Oil Sampling - any success stories?

[Wulf]

I was curious as to whether anyone has any experience of oil sampling (whoever the lab may be) actually providing prior warning or evidence of abnormal system condition... excluding failure related to glycol or fuel dilution in an engine.

[Dozerboy]

We sample everything and it does save us down time.

[CGSI]

I was curious as to whether anyone has any experience of oil sampling (whoever the lab may be) actually providing prior warning or evidence of abnormal system condition... excluding failure related to glycol or fuel dilution in an engine.


Oil sampling is just like any other tool. if you use it properly and trend the results you cam maximize the equipment use and extend major component lifetime by a great deal. If all you want to use it for is to extend the change interval of fluids then it is a value but you miss the real benefits IMO

[Squizzy246B]

Oil sampling is just like any other tool. if you use it properly and trend the results you cam maximize the equipment use and extend major component lifetime by a great deal. IMO

Dead right. Before starting my own business I was conducting machinery failure analysis, mainly on diesel engines. The amount of times that I saw a worrying trend in the oil sample results that nobody picked up (prior to failure) was amazing. 1 sample doesn't really tell you a lot. You need a series of tests (history) over a period so you can look at trends and even then you need some knowledge to make sense of the results. Different makes of engine have different characteristics. An oil sample taken today is not going to tell you about the coolant contamination of tomorrow. A useful tool but not the be all and end all.

Probably the best and most conclusive thing an oil sample will tell you is fuel dilution, should it be occuring. This can save you from a crankcase explosion which is not a pretty thing to happen.

[CGSI]

Dead right. Before starting my own business I was conducting machinery failure analysis, mainly on diesel engines. The amount of times that I saw a worrying trend in the oil sample results that nobody picked up (prior to failure) was amazing. 1 sample doesn't really tell you a lot. You need a series of tests (history) over a period so you can look at trends and even then you need some knowledge to make sense of the results. Different makes of engine have different characteristics. An oil sample taken today is not going to tell you about the coolant contamination of tomorrow. A useful tool but not the be all and end all.

Probably the best and most conclusive thing an oil sample will tell you is fuel dilution, should it be occuring. This can save you from a crankcase explosion which is not a pretty thing to happen.


Sqizzy
Back when I ran 18 wheelers my trended oil analysis showed the babbit wear in the bearings progessivley and when we tore it down at 650,000 for a liner o ring leaking my mechanic looked at the graph and told me he would bet before he tore it down that those bearings were still at least 25%. He was wrong... still at 35%. pretty good evaluation from the outside looking in. by the way, the last 2 oil samples is what told him we had a small coolant contamination issue that was too small to show in mechanical ways. but by fixing the o rings in that cylinder the motor was still running strong when i sold it with 943,000 on the clock. since we had it down we did roll in a new set of bearings anyway.

[9420pullpan]

i know that we do it and i know that it has saved them money in the past.

[Jeff D.]

Shortly after I'd bought my Mack(around 30k miles)the engine devoloped a slight knocking sound.The dealer decided to do an oil sample to see what would show up.That showed nothing.They said to keep running it.After another month I decided to do another sample,as it was driving me nuts.It still showed nothing abnormal.I wasn't pleased with that,and after some prodding the dealer brought it in,and said they pulled it down and couldn't find anything,so again I kept running it.But the noise kept getting worse until I'd had enough.They pulled it down again(or maybe the first REAL time)and found 2or3 cam lobes worn down,with their corresponding rollers seized.

I don't know why it didn't show up in the samples,but here they are after the noise had started.

I'd always felt oil samples were a good predicter,but now I more skeptical.

[Jeff D.]

Here's the second samples findings made clearer/bigger.

[Jeff D.]

What I was suprised by was the amount of Calcium,under the additive metals section.Apparently this is added to the oil??But why?

[Wulf]

What I was suprised by was the amount of Calcium,under the additive metals section.Apparently this is added to the oil??But why?

I think Calcium is an additive to resist corrosion by neutralising acids formed during combustion. Additives deplete over the weeks of use which is one of the reasons we change our oils.

[Orchard Ex]

What companies do you use and where do you buy your sampling kits? What is the cost of each kit/analysis.
FWIW - I've used a company called AOA in the past for airplane engines - looking to compare costs...

[CGSI]

What companies do you use and where do you buy your sampling kits? What is the cost of each kit/analysis.
FWIW - I've used a company called AOA in the past for airplane engines - looking to compare costs...


Here is the one I use and trust http://www.blackstone-labs.com

[Jeff D.]

The co. I use(when I do them) is called "Monitor".It's a division of Fleetguard(I think they also make filters?)

They're at www.fleetguard.com

I have them done at the business that does my servicing.They do sell them to people to do on their own too.I think it runs about $20,and comes with two small plastic containers.One for the oil,the other just in case the first leaks.Then you just send it in the mail to them.

You can get your results online in a few days or/and they send them too you.

[03warrior]

New guy here joined yesterday. Man I wish my company would do the same for there equipment. Is it expensive for a company to have there oil analyzed. I would think that it would be well worth the money to do.

[surfer-joe]

I can't tell how many hours you have on each sample, but a sample with few hours on it doesn't tell much. A longer trend of samples at 250 hours would do better. It's unfortunate you did not perform a base sample when you first purchased your rig. That would have given you a starting point to compare with. Another base sample everyone should have in their files is a base sample on the new oil you have just purchased. It serves the same purpose as an initial sample on new or used equipment.

That said, the iron in the 2nd sample is high enough to have made me suspicious and the silicon level is right on the edge where I would have had the boys start looking for induction leaks of other sources of silicon contamination. With a tapping noise, and the higher than normal iron reading, I would have opened the engine up. The cam lobes and rollers in that Mack evidently were not chrome plated as the chrome levels shown do not indicate a bit of it, not even from ring wear.

As others have noted, trends from a long period of samples really tell most of the story, but each individual sample also tells its own tale and once in a while you will see a sudden fuel dilution or glycol level, or a high reading elsewhere that indicates it needs immediate attention. That's where oil samples pay their way, indicating the sudden and potential catastrophic failures that are so expensive in terms of downtime, lost production, and repair or replacement cost.

Oil samples cost somewhere between 7 to 20 dollars each, depending if you buy sample packs in bulk or individually. I can not recommend them enough. However, even if a analysis from the sample lab comes with an "OK." You still need to sit back and reflect on how your equipment is used, where it's being used at, and who is operating it. There are so many things to consider beyond just the sample itself, and the more you know about all these things, the better decision you can make on a need to take action or let it slide.

[roddyo]

I can't tell how many hours you have on each sample, but a sample with few hours on it doesn't tell much. A longer trend of samples at 250 hours would do better. It's unfortunate you did not perform a base sample when you first purchased your rig. That would have given you a starting point to compare with. Another base sample everyone should have in their files is a base sample on the new oil you have just purchased. It serves the same purpose as an initial sample on new or used equipment.

That said, the iron in the 2nd sample is high enough to have made me suspicious and the silicon level is right on the edge where I would have had the boys start looking for induction leaks of other sources of silicon contamination. With a tapping noise, and the higher than normal iron reading, I would have opened the engine up. The cam lobes and rollers in that Mack evidently were not chrome plated as the chrome levels shown do not indicate a bit of it, not even from ring wear.

As others have noted, trends from a long period of samples really tell most of the story, but each individual sample also tells its own tale and once in a while you will see a sudden fuel dilution or glycol level, or a high reading elsewhere that indicates it needs immediate attention. That's where oil samples pay their way, indicating the sudden and potential catastrophic failures that are so expensive in terms of downtime, lost production, and repair or replacement cost.

Oil samples cost somewhere between 7 to 20 dollars each, depending if you buy sample packs in bulk or individually. I can not recommend them enough. However, even if a analysis from the sample lab comes with an "OK." You still need to sit back and reflect on how your equipment is used, where it's being used at, and who is operating it. There are so many things to consider beyond just the sample itself, and the more you know about all these things, the better decision you can make on a need to take action or let it slide.

Do you have a link for the $7.00 oil samples?
Thanks, Rod

[CM1995]

Older thread but good topic. My local Cat dealer does our samples for $12.00 each. If the machine is under warranty it is free.

[AtlasRob]

NOTE ! I am in UK. The last batch of 20 from Terex cost me £8 @ Cardboard packing tube with small plastic screw top sample jar and sheet of paper/ Take sample fill in paperwork, where sample is from, oil type, unit type, oil hours etc. Pop it in the post and get the results back within a week.

[03warrior]

Thanks for the reply. I myself believe in do everything possiable to keep the machines running in as good as condition as possible. That is if I were the owner of the company. Downtime = low profits or no profit in the end. Can't work if you machine isn't working for you. Absolutely agree on making sure your guys are doing there part in maintaining the equipment for you, and potential problems before they become bigger.:usa:thumbsup

[CM1995]

NOTE ! I am in UK. The last batch of 20 from Terex cost me £8 @ Cardboard packing tube with small plastic screw top sample jar and sheet of paper

Rob is that 8 pounds (don't have that symbol on my keyboard:rolleyes:) total for 20 bottles and the sample results or 8 pounds each?

I drop mine off at the local Cat house, if it goes into the mail it takes forever due to the "hazardous materials" rules. If I drop a sample off and ask for a rush I can get the results in 24-48 hours. The best part about this particular service is email results in PDF format sent to me, the office and my foreman.

We sample every 250 HR service, that includes coolant, finals, hyd, - even if it is not time to change the fluid.

[surfer-joe]

Roddyo, let me get back to you on pricing. It's been a year or two since I last enquired on sample prices, and they may have gone up since then. That 7 buck price was also for bottles only, in thousand lots.

CM1995 is getting a pretty good price at 12 bucks from his Cat dealer. I always found better pricing at independent labs however, tho one does have to be carefull with them on quality work.

[AtlasRob]

Rob is that 8 pounds (don't have that symbol on my keyboard:rolleyes:) total for 20 bottles and the sample results or 8 pounds each?


Sorry CM1995, didnt think about worldwide coverage of different symbols.
For as long as I can remember the symbol ( abbreviation) for "each" has been @ then some joker invented the internet and the world now uses @ in thier email address to denote "AT" :Banghead.
What I should have said was " the last batch of 20 that I bought from Terex here in the UK were 8 UK pounds each" that is the sample kit including postage to the lab and returned paperwork result via post. :drinkup

[CM1995]

What I should have said was " the last batch of 20 that I bought from Terex here in the UK were 8 UK pounds each" that is the sample kit including postage to the lab and returned paperwork result via post. :drinkup

Rob we are paying about the same, it costs me $12 per sample. Does the oil lab you use offer to email their results? It's a time saver.

The symbol I was referring to was the Pound symbol, of course I have this one $$$ and thought of using this one &, but just didn't even look close enough to the UK Pound symbol.:D Although I haven't heard of using the @ to denote "each" either, you learn something new everyday.:)

[JDOFMEMI]

It is good practice to sample all components at each engine oil change, not just at the component oil change.
Take final drives on a D-9 for instance. Oil is typically changed at 2000 hrs, but a problem may come up before then, and at every 250 interval, you can find it. I have saved a couple when they just needed bearings and seals for $5000, instead of new gears, machine work, New carriers, and a $15,000 to $20,000 bill to fix after failure.

[John C.]

You know I've never bought into the oil sample cost saving pitch. Today I would only use oil samples while a component is in warranty and deliberately quit it when I have no chance of collecting a repair bill from someone else.

I have also never had a sample on a final drive tell me anything I didn't already know. The junk that collects on the magnet on the plug tells me there is high iron in that final or differential and you know what, I can change the oil, put the plug back in and find the same thing in 500 hours. Everything in there is made of steel. I would be more worried if I didn't have a high iron content. The more common report says there is too much water in the oil to be able to test it.

I've been forced to spend thousands of dollars putting a sample program together only to be able to troubleshoot my own problems with little input from the sample historys. I've also had premature catastrophic failure of components with absolutely no warning from the sample program. I've only been through one incident where a sample might have made the dealer some money. A transmission sample apparently showed antifreeze getting in. It didn't show any wear and the machine was not loosing coolant. The dealer changed the cooler anyway and I'm sure billed the job to the Cat warranty department.

I've been to many a dealer lot looking at used equipment and checked oil only find they have all been changed. It became one of my selling points on saving a customer money. Why waste money on a sample when I could pull oil out of a new drum and get the same results.

As far as cost, I've found I had to buy a whole lot of sample bottles and suction tube to get the price below $15 a sample. I charge customers $25 per sample when looking at machines.

Take all this as another point of view.

[Johnsoils]

Jeff, I question if these samples were yours. Did you pull the samples and mail them, or did the dealership pull and mail them? With grinding down three cam lobes and seizing the followers; the iron level should have been significant. More than the 12 shown here. I question that they sent in your oil, or give you your results.

I've been pulling, reading and interpreting oil samples for a major natural gas pipeline company for the past 20-years. It pays dividends and we find a lot of problems when they are in their beginning stages before they become big problems. You have to do routine analysis like others have stated in this forum and monitor the trends. In your case here with severe cam and follower failures, the iron should have been more like 100 or 200+ PPM iron. Thanks for sharing your experience with us.

[Iron Horse]

It's good practice with a Mack too replace the cam and lifters whenever the ash tray is emptied .***

The only good Mack will have a Series 60 engine , 18 speed Eaton , 46-160 Rockwells and Hendrickson airbags .:rolleyes:

[Speedpup]

I do my two vehicles a 2001 Dodge dooley and an 04 Excursion. The recommended change was 7500. I found the Excursion needed oil changes at 5,000 due to fuel contamination and the Dodge can go to 10,000 miles. If they did the same milage it is a draw but each vehicle is getting what it needs.

Now I want to do my hydraulic oil on the machines.

[Johnsoils]

Just curious, is the Ford Excursion a gas engine or diesel? Do you do a great deal of idling the engine? Excessive idling can be a source of fuel dilution. A good injecter cleaning can also correct fuel dilution issues if the cause is due to dirty injectors (diesel or gasoline).

Great to hear that you are using oil analysis. You have been able to establish a baseline oil change interval that fits your vehicle and driving habits. I've had oil life of 18,000-miles to 26,000-miles depending on my driving and how much idling I do. Oil analysis is the best way to accurately gauge your oil life, and keep tabs on what's going on inside the engine.

[Randy88]

We are pretty religious about sampling oil on everything from engines to hydraulics to gearboxes, I even use it for a baseline of trading stuff off, we had a tractor that was making metal in the engine and you couldin't see it and nobody knew where it was coming from but was bad enough to recommend changing every 25 hrs, we didn't like the tractor enough to fix it so we got rid of it, engine locked up within 200 hrs I'm told, a van we owned was the same story over about 50,000 miles it was making more metal and we traded, just in time, several transmissions were making metal but wasn't really visable by looking, did a tear down and several bearings were flaking, new bearings and seals, cheap fix, the biggest problem we've had is water contamination in hydraulic oil due to condensation, so many hours use and the condensation causes excessive wear we hardly ever make it to hour changes, we usually run early, no filter can take out moisture, so we sample between drains or every time we change engine oil we pull a hydraulic sample. We run primarily Kendall oil and they provide samples free if you buy their oil, so if you sample a small engine that takes a quart or a semi that takes 10 gallons doesn't matter its free or if we pull 20 hydraulic samples before changing the hydraulic oil that holds 20 gallons, we use it for prebuy analysis, if I can't sample it before I walk away. We try to get a baseline started with several samples but if they come back on a prebuy higher than I'd like to see we don't even touch it, 90% of failures or bad samples come from stuff you can't see by looking at it, if you can see the metal or if its stuck to the magnet, man you've got serious problems, we can at least expect problems and work around it. We knew my transmission was having problems on one of my dozers due to sampling and didn't have time last winter to do a teardown, ran it all year and on the last job a bearing went out, my own fault should have taken the time to put new bearings in last winter but the point is I knew it was coming, still didn't do much damage other than bearings and seals, still working on it now. If I didn't want to fix it I had two years to get it traded off before it went out. A friend of mine bought a used skidsteer one time and changed the oil when he got it home, ran it for 10 hours and changed it again, sent in a sample and the sample was so bad it said change oil 100hrs sooner, needless to say it was traded in a week, we almost always have them come back saying run 50hrs longer or 100hrs longer on a change and a lot of times we do extend drain intervals on engines accordingly, why not the oils still good and clean, not contaminated to point of causing wear. Its not rocket science just another tool to use for determining life left in equipment and whats needed for repairs in the upcoming months or years, why spend a lot of money on a piece of equipment if we want to update it anyway. Just my thoughts though

[Iron Horse]

This is the reason i don't buy used equipment . Ending up with someones time bomb that's been dumped onto the market .

[Randy88]

I always call the person that traded in a piece of machinery I am looking to buy and ask just such questions I always ask for repair history and oil sampling, if the previous owner can provide oil sampling the machine is worth more for value to me along with actuall hours, I've found most people are honest and will tell you what they know of the machine and what problems they have had with it, expecially if they aren't selling it directly themselves and I've had excellant luck buying used and when anyone calls and asks me why I traded I tell them the truth and have oil samples to back me up then its up to them to decide if they want to buy it or not and they shouldn't be upset with me for trading it in. I've bought a lot of machinery that needed repairs and bought it knowing that going in but it was worth it to me for the hours or need I had for that machine at the time, not everyone out there can afford to buy everything new, let alone justify it, I own over 70 machines with engines and not to mention how many things without, some I put 1000hrs per year on and some don't get an hour on in a given year depending on what we are doing that year and everything in between. With the exception of a half dozen things we purchased new all were bought used. I ask a lot of stupid questions but knock on wood I feel I at least am an informed buyer and as of yet have never had any surprises as far as unexpected repairs on the hundreds of machines and equipment I've bought over the years. Oil sampling has saved me hundreds of thousand of dollars in repairs when caught early the repairs were much less than when it was dead and totally shelled out.

[AtlasRob]

Older thread but good topic. My local Cat dealer does our samples for $12.00 each. If the machine is under warranty it is free.

The last batch of 20 from Terex cost me £8 @

Reality check :Banghead

Rang Terex to order another batch of sample kits, sorry we dont do them anymore! :bash Cant believe that Terex UK, sorry " Terex Distribution Ltd " now, do not provide a sample service/contact for thier customers :beatsme

Finally I managed to get a number for the original lab that was used and made the purchase direct. Purchased 15 to do axles, hubs, hyd, transmission and engine as machine is 2yrs old.
£13 each and £1:50 to post it, before they were post paid and £8 each.

[IndReman]

I own a company that rebuilds components for heavy equipment. On all our transmissions we require oil samples for our warranty. You can really tell if a component is going to fail if you have three good oil samples and then the fourth one has real high metals all of a sudden. It is a lot cheaper to pull a component that is starting to show failure, then to let it fail. Once they destroy themselves your looking at a big core charge, or secondary billing from most companies.

[Wrench_one]

We sample every machine every service. It has saved us thousands of dollars in the long run. I know I can get 14000 hours out of a 988h engine if the oil is changed and sampled
every 250 hours religiously. CAT SOS oil anaylisis is a very cost effective tool at 10$ a sample.

[MrKomatsu]

KOWA also offers 10$...Oil sampleing is the best preventive maintance item anyone can have..........

[Wrench_one]

Cat sample kits cost 10 bucs a piece when you buy them and includes the oil analysis.

[AtlasRob]

Cat sample kits cost 10 bucs a piece when you buy them and includes the oil analysis.

Thats intresting. Will C@t supply other than their own I wonder.
Will have to make a call and ask. :drinkup

[burt]

oil sampleing at set intervals is the best gift you can ever give your machinery. By pully regular oil samples you can trend your specific components. No 2 components are the same, nor do they wear the same.

[Randy88]

I use Kendall oil and they provide oil sampling free to me for buying their oil from my supplier weather its one sample or 50 as long as its thier oil, on a prebuy sample where I have no idea what brand of oil was in the unit, I have it set up with my supplier that those get billed to me for 5 bucks each, contact the labs that do the sampling theres only a few that do it and I've talked to them and found out that they do it for most of the major manufacturers along with oil companies and suppliers.
After that it didn't make me any difference what brand of machine I was looking at or who had it I just pull samples and send them in myself with my customer number on and the lab takes care of all the billing to my oil supplier all I need to include is if its a "prebuy" or a regular sample and most of the time my oil supplier covers the cost due to the volume of oil I buy, I've sent in hundreds of samples over the years and maybe spent 50 bucks on sampling. Corner your oil suppliers and demand a better deal from them provided you deal with one supplier, even if he'll pay half the cost its at least something, my supplier has done it for years and that was their sales pitch to sell oil, they all have accounts set up at discounted rates with the labs or volume rates whatever you want to call it.

[GOINGBROKE]

Below is the results of oil samples that were taken out of a Acert Caterpillar truck engine. Air filters and oil were changed at 500,000 and then sampled 2 times after that with the same results. The hope was to get some warranty coverage even though it ran out at 500,000. Caterpillar said that there had been a problem with broken rings and that was there guess in this case, but no warranty until it has completly failed but you are over 500,000 sorry.

My question and problem with oil samples, other than fuel and coolant contamination is at what point do you tear an engine apart to determine the cause of the bad sample. This sample was taken in sept. and there has been no problem since and have not taken another sample. There has been another 30,000 miles on the truck.

I have also had metal chunks on drain plug and an oil sample that showed good. Send the samples to local Caterpillar dealer, $18.00 can have results in email the next day.

E490-39266-0070 9/19/09 508875 HR
Monitor Compartment SHARP INCREASE IN IRON, ALUMINUM, AND SOOT NOTED. CHECK THE INDUCTION SYSTEM FOR RESTRICTIONS. REPLACE AIR FILTERS. OTHER READINGS APPEAR TO BE NORMAL.
9/23/09 No Unknown
E490-39246-0053 9/2/09 502936 HR
Monitor Compartment HARD CARBON SOOT LEVELS ARE WELL ABOVE THE RECOMMENDED LEVELS. OTHER REDUCTIONS NOTED THROUGHOUT. CHANGE AIR FILTERS. OTHER READINGS APPEAR TO BE NORMAL.
9/3/09 No Unknown
E330-39230-0058 8/13/09 497701 HR
UNKNOWN MILES ON OIL. IRON AND ALUMINUM REMAIN UNACCEPTABLE. VISCOSITY REMAINS ABOVE RECOMMENDED MAXIMUM OF 16.3 CENISTOKES FOR 15/40 OIL. OTHER READINGS
Monitor Compartment APPEAR TO BE NORMAL. A NEW INFRARED METHOD OF ANALYSIS WAS IMPLEMENTED; TREND WILL NEED TO BE RE-ESTABLISHED. RESAMPLE IN 10,000 MILES TO MONITOR.
8/18/09 Yes Yes
E330-38246-0049 8/28/08 9000 HR 9000 HR
IRON, ALUMINUM AND SOOT ARE UNACCEPTABLE. VISCOSITY IS ABOVE RECOMMENDED MAXIMUM OF 16.3 CENISTOKES FOR 15/40 OIL. CHECK THE AIR FILTER FOR CLOGGING. SUGGEST
CHANGE OIL AND FILTER(S) AND RESAMPLE IN 3,000 MILES TO MONITOR.
9/2/08 No Unknown

[rigandig]

Thats intresting. Will C@t supply other than their own I wonder.
Will have to make a call and ask. :drinkup

Rob, Here you can buy your sample kits from Cat, have them do the analysis, and there is no problem with whether the unit being sampled is Cat or not. The report will show you all the metals, and dirt or other pollutants. Biggest thing is the regular samples and then look for any increase in the contaminants. Any spike will generally be something that at the least needs a closer look to determine what caused it.

They are a cheap maintenance tool that can save lots of money when done regularly.
Just my .02 worth

[AtlasRob]

Rob, Here you can buy your sample kits from Cat, have them do the analysis, and there is no problem with whether the unit being sampled is Cat or not.

Thanks for pulling this back up, I had completely forgotten to check with C@t for pricing :thumbsup

ON EDIT

No time like the present. Just rang Slough depot, £13:50 each even if I buy 10, but that includes postage paid within UK so thats cheaper than buying from the Lab.