Benefits of excavator over track loader

[osborneconst]

I just posted what wears out first on a track hoe, and would like to know from those of you that have run one, what are the benefits of a track hoe over a track loader? We currently use a ?2003? Deere 655c track loader, the newer style rear engine one. I want to get a Deere 200 excavator but my Dad is not sure about it. I need to convince him some benefits to a track hoe and we might sale the 655 and use our older loader with the excavator. Any input at all will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Mark

[Ford LT-9000]

Who still uses track loaders I thought those went out with the dinosaurs :bouncegri

I don't know what kind of digging you do but for us a excavator can do 90% of the work. Track Loaders are obsolete nobody uses them anymore they were common 30 years ago but soon as hydraulic excavators came into market good bye track loaders.

[denick]

Mark,

I don’t know if there is enough space in this forum to explain the benifits of a hydraulic excavator
for the work you explained in your other post. You have to try one. In every cost catergory you will save money over the tracked loader. The versitility of work that you can take on is hard to believe until you try it.

I’ve operated 953 size CAT tracked loaders since 1968 and still own one and love it. We have had excavators since 1977.

Team the loader you own with a 200 JD excavator, together with good operators and you have a highly productive team. The tracked loader has a lot going for it and has its advantages. They have gotten us a lot of work.

Get your father in the truck and go watch some work. Try out some rentals or demo’s. My father and uncle could not see the advantage of the hydraulic excavator over the tracked loader or our cable backhoes until I talked a salesman into dropping one off at our yard over a weekend. Thats a long story.

Nick

[rino1494]

We still use track loaders for doing pipe work and building roads and ponds. We stopped using them for foundations back in the late 80's when we got our first excavator. We do have a Case 450 track loader that we use for carrying dirt around houses, but that is about all we use it for in house work.

[G60syncro]

Same in our area!! If people need a large area done in a short time, they just get a 40-50 ton excavator to do the work. The added expense of getting the bigger machine there is quickly offset by the added versatility of the machine. We've built some high capacity ditching buckets 84" wide for such excavators... Without the brackets in looked like a bucket for a small loader!!! At around 3.3yd it moves a lot of dirt and with an 84" cutting edge, it can level a large area. After that the machine can still dig a trench, be used to crane objects around the jobsite and other assorted odd jobs.

[Tigerotor77W]

The track loader became a pain when UC replacement time came... it's much the same story with bulldozers, but as of yet, no machine can match the ruggedness of a bulldozer. Until some company comes out with a system that completely eliminates bushing turns but doesn't sacrifice ride quality, track loaders probably won't return to greatness -- which is why there are less than five serious manufacturers of them in the world today.

(This is, by the way, the intention of Cat's SystemOne undercarriage.)

Personally, I love them. They are quick, efficient, and look great. I grew up with a contractor who used a 953 and 225 in my area, and still think that my favorite Cat product is either the 963C or 973C.

[stuvecorp]

Around here most everyone has the excavator but there are acouple of guys that still do all their work with track loaders. I've been told that the track loaders are the second best machine for the job. Personally I would buy the excavator but if work supports it we would have a track loader also. Have alot of respect for the 953's.

[Jake]

I have been operating track loaders for the past 10 years mainly 953's and 963's. Majority of our pipe crews use them and save the rubber tire loaders for road work or moving supplies around on larger jobs. I can see a track hoe if it is stationary and going a big cut, but a loader is the ticket when it comes to stripping topsoil and then loading it out. or cutting in roads.

[rino1494]

Unfortunately, I haven't had the chance to run a 953 - 973. We own a 955K and a 977L with a ripper. They are great machines for being 20-30 years old. I gotta keep working 2 levers to run the tilt/dump and lower/raise. I wish I could run a hydrostatic track loader. :notworthy

[RyanCKing]

Hey Jake
Why do the pipe crews run the track loaders over the rubber tired? Is it just because of the jobsite conditions?

[JimBruce42]

I agree with Jake. You have to really look at what you will be doing with the machine. Just hogging dirt, loading a truck or digging for pipe and the excavator will prevail, but as soon as you need to move that dirt any distance from the cut, or you are stripping topsoil, you'll need the track loader. In my opinion, if it's viable, get the 200 and keep the 655c, you may not get as much for the older machine, but as repairs are needed it will be easier to get the parts for the 655c, especially if the older machine is a lot older.

Our pipe crews are a lot like Jake's... a 345 digging and setting pipe and a 228 and a 963 backfill... the 963 is also in charge of keeping the bedding box full and all the other large items within reach of the 345....

Mark, what ever you decide I'm sure it will be for the best. Good Luck:thumbsup

Jim

[RyanCKing]

Jim
What method do you use to reach compaction requirements when backfilling?

[JimBruce42]

Ryan,

I didn't work a lot with the pipe crews last year, and may not again once I start full time, but a lot of it has to do with the depth of the trench. The Komatsu PC228's ususally have a quick coupler and when they are backfilling use a felco compactor plate/bucket (you can sort of see it in this photo). In the deeper trenches, the 228 starts the backfill, and then a small sheepsfoot roller & 963 is used for the top few lifts. I think a lot of it has to do with the crew and the utility being placed

-Jim.

PS- Something else to consider Mark, getting a quick coupler for your machine can save you a lot time and money.

[dayexco]

our pipe crews run 2 excavators, one digging, one compacting, we keep our excavations as narrow as possible with the use or trench boxes to minimize the amount of material we have to compact back in the excavation. we use primarily a sheepsfoot on an excavator for compaction. we also have a stanley excavator mounted vibratory plate, but only use it when our clay soils get 4-5% over optimum moisture. trying to run a sheepsfoot like mine in wetter soil is like trying to roll bubble gum. for the most part, the sheepsfoot is MUCH faster than the vibratory plate if your soil conditions allow it

[Jake]

Yes weather is a factor when running a rubbertired loader. Track loaders are better when it comes to backfilling deep trenches cause you can get on top of the spoil pile and push down in to the ditch. Then the loader can get down in the ditch and push a lift about 20' from where the pipe layer is, then for compaction all we do is bring a roller in the ditch to compact. Usually we hit the first lift with a plate tamper mounter on a 416 backhoe. Then the loader will run in the ditch to widen it out fot the roller.

[Rip]

Jim,

While I am fairly new to this forum, we are just taking delivery of a new Komatsu 228 up in BC today - the operator is getting it all scratched up as I write this. :bouncegri

How has that machine worked for you? Really wanted the ZTS even though it pushed us into a bit larger machine than we began looking at.

Rip

[rino1494]

We usually use a trench roller to compact the trenches or we use a backhoe with mounted with a plate compacter.

[denick]

Mark,

How open are the areas you work in? Is it all residential? Do you do developement work or single lots? Do you excavate for additions? Pools? Existing home landscape work? What do you use for trenching? How deep do you trench?

Nick

[Dozerboy]

You get a hoe and you will wonder had you ever made any $$$ with a track loader. But there is nothing like getting down and dirty with a track loader.

[Wolf]

I agree with Dozer Boy. You get an excavator, an it's a whole different story. but there is nothing like doing demo with the track loader. you really get into the building and feel the crashing and crunching all around you. nothing like that feeling of ripping into an old house with the track loader, tear though the walls, climb up and grab the roof with the bucket, build a ramp and climb up higher and tear down more and more of the house. you really feel the destruction all around you. love that crashing and crunching. track loaders forever. they are a special type of machine.

[kenw]

I have a residential excavating company I started in 1978. We currently own 11 crawler loaders, 3 trackhoe's, 1 dozer, 1 backhoe, 2 Cat skid steer's, 1 mini-excavator. It depends on the site and the work you are doing which is better. They both have there place. However I have always said if I could only have one machine it would be a crawler loader with a 4 in 1 bucket.:usa :usa

[CascadeScaper]

Now I'm not an expert, but I don't know how you could run an excavation business without at least 1 excavator. Last year when we bought our 303CR, it opened up so many doors for us. Now that we have a 312, we're exposed to even more versatility.

[Sims68]

I am new to the profession and to the forums, but I would think that an excavator would be of more overall use than a track loader. Track loaders are more job specific I think, and excavators are considerably more versatile than your average track loader. Just my personal opinion though.

[Countryboy]

Welcome to HEF Sims68! :drinkup

[lgammon]

i think that excavator is a fine machine on small sites but we do alot if 1-3 acrae lots, moving dirt that far with an excavator is just a joke and wast of time but with our 953b it is no problem. now when we are digging ditches the excavator the stuff but i hate grading with them. with a loader you can dig while bringing down a slope and keep it compacted to help stop erosion. compation is the biggest draw back to an excavator you have to work to hard at it instead of just riding back and forth a few times on it. lets compare 2 machines that are the same weight ( so we are talking about two machines that are the same to transport) a 953 and a 315. 953 you have an 8 foot wide bucket, the 312 42"-48". we all know that the wider the blade the easyer to grade. i promise you can move dirt faster with the 953, as long as you are moving it more than you reach with the hoe. i just like the loader better feel more like a man in a dozer like machine.

[CM1995]

Reviving an old thread and a good discussion.

If I had to choose one machine it would definetely be a track loader. Of course there are different circumstances and jobsite conditions that warrant one type of equipment over the other. Let's eliminate trenching and pipe work from the equation since that is definetely the realm of the hoe and focus on excavating.

A track loader can grade like a dozer, clear and grubb like a dozer or a hoe and load trucks rather effeciently. This can all be accomplished with one machine, one operator and pulled on a tag trailer behind your dump truck (953 size, which is most popular). A track loader can replace a small dozer on a fill line, then go clear and grubb an area, backfill a trench line, go load a few trucks out and then carry a manhole across the jobsite for the pipe crew.

Let's compare the hoe to the track loader:

Clearing trees (getting them on the ground) - hoe
Grubbing roots and limbs - track loader
Loading trucks from a bank cut - hoe
Pushing a fill line out - hands down loader
Grading for a new road - track loader
Grading and compacting slopes - track loader
Carrying pipe and keeping gravel box filled - track loader
Carrying dirt from one spot on the project, spreading and grading - track loader


Being able to do all of these tasks with one machine - track loader. I have a 953C and it is the jack of all trades and I would get rid of the dozers and hoes before I got rid of it - it's just too versatile. In excavation work, the track loader can replace a hoe and a dozer - especially if that's all ya got.

In abrasive material and rock situations the hoe will out perform the track loader and move the material cheaper due to the higher wear rates of the track loader undercarriage compared to a hoe. The loader is using its undercarriage constantly unlike the hoe that stays somewhat stationary. The higher cost of the loaders undercarriage is an acceptable trade off to the versatility of the machine. My projects range from the occasional residential basement (usually as favors or for family :bash ) to 1M CY dirt jobs and the track loader is rarely idle - it's a Swiss Army knife.

Of course the decision whether to have only 1 machine, either a hoe or a track loader, is based on many, many factors. If a contractor can justify both machines, then he will have a very efficient combination for a variety of projects. The hoe is definetely here to stay but I don't think the track loader is going away - evidenced by the new models introduced by Deere and Cat.

[deeredude]

as for stripping out topsoil and hauling it away, i think it'd be more efficient to use a dozer/hoe combo on anything bigger than 2 acres. what do you guys think?

[nedly05]

Each machine will be better suited for certain applications. Honestly, since I havent run a track loader in years, I feel that an excavator is a very "well rounded" machine for any excavating contractor to own. I would say If possible keep the newer track loader and get a nice excavator, with two good operators you can do quite the stroke of business in a day with both working together!

[Deas Plant]

Hi, CM1995.
Mate, you have pretty much covered it all re track loader vs hoe. I agree wholeheartedly with your summation.

Several years ago, I was loading trucks on a site near home, using a 953B which was wearing an old Cat 950 (4wd) 4-in-1 loader bucket, about 10-15% bigger than the standard 953B bucket. About 100 yards away, working in the same sort of soil - soft shale - was a Cat 350 hoe. He was loading 12 cu yd tippers in 3 passes and I was loading similar sized trucks in 3 1/2 buckets.

Now look at the weight (49 tons to 15 tons) and price differences (the 953B cost A$77,000 second-hand at Ritchie Bros) and the fuel consumption as well. I was putting about 150-160 litres per day - 33-36 imperial gallons - through the 953B. I doubt that the 350 hoe would survive the day on that.

Another type of job that I did several times with that 953 involved pushing the sand from one half of a normal house block about 3 - 3 1/2 feet deep, onto the other half of the block. The sand was then pushed back into the hole in 12" layers, flooded as it was going in, and track-rolled to compact it. The procedure was then repeated for the other end. Try doing that with a hoe.

Also, see the photos I posted last night on the "Tree Clearing Day" thread. There is no way you can do that job as quick with a 12-ton hoe as I did it with that 12-ton Cat 943 - 1 hour - including photo-taking time - and including cleaning up almost every stick, twig and root. Those bucket teeth make a pretty neat rake.

I also get many a laugh out of hoe operators who think they can excavate a dam/pond as well as a track loader or dozer. About 95% of them leak because there is no clay-ing up and NO COMPACTION.

Where possible, let's use the RIGHT machine for the job. Where I have the choice of only one machine for many jobs, I'll take a good track loader with 4-in-1 bucket and rippers anytime. I LIKE operating a good excavator/hoe digging or loading out bulk material and I do it pretty well, even if I do say so myself. However, for a 'jack-of-all-trades' mchine, the track loader is hard to beat.

Just my 0.02 - and over 42 years experience on one or two different types of machine.

[ror76a]

We have used track loaders in the past (25-30 years ago) but that was before my time. We use wheel loaders for most of the things you guys prefer a track loader for, the only time I wish I had a track loader is when it gets too wet. A wheel loader is quicker and costs less to run, can also road them from job to job short distances. I would prefer the excavator and wheel loader, and dozer (for grading, leveling, and moving material shorter distances) combination, but as many people here pointed out the track loader would be the best if you only had one machine. Kind of like the skidsteer/mini excavator vs loader backhoe scenario.

[RKO]

After you have an excavator you will wonder how you got along with out one. I have four excavators and they run non stop everyday. I also have two crawler loaders and they get about three hours a day on them and most days none. I do every thing from pipe work, sub divisions, river work to farm work. I just finished a job that another contractor could not do because all he had was a crawler loader. I cleaned out several large ponds and loaded the dirt out on trucks. He started on the first dam and a month later and being stuck many time he had nothing done. I pulled in a did a pond every week and he still did not have the first one done. I would load three trucks with an excavator while he loaded one. Also loading a truck with an excavator you can load the trucks easier and have a happier truck driver. Try dumping concrete easily in a truck with a crawler loader, with an excavator it is no problem. While you are stuck with the crawler loader an excavator with swing the mug and you can keep working. that is more work done per week Don't worry about fuel consumption or price of machine, look at what you get done per gallon of fuel and dollar invested. While that crawler loader is setting it is not making you money. There is a place for an Crawler loader but it is small in today's world.

[CM1995]

RKO - You said this:

I also have two crawler loaders and they get about three hours a day on them and most days none..

And then this:

While that crawler loader is setting it is not making you money. There is a place for an Crawler loader but it is small in today's world.

My question is "Why do you own two track loaders that are not making you any money?".:beatsme

[RKO]

RKO - You said this:



And then this:



My question is "Why do you own two track loaders that are not making you any money?".:beatsme

Because I sometimes need one for pipe work a couple hours a week and the rent would soon add up. (rental companies don't care you only ran it 2 hours it cost so much per month running or not and rental money is gone) You have to figure the cost to own, resale, cost to rent, down time when you can't get one, then figure your tax benefits, to name a few factors. I'm better of owning and just let them set when not using them. I have a 953C that only has 140 hours, but is worth more today than I paid for it. (equipment usually hold it's value) I take depreciation on it and It does not cost me much to own. Even if you could rent one, not a lot of rental places I know keep crawler loaders. A lot of my jobs are last minute deals I need to get in and get the job done fast and done right, So I do not want to be looking for a crawler loader when I need one. Also I leave them on the farm when I'm not using them, great to load/unload stuff and other fun tasks. I don't look at work as work I look at it as a big play ground. I always tell my mom that I need to grow up and get a job, NO CHANCE. Hope this answers your question.

[Deas Plant]

Hi, RKO.
Horses for courses. May I suggest that you read my reply to you on the 'Tree Clearing Day' thread. You can talk excavators until you are blue in the face but that still won't make them anything but what they are, a tool that does some jobs better than it does others. That same situation applies with ANY construction machine.

You find them very handy for your work and I'll freely admit that they are a better tool than a track loader for cleaning out dams. However, in my humble estimation, a track loader or, even better, a well set-up dozer, including a 4wd dozer, will leave an excavator for dead in sinking the dam in the first place. Now can you tell me why I might think that?

[RKO]

Hi, RKO.
Horses for courses. May I suggest that you read my reply to you on the 'Tree Clearing Day' thread. You can talk excavators until you are blue in the face but that still won't make them anything but what they are, a tool that does some jobs better than it does others. That same situation applies with ANY construction machine.

You find them very handy for your work and I'll freely admit that they are a better tool than a track loader for cleaning out dams. However, in my humble estimation, a track loader or, even better, a well set-up dozer, including a 4wd dozer, will leave an excavator for dead in sinking the dam in the first place. Now can you tell me why I might think that?



Not sure what your last sentences was supposed to mean?
First I will say that every area is different on soils and excavation practices.
I do not know what the guy did that cleaned the dam out before you so I can not say. But every area I have worked a dozer is worthless cleaning a dam or even constructing a dam. I will clean and SEAL a dam with an excavator so much fast than a Dozer there is comparison. I have never had a Dam leak when I done cleaning or building one, and I have built hundreds of dams and lagoons. A dozer, crawler loader or worse yet a 4 wheel drive dozer would be stuck trying to clean a dam. The area that most dams are built are wet and those machines would not run. I have seen some older contractors still try using dozers or crawler loaders and they end buried and hire someone with an excavator to finish. I speak from hundreds of jobs and years of experience so it is not just an estimation. Everyone I know does it the same way I do, so it is not just me. Have you ever tried and excavator??? I use to do things with a dozer but stopped using dozers for most jobs when excavators came out. Dozers have a usage but it is a small usage. If dozers and loaders are so great for jobs why does most major equipment manufacturers build more excavators than dozers or loaders??? Look at all the small companies that build excavators??? Dozers were obsoleted out when excavators were modernized. You can keep using your dozer or loader to clean dams, but no one will hire you to do a job???

[CM1995]

You have to figure the cost to own, resale, cost to rent, down time when you can't get one, then figure your tax benefits, to name a few factors. I'm better of owning and just let them set when not using them. I have a 953C that only has 140 hours, but is worth more today than I paid for it. (equipment usually hold it's value) I take depreciation on it and It does not cost me much to own.

RKO - When calculating a ROI on a piece of equipment I use the same factors that you stated above, except I also factor in the utilization of the machine. I could not justify the expense of a track loader or any other piece of equipment, that only saw a few hours a week - regardless of the rental rates vs ownership calculations. If I had a TL that only saw a few hours a week to support a pipe crew, then I would just use the excavator to carry the pipe and walk it to the bedding pile/box or use whatever machine is available.

In my short career in owning equipment I have found that any piece of equipment is a depreciating asset. In fact I do not have one piece of equipment, regardless of hours, that is worth more than I paid for it. The newer ones are worse but the used ones depreciate as well. Now I am assuming you bought your 953C new or close to new with 140 hours on it. I don't know what kind of deal you got, but my '04 953C lost about $2k in value when the dealers lowboy dropped it off at the project. This was an acceptable cost to me because I knew that I would have the machine for a while and it would be utilized.

The bonus depreciation that we have all taken advantage of is also a double edged sword if you need to sell your iron. In reality it was tax deferment, not tax abatement. If you buy a $200k machine and take the first year bonus depreciation in addition to your depreciation schedule, you can depreciate that joker down to $0 in a few years. Problem is you sell it in year 3 for $135K but you depreciated it down to $50k - then you pay your recapture taxes on the difference. (OK - enough bean counting, my head is already hurting)

On an interesting side note: The track loaders do hold their value better than a dozer, roller, artic or trackhoe in my neck of the woods. In fact, I have found that excavators loose more value than any other piece of equipment that I own.

[RKO]

RKO - When calculating a ROI on a piece of equipment I use the same factors that you stated above, except I also factor in the utilization of the machine. I could not justify the expense of a track loader or any other piece of equipment, that only saw a few hours a week - regardless of the rental rates vs ownership calculations. If I had a TL that only saw a few hours a week to support a pipe crew, then I would just use the excavator to carry the pipe and walk it to the bedding pile/box or use whatever machine is available.

In my short career in owning equipment I have found that any piece of equipment is a depreciating asset. In fact I do not have one piece of equipment, regardless of hours, that is worth more than I paid for it. The newer ones are worse but the used ones depreciate as well. Now I am assuming you bought your 953C new or close to new with 140 hours on it. I don't know what kind of deal you got, but my '04 953C lost about $2k in value when the dealers lowboy dropped it off at the project. This was an acceptable cost to me because I knew that I would have the machine for a while and it would be utilized.

The bonus depreciation that we have all taken advantage of is also a double edged sword if you need to sell your iron. In reality it was tax deferment, not tax abatement. If you buy a $200k machine and take the first year bonus depreciation in addition to your depreciation schedule, you can depreciate that joker down to $0 in a few years. Problem is you sell it in year 3 for $135K but you depreciated it down to $50k - then you pay your recapture taxes on the difference. (OK - enough bean counting, my head is already hurting)

On an interesting side note: The track loaders do hold their value better than a dozer, roller, artic or trackhoe in my neck of the woods. In fact, I have found that excavators loose more value than any other piece of equipment that I own.



I do not do my taxes myself so I can only go by what my account tells me. I tell him what I want to do and gives me the Tax angle. In today's economy you have to look at all angles. I bought the 953C new, did get a good deal on it. I have Quick changes for bucket, forks and roller. The quick change is the same for all my loaders. Mostly I use a wheel loader to haul pipe and fill rock box. But sometimes the ground will not support a wheel loader and I need a crawler loader. Normally all my excavators are busy digging or back filling that is why I use the track loader.. Also construction is going great guns in this area and rental machines are hard to get when you need them. Like I said earlier a lot of my jobs are short notice and I want the machines I need available
Track loaders hold their value in this area, just not many here. Excavators hold their value to. It is hard to go to any job site and not see excavators at work. Motor Scrapers and dozers don't hold their value, Pull scrapers, off road trucks, motor graders and excavators do most of the work.

[CM1995]

I wish I would have got a quick coupler on my TL - maybe the next one, a D model.:D So what kind of roller attachement do you have for your TL? Ya' got any pictures?

[RKO]

I wish I would have got a quick coupler on my TL - maybe the next one, a D model.:D So what kind of roller attachement do you have for your TL? Ya' got any pictures?

I have Balderson Hydr.Quick couplers. I wanted the same Quick Coupler on all machines so we had to change the part that goes on the machine so I could use all the attachments on all the machines. The roller is a CFM brand. It is made to go on the excavators or with an adapter will fit the Balderson Quick coupler. It is just has four wheels with feet on it. I will be back down to where we are working and get a picture.

[Deas Plant]

Hi, RKO.
Quote: "Have you ever tried an excavator?"

Heee, heee, heee. You really have no idea who or what you are talking to here, do you? Well, let me put it to you this way. I'm just a worn-out, tired, lazy, old, has-been dozer and loader operator who just occasionally gets on an excavator and out-loads the guys who are running them all the time - or just occasionally gets on a grader and does some final trim or some other work with it almost as well as those who are doing it all the time - or just occasionally gets on a scraper and keeps up with the regular scraper operators. I have also allowed myself to be coerced into operating draglines, face shovels, backhoes, bobcats, dump trucks, mobile cranes, sideboom pipelayers and a few other things as well. Can you tell me what an Arrow hammer is? What is a Koehring 466? Or a Hy-mac 580? Or a JD 5010 or 760?

You stand there with your bare face hanging out and try to tell me that you can sink a dam faster with an excavator than I can with a dozer.

Quote: "I will clean and SEAL a dam with an excavator so much fast than a Dozer there is comparison." Unquote.
(I think you mean that there is NO comparison so I will work from that perpective.)

With that in mind, consider this proposition. You have to sink a dam 140 feet long by 110 feet wide and 16 feet deep. Total water level capacity, 7,444 cu. yds. You have to over-excavate the topsoil layer by about 6 feet, to a depth of 3 feet,to allow for claying up to seal the dam. You then have to replace that over-excavation with clay from the second layer to seal the dam. You are required to finish up with 3:1 batters so that weak livestock can still negotiate those batters to be able to get a drink and the dam must finish with an oblong/rectangular shape and have square corners.

How many times would you have to handle each bucketful to get it to its final destination? How many cubic yards of material would you have actually moved with all that double handling before you had actually completed your 7,444 cu. yd dam? How much time would you have to spend track-rolling ALL the batters to get any sort of compaction at all, never mind the compaction that a dozer will get as it pushes each bladeful of material out and up the bank?

I have also sunk a 165 cu. yd dam with a Cat D8H. 50 feet square on top, 13 feet square on the bottom and 6 feet deep. In 2 hours neat, including cleaning up any and all windrows and making an overflow.

Quote: "I speak from hundreds of jobs and years of experience so it is not just an estimation." Unquote.

I'm only a mug amateur and still learning. My apprenticeship is still in its early stages at just over 42 1/2 years full time and about 9 years before that part-time, so I still have a bit to learn. And, I've only sunk dams with dozers, track loaders and scrapers. From my observations, I could sink a dam with an excavator a whole lot better than most of those that I have seen done with an excavator in the past. I've even had to build one that dam that HAD to leak. Go figure.

Quote: "Everyone I know does it the same way I do, so it is not just me." Unquote.

Maybe everybody YOU know does do it the same way. I'm not in a position to comment on that. What I AM in a position to comment on is that NOT everybody in the whole of the rest of the world does it that way. Dozers are still the machine of choice for most of the medium-sized dam/pond excavation that I see. For larger dams, scrapers come into their own due to the longer haul distances but dozers are still in there, either pushing the scrapers, cleaning up after them, or both.

Quote: "You can keep using your dozer or loader to clean dams, but no one will hire you to do a job???" Unquote.

Nowhere in my post did I ever claim that a dozer or a loader was as good as an excavator for CLEANING dams or ponds. I only said that a dozer will leave an excavator for dead in sinking dams and ponds. I stick by my original statement. I would also point out that we DO get a LOT of work for the dozers and loaders, despite there being a large population of excavators in the area.

Quote: "Dozers were obsoleted out when excavators were modernized." Unquote.

So why are stripping shovels and draglines dying breeds in large mines and why are dozers being used to bulk push overburden so much in those same mines? Sure, you see LARGE excavators and hydraulic face shovels loading dump trucks, 'cos dozers can't load trucks without a chinaman or similar equipment. That does not negate the fact that a LOT of large dozers are currently being used to bulk push overburden where it is economical to do so.


Quote: "Now can you tell me why I might think that?" Unquote.

Quote: "Not sure what your last sentences was supposed to mean?" Unquote.

O.K., I'll tell you what it is supposed to mean. It is supposed to mean that I have a LOT of experience that tells me that you are talking a lot of garbage about excavators and what they will do when compared to dozers or track loaders. Let's go back to the Tree Clearing Day thread, where I posted the photos of clearing some trees with a Cat 943 track loader. You claimed that you could deal with those trees quicker than the 943 track loader that I used to clear them with. Boy, I'd like to see that. That 943 will travel from tree site to fireheap faster than your excavator and back again even faster still. I had no problem knocking down any but the last one of those trees and the last one didn't take me much longer than 5 minutes to knock down and less than 5 minutes to get to the heap. The whole SEVEN trees were down and on the heap in about 30 minutes and the heap was about 120 feet away from where the nearest of the trees stood. That includes all the branches and most of the smaller twigs and sprigs cleaned up and on the heap too.

I am open-minded enough to admit that there are jobs where excavators really do shine. However, they are NOT the be-all-and-end-all of contracting that you and others would have us believe. OR, IF they are that be-all-and-end-all, why are so many manufacturers still making so many other types of machines as well as excavators?

Are you by some chance a one-eyed football supporter too?

[RKO]

Deas Plant
There is no us taking to you because you have your mind made up and no other person can know any thing. I have worked all over USA/Canada along with many other countries, I have operated so many machines. You remind me a a gentleman that went with us to Korea and told us that "Dozers were the only machines and he could do anything with them" After a few weeks on the job and he had no hours operating because he would not operate other machines he changed his mine.

Like I said no use replying to you because you think the way you do things is the only way and everyone else is wrong. I have better things to do.
Thanks

[Construct'O]

Hi, RKO.
Quote: "Have you ever tried an excavator?"

Heee, heee, heee. You really have no idea who or what you are talking to here, do you? Well, let me put it to you this way. I'm just a worn-out, tired, lazy, old, has-been dozer and loader operator who just occasionally gets on an excavator and out-loads the guys who are running them all the time - or just occasionally gets on a grader and does some final trim or some other work with it almost as well as those who are doing it all the time - or just occasionally gets on a scraper and keeps up with the regular scraper operators. I have also allowed myself to be coerced into operating draglines, face shovels, backhoes, bobcats, dump trucks, mobile cranes, sideboom pipelayers and a few other things as well. Can you tell me what an Arrow hammer is? What is a Koehring 466? Or a Hy-mac 580? Or a JD 5010 or 760?

You stand there with your bare face hanging out and try to tell me that you can sink a dam faster with an excavator than I can with a dozer.

Quote: "I will clean and SEAL a dam with an excavator so much fast than a Dozer there is comparison." Unquote.
(I think you mean that there is NO comparison so I will work from that perpective.)

With that in mind, consider this proposition. You have to sink a dam 140 feet long by 110 feet wide and 16 feet deep. Total water level capacity, 7,444 cu. yds. You have to over-excavate the topsoil layer by about 6 feet, to a depth of 3 feet,to allow for claying up to seal the dam. You then have to replace that over-excavation with clay from the second layer to seal the dam. You are required to finish up with 3:1 batters so that weak livestock can still negotiate those batters to be able to get a drink and the dam must finish with an oblong/rectangular shape and have square corners.

How many times would you have to handle each bucketful to get it to its final destination? How many cubic yards of material would you have actually moved with all that double handling before you had actually completed your 7,444 cu. yd dam? How much time would you have to spend track-rolling ALL the batters to get any sort of compaction at all, never mind the compaction that a dozer will get as it pushes each bladeful of material out and up the bank?

I have also sunk a 165 cu. yd dam with a Cat D8H. 50 feet square on top, 13 feet square on the bottom and 6 feet deep. In 2 hours neat, including cleaning up any and all windrows and making an overflow.

Quote: "I speak from hundreds of jobs and years of experience so it is not just an estimation." Unquote.

I'm only a mug amateur and still learning. My apprenticeship is still in its early stages at just over 42 1/2 years full time and about 9 years before that part-time, so I still have a bit to learn. And, I've only sunk dams with dozers, track loaders and scrapers. From my observations, I could sink a dam with an excavator a whole lot better than most of those that I have seen done with an excavator in the past. I've even had to build one that dam that HAD to leak. Go figure.

Quote: "Everyone I know does it the same way I do, so it is not just me." Unquote.

Maybe everybody YOU know does do it the same way. I'm not in a position to comment on that. What I AM in a position to comment on is that NOT everybody in the whole of the rest of the world does it that way. Dozers are still the machine of choice for most of the medium-sized dam/pond excavation that I see. For larger dams, scrapers come into their own due to the longer haul distances but dozers are still in there, either pushing the scrapers, cleaning up after them, or both.

Quote: "You can keep using your dozer or loader to clean dams, but no one will hire you to do a job???" Unquote.

Nowhere in my post did I ever claim that a dozer or a loader was as good as an excavator for CLEANING dams or ponds. I only said that a dozer will leave an excavator for dead in sinking dams and ponds. I stick by my original statement. I would also point out that we DO get a LOT of work for the dozers and loaders, despite there being a large population of excavators in the area.

Quote: "Dozers were obsoleted out when excavators were modernized." Unquote.

So why are stripping shovels and draglines dying breeds in large mines and why are dozers being used to bulk push overburden so much in those same mines? Sure, you see LARGE excavators and hydraulic face shovels loading dump trucks, 'cos dozers can't load trucks without a chinaman or similar equipment. That does not negate the fact that a LOT of large dozers are currently being used to bulk push overburden where it is economical to do so.


Quote: "Now can you tell me why I might think that?" Unquote.

Quote: "Not sure what your last sentences was supposed to mean?" Unquote.

O.K., I'll tell you what it is supposed to mean. It is supposed to mean that I have a LOT of experience that tells me that you are talking a lot of garbage about excavators and what they will do when compared to dozers or track loaders. Let's go back to the Tree Clearing Day thread, where I posted the photos of clearing some trees with a Cat 943 track loader. You claimed that you could deal with those trees quicker than the 943 track loader that I used to clear them with. Boy, I'd like to see that. That 943 will travel from tree site to fireheap faster than your excavator and back again even faster still. I had no problem knocking down any but the last one of those trees and the last one didn't take me much longer than 5 minutes to knock down and less than 5 minutes to get to the heap. The whole SEVEN trees were down and on the heap in about 30 minutes and the heap was about 120 feet away from where the nearest of the trees stood. That includes all the branches and most of the smaller twigs and sprigs cleaned up and on the heap too.

I am open-minded enough to admit that there are jobs where excavators really do shine. However, they are NOT the be-all-and-end-all of contracting that you and others would have us believe. OR, IF they are that be-all-and-end-all, why are so many manufacturers still making so many other types of machines as well as excavators?

Are you by some chance a one-eyed football supporter too?

Stating the facts like they are!!!!!!!!! I would like to thank you:notworthy
AMEN:usa

[Construct'O]

Deas Plant
There is no us taking to you because you have your mind made up and no other person can know any thing. I have worked all over USA/Canada along with many other countries, I have operated so many machines. You remind me a a gentleman that went with us to Korea and told us that "Dozers were the only machines and he could do anything with them" After a few weeks on the job and he had no hours operating because he would not operate other machines he changed his mine.

Like I said no use replying to you because you think the way you do things is the only way and everyone else is wrong. I have better things to do.
Thanks

Speaking of one sided,you need to read all the post you posted again!!!!!!

Speaking of wasted time:rolleyes:

With that don't let the door hit you in the rear as you leave.:) Have a good day:usa

[Construct'O]

Speaking of one sided,you need to read all the post you posted again!!!!!!

Speaking of wasted time:rolleyes:

With that don't let the door hit you in the rear as you leave.:) Have a good day:usa

Second thought do post those pictures???????Once living in Mo. and since close to it ,i'm one that believes in " show me!!!!!" who knows i might just become a believer,or maybe NOT!:usa

[EZ TRBO]

I have listened(well looked on) at the debate going on bout excavators and track loaders. In MY opinion, every job is different, every part of the country(US) and world is different and every single machine is different. Oh yes, the operators, no matter how good or bad, are DIFFERENT. In talking about building ponds, and lagoons. Our family biz has constructed numerous ponds(from 85 acre Lake Joy in Belmont Wisconsin USA, to 1/2 acre farm ponds, and all sizes in between). Our way of building these has been with the use(for the most part) cat and pan scrapers(early years), self loading scrapers, dozers, and in the last 10 years or so using an excavator. Somtimes the borrow for the dam had to be moved a long distance, other times it was easier to push with the dozers. Many of these had some rather extensive piping, and all required very good compaction. A number of water control dams have also been built, for farmers and the DNR and alot of them were built using just a dozer.

As many of you know, Wisconsin is the Dairy State, so we have a lot of cows(happy cows don't come from Cailf.) and alot of manure storage lagoons have been built. Todays specs, from the DNR, call for a 3 foot bottom liner and a 5 foot slope liner(comes to 15 feet on a horizen view). This must be compacted to 95% compaction(the liner for sure, and the rest of the structure if the material used allows it). Using both a tractor and a sheeps foot and both self loading scrapers(John Deere 860 and 862B) we were able to maintain that compaction(somtimes the soil compositon allows for lesser compaction but 95% is a very safe number). Using these machines, along with a dozer to keep material leveld off, we have constructed numerous lagoons(last two were a 5 million gallon and a 3.5 million gallon). For this type of structure, our excavator has sat. Just wasn't needed for what we were doing at the time.

Now, back to ponds, this time filled in ponds. I have had times where a regular excavator is the way to go(cleaned one out a few years ago, that I was able to get in and 2 tosses later, the muck was far enough out of the pond to where we could let it sit and dry for the summer). Rebuilt one, that had filled in and was like a swamp, first took the excavator dug a bunch of channels to get the water to drain out(my uncle pulled himself around all day long). Then got in there with both dozers and pushed over to where the excavator was sitting, to toss it up on the bank and stock pile it. I could go on and on about different projects and different ways to go about doing them. But the same thing runs true to what i started saying in the first paragraph, EVERYTHING IS DIFFERENT! Somtimes the excavator is the best choice, other times its not. Same with a dozer, or crawler loader, or dragline, shovel, bobcat, etc, etc etc.

I myself don't want to argue with anyone(and I LOVE to argue, whether i am right or wrong, its somtimes fun to see people just get boiled over), this place is suppose to be for fun, learning, new ideas, and suggestions. I'm not going to say this one is wrong, and this one right. If it works for them, then so be it. But don't go thinking you are the ONLY one that knows the show(RKO), hmm that sounds like somthing dozer 575 says, lol.
Trbo

I got broad shoulders, strong legs and tough arms, so if you feel like tossing somthing at me(that is ligitimate) I can handle it. I am always open for suggestions and new ways of doing things.

[Deas Plant]

Hi, RKO.
I thank you for your courteous dismissal of me and my posts. Nice.

You appear to be reading into my posts that I think that dozers and/or track loaders are the be-all-and-end-all of contracting. This is not so. Or is my main crime that I am NOT a rabid excavator fanatic?

Within the bounds of reason, I will use whatever I am given to do the job I am given. Where I have a choice, I will make that choice with due consideration to all the factors/variables that I can see. I will NOT be swayed by any one-eyed fanatic's rantings about any particular type of machine. However, IF an excavator happens to be the best machine for the job, I WILL choose it.