale value

[TimHay]

I like you already!

great minds DO think alike (my wife says anyway)

[tonka]

Just think i could NOT bring myself to own/run a case, other then a backhoe there i fixed it for ya....LOL i couldnt run any case equipment also, well a 580M i could...:D

[catman650]

wonder if mr melrose met with this much bad mouthin back when he made the frist skid steer loader , bet he did , bet he still laughs about it now in his grave , i no expert but ive worked on equipment all my life ,aint none of it cheap anit none of it great either , allway like the look on people faces when i price cat parts to , looks like they just got kicked in the nads , dont bragg to much boys they all break , and i dought deere will go under with this little machine either , wait and see best idea , :drinkup