Scraper controls

[Copenhagen]

Hey guys! I have been a hoe operator and blademan for about 4 years. I think my fine grading days are almost behind me. I want to start moving dirt. A lot of it! I found a larger company that only does site preps and want to go to work for them. I have ran just about every peice of equipment out there (might not be the best, but I know the controls) The only equipment I have not ran is a scraper. These guys use CAT push/pull scrapers. What are the controls? I have not even sat in one. I might run over to their site tomorrow and have a look around at some of their machinery. Anyway, all you scraper hands out there, please clue me in. Thanks.

[9420pullpan]

alright well i can tell you this push pullin takes a good partner and some practice. as far as the controls the transmission is a powershift put it in the gear you want and go. on the older pans they had 3 levers, one to operate the bowl, one to operate the ejector and another to operate the apron. then beside the seat to the right was the lever to operate the bull nose used for push pulling there is also a back saving device called a cushion hitch you use this when traveling and dumping but you must set it down when loading. and also for the twin engine pans such as 627,637,657 there are two accelerators, which can be tricky to get used to. another word of advice when turning more than id say 45 degrees back off that rear engine b/c it will keep pushin u. and never jam the rear engine when turning a 90 degree angle you will flip you tractor. usually i cut in 2nd gear you want to stay in the gear some most pans have a trankission gear lock. your best bet is to get in a single engine pan first let the dozer push ya through the cut and give it your best shot. then move on to the twin engines and push pullin good luck

[Dozerboy]

It’s easy the, hardest part is staying in pattern on short fills and making stock piles. Keep your can low I never lift one more than 9" off the ground most of the time. Always fill the edges first especially on stock piles. If being loaded by a dozer with a blade don't use the rear motor, because the dozer unloads the rear tires. If you ever get into trouble just go WOT speed saves lives. Personally I can't stand scrapers and would never run anything but Pushpulls. That is what I learned on and the only way to go. One more thing scraper operators are just glorified truck drivers, and no matter how good you are your still a stupid scarper hand and will be blamed for everything.

[farmerted44]

3 RULES OF SCRAPER OPERATION
1.Never cut in your fill , never fill in your cut.
2.When in trouble hog on front engine.
3. Payday is on Friday.

[Gary M. Martin]

We have 2 new 57's with the sigle stick setup they sure take a little while to get used to but they are nice to run. On the new ones to raise or lower your bowl you push the stick forward or backward. To open your apron you move the rocker switch on the stick left or right and to to run your ejector forward or backwards you move the stick left or right. Your trans hold is the left button on the stick and your easy ride is the left button.

[BrianHay]

Don't think the transmission retarder has been mentioned yet. Not all scrapers have them, its an expensive option but realy save the brakes. Lots of Cat scrapers have them. Its a lever on the steering colum and works great. The trick to using it is pull it before you are ready to start slowing down and stay on the throttle. It takes a few seconds for it to kik in. When it kiks in you can feel it and if your timing is off it won't hurt it to stay on the throttle for a short time. Keep an eye on your tranny temp when using it though because it will climb. If it starts getting to warm (normaly only will when using it on a long downhill stretch) you only have to back it off a little bit and it will drop again almost instantly and then you call pull it full on again.

[surfer-joe]

If you happen to get your butt set onto a double-barrel, learn how to operate the throttles with both feet. One for the front engine, one for the rear. That's how I run em and it's easy once you get used to it. You get better and quicker thottle response time and your leg doesn't get tired moving back and forth to cover one pedal or both.

You don't use the brakes much anyway, or you shouldn't, and you can always shift that foot over if you have to. But it's more comfortable with both feet on the throttles. You have a thirty ton brake under your right hand and it's usually better to use it than wear out the air brakes. Cheaper too. If you got a retarder, use it!

Newer scrapers are better now for noise, but I always used the rear engine for general moving around untill I needed the front for power. Hey, it was quieter than having that 12V71 Detroit moaning in your ear. Not to mention all the heat coming in from the fan and engine.

Make sure you set the seat controls for your weight and leg length. If the seat doesn't work or can not be adjusted, don't run the machine. It will screw up your back in one big hurry unless it's right. Make the company fix it or replace it. Saves you and them a lot of money in the long run. A minimum back injury runs about a quarter million bucks on workman's comp, and it's painful as hell!

Even with the cushion hitch on, you will take a pounding all day. Run with a hairy handed grip on the wheel and bowl lever and always be prepared for that critter to launch you into the cab ceiling. One of the very few reasons I liked no-cab machines. Watch your knees around the bottom of the dash and the steering column. You can really bruise up your knees whacking them against these items. They are not forgiving at all. WEAR YOUR SEATBELT at all times, not real tight, but comfortable.

Be extremely careful getting into and out of the cab. Use a two-fisted grip on the hand-holds and set your feet carefully. If some fool has welded a chain on in place of a broken step or ladder, report it to the boss as a safety violation and mark it as such on your pre-shift ticket. Chain steps are about the most dangerous substitute for a step there is and they will ruin your day when they break out under your weight. Do not attempt to carry anything in your hands while mounting or dismounting. You need both hands to hold on. Place your junk on the cab floor from the ground, then get in. Same for getting off.

Make sure you clean your windscreens and all other glass before every shift. Visibility is paramount. Be exceptionally careful when climbing around the fenders and hoods. They can be very slippery with grease or oil, and even dust will cause your feet to go out from under you. Falling off a scraper is no fun and will make you see lots of stars, none of them from Hollywood.

Remember that you can't see crap on the right side of a scraper. Keep the nose and fenders out of the bank and rock outcroppings. They bend and bust easily and don't look good at all, besides being real expensive to repair.

Do a careful walk-around inspection at the beginning of the shift and at lunch BEFORE moving the machine. Some guys like to lay up in the shade of a scraper at lunch and don't get the word that lunch is over till you run over their dumb butt. Also closely check your tires for cuts and bruises or bulges. Particularly the one right under the cab. If they blow out, you could get hurt. They can also throw you around if something happens at speed. If nothing else, you may not hear well for a while. Carry fresh underwear in your pickup for days like this. You will need them. Do not run on unsafe tires!

Do not under any circumstances get under a raised bail! They come down fast and will bash your pointy head down into your stomach. Stay away from them! Same for a raised apron, they are worse than a terrorist and a whole lot meaner if you get caught under one coming down.

Don't be the dum-dum scraper hand that get's in front of the pushcat with the ejector all the way forward. If the pushcat doesn't hit you, check your ejector location first, apron second. Give the finger to the laughing pushcat hand.

Just as soon as you dump your load, set the ejector to the return detent and place the apron all the way down, not float. Check the ejector position before getting into the cut and raise the apron to the proper height. Keep your bowl low on the haul road, remember, that's your best emergency brake if you need it in a hurry. Keeping your apron closed on the haul road keeps the moldboard from picking up dirt and rocks and launching them onto the cab of your bosses new pickup as you sail past him.

In the cut, take a smooth bite. Don't pump the bowl if you don't have to. Keep an eye on the material in front of the apron, don't let it build up and start rolling rocks forward into the tires. A scraper tire will pick up a right-sized rock and wedge it in between the hydraulic tank and the frame on some older machines like 651B's. The tank and it's support will break, dumping a big bunch of oil on the ground, stopping you dead in your tracks, and really pissing off the boss and the head wrench.

Do not boil the dirt over the sides trying to get every last cubic foot of it you can. This wastes times and holds up the pushcat and other scrapers. Take a good cut and get the show on the road.

Watch the other scraper hands and see if they are getting picked up in the cut on the fly by the pushcat, or if they are stopping completely before the cat comes up. Ask if you need to.

Don't turn in front of the pushcat too soon, particularly if he is using a semi U dozer or a full U-blade. You might get the dozer corner-bit into a rear tire and that ruins your bosses day, and yours. Gotta be careful around the cats and blades, they are slower than you and have stuff sticking out that you just don't want to hit.

Push-pulling is tough duty and fast. Got to have some nerve to be the back guy and get hooked up. If you are the front guy, don't take a big bite of dirt or hook a rock before getting hitched up. Hard on the neck you see, when your partner rams you from behind. Take longer and smooth cuts, it's easier on both machines. Try to dig in right at the point the guy in front hauls up.

Stay close to the other machine on the haulroad, saves time getting hooked up when you get back to the cut.

If you are working on a slope sideways, DO NOT turn uphill! It will get real exciting if you do this sometimes. Better not to do it all. Turn down hill if you have to, but be prepared for the nose to dig into the dirt as the machines cams over. Another good reason to keep the can low. Remember you have fresh underwear in your pickup.

Avoid being loaded over the top by an excavator. It's way slow, and the chances of damage to the bowl hoist cylinders and ejector ram are very high. Sometimes you gotta, but it's not very productive.

When in doubt, drop the can!

On older scrapers with the Corps of Engineers type air brake release setup. Jackhammer your brakes a few times when parking to get the system air pressure down to about 90 pounds or so. When releasing, build up to full 120 pound cutout pressure before moving the lever over. What happens is that the lower parking pressure sets the balls in the brake cans at a lower level. Then when you use full system pressure to release them, they unseat a lot easier and you don't have to sit there like a dummy for a while trying to get your brakes released, while everyone else is headed for the cut or waiting for you to get out of the way.

I like single-engine scrapers better in the bigger sizes myself. Ya don't have to run as hard. But the 627-637 size double-barrels are fun working by themselves without push-pulling.

Make sure you fill out a pre-shift at the beginning of every shift. That is your ticket and proof that there is a problem with the machine if you get hurt or something bad happens to the mechanical monster. I can't remember how many times a pre-shift has saved some hands butt when the you know what hit the fan.

Good Luck!

[surfer-joe]

Brian,

Keep the engine RPM up when using the retarder. This flushes the hot coolant and oil a lot faster and helps extend the life of the retarder and transmission seals. They work best around 1600 to 2100 RPM.

[BrianHay]

I agree with all you say Joe excepet running with 2 feet and pushing yourself with your back engine. Running with 1 or 2 feet is different for everyone. The first few years I ran them I used 2 feet but then I changed to one. The peddels are really close together . I have my heal on the bottom of the peddels and cover them both in the center using them both equally unless I'm turning to sharp (full throttle almost always and use the tranny hold to select my top speed). Then I just move the top of my foot a couple inches to drop the back engine when I don't want it. Anyone I have worked for sofar will rip you a new one if you push yourself around with just the back engine. As well they don't have enough power to push much on their own. I prefer a twin in any condition. I avoid using a push cat as much as I can. Pushpulling can be bad though if you don't have a good partner though. With a good partner it can be fun and the day goes fast.

For the retarder that's a big 10-4 on the rpm. that's why I said keep on the thottle until it kiks in. But once it kiks in there is now way to force a downshift in a Cat machine so you have to let the rpm drop enough so it will shift. And if you hit the throttle to get the rpm up then it of course won't downshift and you are fighting the retarder. It will heat at any rpm when pulled full on to long, especialy at high rpm. If you release it even a 1/4 of the way though it drops back down in a coulpe seconds without having to completely disingage it. Then it will hit full force real fast again when you pull back full on again.

When the retarder off though does cool faster at high rpm.

[surfer-joe]

I probably didn't explain myself too well on using the back engine Brian. I use them when parking, pulling into a shop, anywhere that I just need a little power to move a bit. Not in the cut by itself or on the haul road or in the fill, again by itself. Using a rear engine in the cut also requires a bit of finesse, which is why I was taught to use both feet on the throttles. Too much of the time you see an operator using one foot on both throttles and the rear wheel will be spinning like crazy. Quite often the front wheels are too, but that's a different chapter. By using one foot on each throttle, you can feather the rear or the front to better suit the available traction. Ya gotta remember too, that I learned to operate on machines with no differential locks. But I guess some guys get along all right using one foot. Oh, using the back engine going into a shop lets you hear your spotter better too, all the noise is at the rear.

When we used to start 651B's and E's in real cold weather, always a bit of a problem, we used to get the goofy things running a bit, just enough to build a little air, than crank them up and pull in the retarder. That would help heat up the tranny oil and engine coolant quickly, and the air gauge would come up so fast you would wonder if it was going to stop. The old D346's would build about 60 PSI just on turbo boost alone. For some reason, a very cold compressor wouldn't build air very fast.

A lot of mechanics never knew that at the bottom of the 641/651B retarder case, there is a drain line that goes back to the transmission. It has a screen in it right at the flange. If that screen gets plugged, no oil leaves the retarder. The retarder gets hot, holds everything back and the trans acts like it's busted. I watched some guys change out three good transmissions on one machine before someone asked them if they had cleaned out the retarder screen? Duh...........

[BrianHay]

.....ok... Well Front wheels will break loose long before the back unless you are carving the top lift off after it rains. Reason being is the front wheels get far more power to them from the front motor then the back because the front puts out way more power. If the conditions are slick from rain then the back has more traction because its on dry ground after the mud has been peeled off/loaded up so it won't break loose as easy because it can catch traction. For that reason that is one time when running with two feet helps. Back engine full out, front just enough that the front wheels are not spinning. Under any conditions if your wheels are spinning you are digging to deep. All the power in the world will do you no good if you are not putting it to the ground (that holds true with any machine)

In really cold weather when you have a hard time starting it. Pull the shaft that connects the engine to the tranny, it only takes a few minutes. It will start way easier only turninng over the engine and not the tranny at the same time. Warm up the engine, shut it off and re connect the tranny. Then fire it back up to warm up the tranny. Using the retarder to warm up the engine works great to get heat going in the cab, I do that to. But be careful because pulling the retarder on works the engine, and you don't want to work it before it is warm enough that it is safe to do so, fine line. There is a connection beside it to suck the oil out while the machine is running.


That filter is mounted on the tranny no? swap the tranny, you swap the filter. Haven't been on a 51 but all others it is 5 bolts on top of the rear of the tranny to change it. As well that's were s.o.s samples are taken from.

[surfer-joe]

Yes, transmission filter, on Cat anyway, is usually mounted to top side of trans. Cat trans also has a magnet and screen mounted on the rear end of trans. These should also be removed and inspected and cleaned every PM. The retarder screen is, as I said, located on the bottom of the retarder housing and it's a bear to reach. Usually a couple of times a year cleaning is sufficient, and certainly at the time of every trans switch-out.

Cat offered a "dog clutch" on some early 641/651 scrapers as an option for cold weather starting. It didn't work very well so was discontinued.

Removing drive shaft is another option, which works sometimes. The real reason the thing won't run is that the transmission oil pump has to overcome a high pressure safety valve inside the valve stack. It's hard to believe that such a small valve can keep a big D346 engine from getting up to speed, but it does. So even warming up the engine will not allow that valve to open any better or any sooner, tho a warmer engine does help a bit.

The factory, around 1973, studied the problem a little further. It was a well known problem for sure. The solution they came up with was simple, but fairly effective, and we refined it further in Wyoming and Colorado.

The trick was, as soon as you got in the cab after checking oil and coolant levels, was to reach down and push the transmission speed selector lever into reverse. You had to really slap it on some of the older machines with some worn linkage. Next you hit the glow plug switch and held it down a minimum of two minutes while watching the ammeter. If the ammeter didn't show much draw, you knew you had a problem with some glow plugs that would have to be fixed sooner or later. Next you jammed the thottle all the way down to the floor, and hollered at your helper to start blowing ether into both air filters. Usually it helped to open the lids and take the outer filters out first. That way the ether only had to pass by the safety filter. Next you hit the starter side of the switch and listened for the grunt of the starter engaging, also the hiss and snap that indicated a battery post being melted off.

If you were holding your lips right and the ether didn't run out, the engine would usually start. You then snapped the switch back over to the glow plug side and kept your foot to the floor on the throttle as the engine gained RPM. About the time most people wanted to let off the throttle is when that damned pump would take up suction and throw oil against the safety valve. If you had let off the throttle, the engine would stall, and you would have to wait maybe 15 minutes for the oil to drain away in the trans so you could start all over again. Not pleasant at 20 or more below. However, if you kept your foot in it, and the reverse maneuver worked, the pump threw oil against the reverse safety valve, which had a far weaker spring and pressure limit than the main safety valve. That would usually allow the engine to continue to gain speed and finally get both safety valves open.

You could relax the throttle a bit after the engine showed signs of continuing to run and the trans started to rumble, but when you decided to pull the shifter back into neutral, you better have the engine back up to full RPM before doing so or it would stall again. This was where using the retarder to help heat the trans oil was helpful before pulling the trans back into neutral.

The drive shaft removal trick was a sort of last resort for us, similar to building fires under the transmission and engine or using a rosebud torch head to warm things up. I've seen many a 651 with the paint all burned off the trans from this. The shaft didn't have to come all the way out, just a few inches, those damned shafts are heavy.

The D346 in either 60 or 90 degree configurations would barely run without the turbocharger being mounted and working. That was one reason for getting the engine up to high RPM, you had to get that turbo spinning. Generally, once you got the trans working, your problems were over for the day with that one.

I'm sure we didn't do the engine any favors by the way we started them in real cold weather, but when you have twenty scrapers and twenty-five of more other machines to start for a 6AM shift, you do what you have to do. We used pallets of ether every week, and I can remember days when we only had half the scrapers running by noon despite starting at 4 in the morning.

I'm sure modern machines start a lot easier, our northern brothers running and maintaining them in Canada can probably vouch for that. It would be interesting to read what problems are encountered today with Cat scrapers in the far north or Alaska.

[surfer-joe]

Re-read your post Brian. Rule of thumb is to never take oil samples from the filter housing. Chances are you will get high readings doing this. Use a vampire gun and tubing and go in the dipstick tube instead.

Best way is to mount a sample fitting into the oil gallery by the filter and use a oil sample adapter to fill the bottle. Much cleaner and easier to use and it dosn't cost that much to purchase and install.

By the way, has the snow melted off your part of the world yet? It's been over 105 here for the last month or so.

[LDK]

It’s easy the, hardest part is staying in pattern on short fills and making stock piles. Keep your can low I never lift one more than 9" off the ground most of the time. Always fill the edges first especially on stock piles. If being loaded by a dozer with a blade don't use the rear motor, because the dozer unloads the rear tires. If you ever get into trouble just go WOT speed saves lives. Personally I can't stand scrapers and would never run anything but Pushpulls. That is what I learned on and the only way to go. One more thing scraper operators are just glorified truck drivers, and no matter how good you are your still a stupid scarper hand and will be blamed for everything.

Hi, speaking as a dozer hand I have good time for scraper operatos and I would much rather work with a scraper crew than trucks, so long as at least 2 out of 6 of the operators were good hands. If the ratio of good operators is higher all the better.
A scraper in good hands is a great asset in the cut or fill area. Not to mention the fact that the scraper operator is usualy much fun to have around on site and in the pub.

[BrianHay]

ether with glow plugs? I've always heard that was a realy bad idea? can easily wreck it. Removing the shaft works for me everytime. But I don't like doing it for the same reason as you. One of the big reasons they are so hard to start in the cold is the oil gets really thick. At -30 to -40 its hard to even get it out of a jug. Usually warm it up in the truck. So you can imagine how thick it is inside the engine and tranny and how much harder it makes them to turn over. The front tranny on a 37 holds a full barrel.

I think the D series in the cat scrapers were the last to have glow plugs. We usualy have generators that we plug them into at night up here. Its a bad start to the day when you show up in the morn and the genset hase quite over nite. Ifs its really cold and we can't plug em in we will offten leave the front engine running at high idle. The back isn't near as hard to start so we shut it off. When I worked up in the Arctic around Inuvik and Tuktoyuktuk nothing was ever shut off.

[BrianHay]

Yup snow has been gone for while now. 95 here today. Way to hot for me.

When I mentioned sucking the oil out while its running I was refering to that fitting. Got my post a little jumbled up though. Was my bday yesterday and I was still purty buzzed this mornin lol forgot to sleep.

[BrianHay]

Right on LDK

[Dozerboy]

ether with glow plugs? I've always heard that was a realy bad idea? can easily wreck it.
You're right the glow plugs will ignite the ether as soon as it hits them possibly causing pre-detonation.

[surfer-joe]

I had to laugh, any detonation at all was a sure sign we might, just might get a 651 fired off! It wasn't guaranteed, but it was a positive note.

You had to learn how to use ether on glow-plug engines. There was a trick to it, which generally was to make sure the engine was turning over well before spraying it in. If the batteries ran down or the posts burned off, or the starter blew or burned up, you were screwed. A big diesel engine turning over at speed sucks ether, fuel, flame, and all into the combustion chamber. Those big ole things really suck! The flame was required to get some combustion going.

Glow-plugs alone, at nearly any temperature below 25 degrees, would usually not allow any but a very tip-top engine to start. I've used tons and tons of ether, and never blew an engine. That's not the same as damaging one that might have problems later on. But even there, had very little trouble compared to other problems with these engines.

Ether is great stuff. It starts engines, cleans off oil and grease, thaws frozen door locks, latches, and padlocks. Used a lot of it for cleaning parts, till carb and brake cleaner came along. (yeah, I used a lot of Gas and Diesel cleaning parts too) Ether's great for starting a quick fire in sub-zero temperatures in smudge pots or oil heaters. I used to use it to start the little Briggs & Stratton generators and the air compressors on my service trucks when I worked for the Cat houses and the International shops. If you are out of hand cleaner, rags, soap and water, ether is great for cleaning your hands.

You can spray ether on a frozen padlock, and strike a spark to it with a torch igniter, or use the ether can as a mini-torch and thaw it that way. Also works to kill wasps and hornets, and it will drive mosquitoes away, for a while……..

I like to keep some ether around the house, there is always a time when you need just a little bit for something.

[RonG]

I agree 100% with your observations on ether.You ain't never seen clean until you clean something with ether the first time.I have used it as a torch too.I have never used it to set the bead on a tire while mounting it on a rim but they say they use it for that too.I would try it if I needed to but about the time that radial tires took over the trucking market and split rims were being phased out my job requirements took me away from the duties of working in the shop on rainy days so I have not really had to change tires much in the last several years.I never want to be without a can of ether nearby,it is security to me.Ron G:D

[digger242j]

I once used it to eradicate mice that had built a nest in the battery box of my hilift. Put a big shot of ether in there, closed the lid, and waited for them to fall asleep...

[Dozerboy]

Oh ya I use ether to do all kinds of stuff other then start engines...unless its a rental.

[alan627b]

A lot of good and real accurate information in this post!
I personally found as an apprentice ether was good for setting John Deere tractors on fire......that and don't trust an electrical system to be truly dead, despite where you have the disconnect switch set...you don't wanna know how I learned that! The hair grew back....
We have a trick for cold weather starting. Before you turn the master on or crank the engine, pull the shifter all the way back into 8th. For whatever reason, the pumps don't engage and you only have to stir the tar in the crankcase. Once the engine has warmed up, you shift it back into neutral and stir the rest of the tar! Or. shut it off in 8th gear accomplishes the same thing.
You guys seem to have the rest handled so far...
alan627b

[Jeff D.]

I learned a trick with ether from the shop that works on my truck.

If you get grease on your boot, then onto the truck carpet, spray ether all over it, and dab it off. It works near as well as those aerosol carpet cleaners that do the same thing.

Just don't smoke for awhile around it, if you do.

[Steve Frazier]

Back in my trucking days I needed a road call for a flat. The mechanic changed the tire and got a can of ether from his truck. He shot the ether in the bead in 3 revolutions, made a trail away from the tire, hooked up the air hose and lit his trail. I watch the trail take off to the tire and WHUMP! the tire flashed and the bead set. I was really impressed with it!!

[Dozerboy]

Hey Alan,
Thats a good tip I've never heard of that one before. But I got out of the cold weather soon after getting into dirt work, and plan to keep it that way.

[surfer-joe]

Alan, that works in mildly cold weather. But what Cat says, or said anyway, is that the reverse safety valve requires even less pressure than the forward speed relief. That's why it's better to use reverse gear.

[surfer-joe]

Ether does work for setting the bead on just about any size tire. But having seen it nearly decapitate a tire guy once in Maryland, I was never brave enough to do it myself. I quit using that fella too.

His replacement's bead setter of choice, was gasoline. A couple of wipes around the bead seat with a tire lubricant brush dipped in a can of gas, light er off, whoof! Bead seated.

I kept him. He at least backed off a few feet before doing this, as opposed to the other guy leaning up next to the tire when striking a match.

[BrianHay]

first time I seen that trick done scared the chit right outa me. Walked into a garage to see a friend. Noticed one of the mechanics sprayin something at a tire but never paid much attention. Standing there bsn and all of a sudden KABOOM...almost jumped outa my skin :lol:

[alan627b]

I'll have to try that tip out, if I am unfortunate enough to have to work in the depths of winter this year. It does get cold in Nebraska! We did a landfill cell one winter, it was -15 actual at night, and the night foreman got the bright idea to shut off the scrapers at 3 A.M. By the time the day shift started up at 7, most of them had gelled up. It took well into the next day to get them all going again!
And to think, we don't have heated cabs either, you get real good at finding plywood and cardboard....
Surfer joe, still hoping to hear what it's like to run the 3 axles (650, 666, etc....) hard enough just to find one these days!
alan627b