Snorkel 120 lift computer???

[Top Dog]

We took our Snorkel 120 lift to the shop because it had quit working. The shop checked it and said it was the alternator, started charging too much, thus the computer is now shot. For a new computer and upgrade they want $30,000 to $40,000 does anyone have any ideas other than this?

[John C.]

This makes absolutely no sense at all.

I am assuming you are talking about a 120 foot manlift. I don't know which engine type you have or the manufacturer of that engine. You also don't state the manufacturer of the alternator either. I've only seen one alternator in thirty five years over charge and that was Japanese. I wouldn't think a burned harness up the boom and replacing all the machine wiring would cost that much.

Did you buy this machine new or used? Do you have paperwork that describes the updates and reasons for them? I've rewired the booms on a couple of sixty footers which only cost between $1,500 and $2,000. There were circuit boards in the basket and on the base but nothing that I would have called a computer. There were circuit breakers in both so I can't understand how a bad alternator could burn the system out.

Show us some documents or photos and I believe there might be some suggestions.

[ATCOEQUIP]

I agree with John on this one. Manlifts, like any machine, can be expensive to work on. If you destroy the boom length/angle sensor box on a JLG 110HX, that's $11,000! But 40 grand for what you describe seems a little crazy to me. I know Snorkel makes a TB120, I haven't worked on one, but I've worked on plenty of smaller Snorkels, I haven't seen anything you could call a computer, just plenty of circuit cards. Even with circuit cards, I can't see an "overcharging alternator" doing $40,000 damage. I believe I'd be finding me a second opinion shop! :)

[Top Dog]

John C.
Here are some pics of the Snorkel 120. The engine is a John Deere and the alt. is a Delco. The computers are the 2 black boxes in the pic. The reason for the upgrade was told to me that they don't make that computer anymore and to install a new one the machine would have to go to the factory and get updated with new computers. Help!!

[ATCOEQUIP]

John C.
Here are some pics of the Snorkel 120. The engine is a John Deere and the alt. is a Delco. The computers are the 2 black boxes in the pic. The reason for the upgrade was told to me that they don't make that computer anymore and to install a new one the machine would have to go to the factory and get updated with new computers. Help!!


Wow! I'm sorry I can't help much because, as I said before, I haven't worked on a Snorkel 120, don't know what kind of components it uses. I can say what your describing, obsolete parts requiring update, can happen with big manlifts. Most manlifts bigger than 80 foot boom are restricted to working within an "envelope". If you have the boom fully raised and fully extended, and started booming down; at some point the machine would tip over. To prevent this, the machine has to have various sensors on it. Chances are your machine has a sensor system that's been replaced with better and more reliable components, hence the reason why you have to update, old components won't match up with new. Just my guess. I'm still not conviced your system is trashed, though. I wish you could hook up with another quality Snorkel mechanic for another opinion. Good luck, that's the best I can do. Maybe John C can add something. :)

[John C.]

I would say you need to find a different shop. The boxes in the photos I believe are junction and breaker boxes while the big box is the switch box. There will be mother boards in both but again they are only logic cards and not really full fledged computers. Basically there are LEDs in there that tell you what is happening when you operate a control. There may be a safety issue that goes with them because of the length of the boom but I would want to see it in writing from the factory. On all the units I've worked on you could extend the boom all the way out with the boom level with the ground.

So was the shop you took this machine to a franchised dealer? Do you have a written statement from the factory that details all that has to be done to this machine? Is this an inherent defect or what is known as a defect in engineering? What is it that didn't work when you took the machine to the shop? Engine not run, controls don't work in the basket, do you have to run the machine from the ground? What is the physical complaint?

[ATCOEQUIP]

I would say you need to find a different shop. The boxes in the photos I believe are junction and breaker boxes while the big box is the switch box. There will be mother boards in both but again they are only logic cards and not really full fledged computers. Basically there are LEDs in there that tell you what is happening when you operate a control. There may be a safety issue that goes with them because of the length of the boom but I would want to see it in writing from the factory. On all the units I've worked on you could extend the boom all the way out with the boom level with the ground.

So was the shop you took this machine to a franchised dealer? Do you have a written statement from the factory that details all that has to be done to this machine? Is this an inherent defect or what is known as a defect in engineering? What is it that didn't work when you took the machine to the shop? Engine not run, controls don't work in the basket, do you have to run the machine from the ground? What is the physical complaint?



Yeah, looks like typical Snorkel stuff to me. I'm like John, I haven't seen a true "comupeter" on a Snorkel, they've always been more low tech, but they are fond of circuit cards, could be wrong on this one though. I have seen voltage spikes, or grounded circuits, burn up circuit paths on the back of cards, which doesn't take much voltage to do. Those little circuit paths are like a 1/8 amp fuse. That's what makes me think that an overcharging alternator "burnt up computer" is unlikely. Either one of those circuit paths or a rectifier would burn up before serious damage would be done. I've soldered "jumper wires" on circuit cards to repair them many times, especially on Genie and Snorkel lifts. :)

[Top Dog]

Yeah, looks like typical Snorkel stuff to me. I'm like John, I haven't seen a true "comupeter" on a Snorkel, they've always been more low tech, but they are fond of circuit cards, could be wrong on this one though. I have seen voltage spikes, or grounded circuits, burn up circuit paths on the back of cards, which doesn't take much voltage to do. Those little circuit paths are like a 1/8 amp fuse. That's what makes me think that an overcharging alternator "burnt up computer" is unlikely. Either one of those circuit paths or a rectifier would burn up before serious damage would be done. I've soldered "jumper wires" on circuit cards to repair them many times, especially on Genie and Snorkel lifts. :)

The shop that worked on it is a Snorkel approved mechanic, the price came from the factory in Kansas they said it would have to go there to have the updates and new computer installed. If you know of anyone that I could get a second opinion with I would be happy to talk to them.
Thanks Again

[ATCOEQUIP]

The shop that worked on it is a Snorkel approved mechanic, the price came from the factory in Kansas they said it would have to go there to have the updates and new computer installed. If you know of anyone that I could get a second opinion with I would be happy to talk to them.
Thanks Again


Dang, I still find it amazing. Has Snorkel been bought out by the IRS or something? They sure are wantin' your wallet! I don't know anyone in your area, me being in East Tennessee. I don't know where you are in Arkansas, but if your anywhere near Memphis, I believe Barnhart Crane still operates there. Maybe they have a whiz mechanic who could help you out. Good Luck :)

[Top Dog]

Thanks ATCOEQUIP
The shop that looked at it is Hugg and Hall from Little Rock Ar. They were as shocked as I that the factory was so expensive. I will keep looking for other ways of repair.
Thanks Again

[Iron Horse]

What can happen is the alternator , when the rectifier goes bad will send an AC current into the electrics . Your machine would have a heap of Bosch type relays for all the functions . I am guessing that the points in some of the relays are welded together or the coils are burnt out . What can also happen is the tracks on the printed circuit boards can burn out , it is not hard to jump these gaps with fine insulated wire . If this is the case , you need to scrape the insulating coating off of the tracks so the solder can tin the spot where the wire will go . I would nearly bet that your computors and proximity sensors are OK . Get a handfull of relays and change the old ones out , i think you will find during the course of the day the machines functions will come back .

[John C.]

Top Dog,
You still haven't stated what went wrong with the machine. What stopped working? The engine, the basket controls, what? How is anyone supposed to help when you don't state what the problem actually is. I'm hearing a lot of well thought out posts of what can happen and maybe why it can happen. What I don't hear is what actually happened. What is the exact reason you took the machine in for repair? What part of the machine didn't work?

[Top Dog]

Top Dog,
You still haven't stated what went wrong with the machine. What stopped working? The engine, the basket controls, what? How is anyone supposed to help when you don't state what the problem actually is. I'm hearing a lot of well thought out posts of what can happen and maybe why it can happen. What I don't hear is what actually happened. What is the exact reason you took the machine in for repair? What part of the machine didn't work?

John C.
The machine quit all functions from the basket except travel and the ground function would raise the basket but would not let it down, at that point we got a mechanic to come look at it. To load it on a lowboy he had to raise the boom all the way up and do something to bypass the computer. At that point they took it to their shop to diagnose the problem, thats when we were told what was wrong.
Thanks,

[Top Dog]

What can happen is the alternator , when the rectifier goes bad will send an AC current into the electrics . Your machine would have a heap of Bosch type relays for all the functions . I am guessing that the points in some of the relays are welded together or the coils are burnt out . What can also happen is the tracks on the printed circuit boards can burn out , it is not hard to jump these gaps with fine insulated wire . If this is the case , you need to scrape the insulating coating off of the tracks so the solder can tin the spot where the wire will go . I would nearly bet that your computors and proximity sensors are OK . Get a handfull of relays and change the old ones out , i think you will find during the course of the day the machines functions will come back .

Iron Horse
I hope you are right, I am going to try to get another opinion on this if I can find another mechanic to look at it.
Thanks

[John C.]

OK, now there are some things that can be discussed. It sounds like you are an owner or operator and not a mechanic. I don't know what the mechanic you hired did but I don't think I would have hauled that machine off to their shop for repairing an electrical system. I might have brought it home for repairs. It doesn't take any special equipment to troubleshoot and repair that type of problem. Have you been to their shop and what does it look like. Franchised dealer shops are usually a lot better equiped and kept clean than a shade tree wrench.

Usually you can open the doors on the boxes on your machine and there will be LED lights that come on when you actuate certain functions. As Iron Horse states there are a bunch of relays that could be bad and need checking. The lights usually tell you what to look for. With the boom being able to be raised and the mechanic finding a way to "Bypass the Computer" to lower it, I have to wonder about the power source and the wiring. It is possible your repair people got a price for a refurbishment or rebuild on the entire machine instead of just the repair.

In my mind I can't justify it costing that much to repair any electrical system in that type of machine. Finding a mechanic you can trust is your first step. You might also call the factory direct and check on the statements made by the people who have the machine. I found their web site and got the service page that should give you some information on who to contact.

http://www.snorkelusa.com/TechnicalSupport.aspx

[ATCOEQUIP]

I just spent a few minutes cruzing around the Snorkel website. I don't know year model we're working with, so I looked at several, ranging from '97 to '05. Inside the lower control box looks like usual Snorkel; terminal strips, relays, diodes. I don't think there's even a PC card in there. The only part I see that could be spendy are the EMS controllers, the two black boxes to the right of the battery in the picture posted. They might be non-repairable units, I didn't see a schematic of their innards. With that said, if a manufacturer made a component like this that could get fried without protection from spikes, AC current, short circuits; I'd be amazed. One box is the primary EMS controller, the other is a back-up EMS controller, probably for redundancy, but doesn't that tell us that if A craps out, B will take over??? From what I can tell, the machine is typical Snokel low tech stuff. They use two "string pots", probably cable reels with potentiometers to measure boom lenth, and two boom angle sensors; all to give necessary info to EMS controllers for operating envelope. I still don't see a 40G repair. If anything, their talking replacing both EMS controllers and Snorkel is ridiculous proud of them! :)

[Top Dog]

Thanks I looked at the website and will call them to verify
Thanks again, ATCOEQUIP

[Top Dog]

Thanks guys,
We called Snorkel today, talked to tech. after some investigating. We sent the black boxes to Snorkel for testing, hopefully we should hear something next week. I think the shop that worked on it was trying to hit a homerun on us.
Thanks again

[ATCOEQUIP]

Thanks guys,
We called Snorkel today, talked to tech. after some investigating. We sent the black boxes to Snorkel for testing, hopefully we should hear something next week. I think the shop that worked on it was trying to hit a homerun on us.
Thanks again


Let's hope you get some better news this time around. ;)

[John C.]

Nice to hear you got a chance to throw them out a first base.

Good Luck!

[Top Dog]

John C. and ATCOEQUIP
We heard from Snorkel factory today, the black boxes we sent them last week turned out they were good so when we get them back we will call the factory tech's and try to find out what is wrong with this thing. The shop that worked on it will hear from me this week.
Thanks again

[ATCOEQUIP]

John C. and ATCOEQUIP
We heard from Snorkel factory today, the black boxes we sent them last week turned out they were good so when we get them back we will call the factory tech's and try to find out what is wrong with this thing. The shop that worked on it will hear from me this week.
Thanks again


Man that's great news!!!! Pass on what the machine model and serial number is, and year model (if possible). I'd like to do a little research on the machine, no charge of course! ;)

[John C.]

Thanks for the update and good luck on the repair!

[Top Dog]

ATCOEQUIP, Ill get you the model and serial #s and the year, any help would be great.
Thanks again

[ATCOEQUIP]

ATCOEQUIP, Ill get you the model and serial #s and the year, any help would be great.
Thanks again


Hey, curiosity doesn't kill cats only. It affects mechanics as well. :)

[Top Dog]

ATCOEQUIP, The serial # 09105390592 the model TB120CU it is a 1992 model. We got the boxes back today, will install them Monday and call Snorkel to see if we can find out what is wrong. If you find anything with these #s let me know.
Thanks

[Xcopterdoc]

I've worked on several of the tb120's. The EMS system is a pain. But I will say I have never seen one of the ems boxes go bad. Every lift problem I've had has been because of a limit/safety sw. The TB 120 will not let you go above a certain height or extend the boom unless the axle is extended and the lock pin is reinserted in the hole. You can not fully extend the boom unless you raise it past a certain height. So there for, you can not come down unless the boom retracts. Usually it's automatically. If not, the EMS will squak and you boom in, then down. As stated, you operate within a very tight envelope of height vs extension. If it were me, I would be looking at the telescope limit sw, of which I think there are 2 and they are on the left side of boom, if you standing in the basket. They are mounted to a chessey bracket that is easily bent. Lil boxes, 2 inches top to bottom, 3 to 4 inches long, lil roller on end of arm. It may be sensing that the boom is too far extened and wont let you come down, but it will let you go up. Some had an EMS overide on the ground side controls just in case of emergency. These older 120's and such were old school man killers that were retrofitted with every safety sw known to man using the technology of the day! The new booms are soooo much easier.

[Top Dog]

Xcopterdoc,
We have got the black boxes on it just have not had time to work on it might get to do some work on it tomorrow, you could be right one of the switches you are referring to has a broken wheel. You would have thought the shop that had it would have checked it....Sorry, this is the same shop that said it would cost 30 to 40k to fix. I feel better about this already, knowing it has to be something simple.
Thanks Again

[ATCOEQUIP]

Xcopterdoc,
We have got the black boxes on it just have not had time to work on it might get to do some work on it tomorrow, you could be right one of the switches you are referring to has a broken wheel. You would have thought the shop that had it would have checked it....Sorry, this is the same shop that said it would cost 30 to 40k to fix. I feel better about this already, knowing it has to be something simple.
Thanks Again

When you get around to working it, give us a good detailed description of what it does, from basket controls as well as lower controls. The more detail you give makes it easier to figure out what's causing your problems. ;)

[Allstock]

I have performed the updates on two of these machines.
The customers bill was 22,000 dollars. Our cost on the parts were 11,000 dollars.
It took about one week per machine for the retro fits.
I have some used angle sensors, string pots, primary and secondary computers, and lower junction boxes that are still fully assembled if you happen to need anything.

Bobby

[Top Dog]

I have performed the updates on two of these machines.
The customers bill was 22,000 dollars. Our cost on the parts were 11,000 dollars.
It took about one week per machine for the retro fits.
I have some used angle sensors, string pots, primary and secondary computers, and lower junction boxes that are still fully assembled if you happen to need anything.

Bobby

Thanks Allstock
We have got it running with help from this forum, It had some wiring problems and some grounding problems. I think it had 1 limit swich bad, but the good thing is Christmas lights will go up this year without spending that kind of money. I will keep in mind the parts you have.
Thanks
Top Dog